Black denial

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J D Sauser

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Nov 20, 2004
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I disagree with the message built into this article.
American Blacks.. or as they call themselves now, Afro Americans, have had their share of styles. Yes, maybe at times in an attempt to fit into the white culture, too. But does black or of a black heritage mean that everybody who has some percentage of African heritage blood HAS to embrace the African culture(s)? And if yes, which one? There are so many!
Dominicans are not just a Nation, they have become an ethnia and have developed their own culture... which certainly will keep evolving, using ingredients of their past just like any other culture. Or do you believe there are any pure cultures around? Cultures without any outside influence?
If you are mulatto you are entitled to embrace both ingredients cultures at will without being burlesqued for your preferences and the new cultures that this may generate. So, do Jamaicans, Cubans and even North Americans... their cultures and looks differ in many ways from the African origins that there may be.

To finish this, a say from Africa: "Only the crazy and white seek to stay under the sun!"
Maybe even Africans do not all seek to compete for a deeper tan either?

... J-D.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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Isn't this the third time that article has been posted?
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Sorry CB. I stand corrected.
Drtampa, in case there was a misunderstanding, my post was not directed towards you or any of your comments here. They were directed to the OP.

Had such person done a search, he/she would have noticed that this topic has been covered multiple times in a relatively short time span.

I want to know why this type of stuff occurs often with articles concerning the DR and race written by foreign journalists who are completely clueless as how Dominican society functions (in the case of race/skin color, its not too different from some other Caribbean countries and even Brazil's versions.)

Why does this type of stuff doesn't occur with other topics?

I understand it happens a lot when potential tourists ask questions here that have been answered a million times, but it doesn't quite occurs as often when its about an article written in some newspaper unless the topic is race.

-NALs
 

ElNegrote

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Jul 31, 2007
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I disagree with the message built into this article.
American Blacks.. or as they call themselves now, Afro Americans, have had their share of styles. Yes, maybe at times in an attempt to fit into the white culture, too. But does black or of a black heritage mean that everybody who has some percentage of African heritage blood HAS to embrace the African culture(s)? And if yes, which one? There are so many!
Dominicans are not just a Nation, they have become an ethnia and have developed their own culture... which certainly will keep evolving, using ingredients of their past just like any other culture. Or do you believe there are any pure cultures around? Cultures without any outside influence?
If you are mulatto you are entitled to embrace both ingredients cultures at will without being burlesqued for your preferences and the new cultures that this may generate. So, do Jamaicans, Cubans and even North Americans... their cultures and looks differ in many ways from the African origins that there may be.
This is so ahistorical it's not even funny. Blackness and being Black in racist, white supremacist societies do not hinge on "styles"; you speak as if you're unaware of US history, or indeed of the history of non-white people in the Americas, or Europe for that matter. Are you aware of the history of slaughter and enslavement, and later de jure and de facto discrimination, based on various understandings of race and ethnicity, that African Americans (or Black Americans) experienced, or indeed, the non-Jim Crow but de facto racism and white supremacy that Blacks throughout the Americas experienced and continue to have to deal with? Are you aware, in tossing out Brazil and Cuba as part of your argument, that slavery did not end in Brazil until 1888, more than 20 years after the US, more than 60 years after Jamaica, and more than 80 years after the Dominican Republic, whose enslaved people were freed as a result of the Haitian revolution? Do you realize that it is still a struggle for Black people across the Americas--especially in non-majority Black countries, like Brazil, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela, etc.--not only to take pride in their African ancestry, but also to gain even the most basic recognition for their contributions to building most of these societies AND to be able to live in full equality in them?

And are you aware that even WHITENESS is constructed and "evolving," and that people who are now considered white (the Irish, Italians, Jews of Eastern European heritage, etc.) were not always considered "white" in the US or in other countries? This goes beyond a "style," as you label it. Also, a sizable percentage of African Americans have some European ancestry, just as "White" people throughout the Americas have some African and Indian ancestry. (In the mostly "European" South of Brazil, genetic tests have shown that 49% of the Whites have more than 10% African ancestry). This does not stop White people in Latin America from evoking "purity" or assuming superiority, does it?

Please do read the all the Miami Herald articles, not just the one on the DR, and consider the larger context of race and the African Diaspora in the Americas, and then perhaps look at some other books like Leslie Rout, Jr., The African Experience in Spanish America;
[SIZE=-1]Magnus Morner, Race Mixture in the History of Latin America; Carl Degler, Neither Black nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States; Pierre van den Berghe, Race and Racism: a Comparative Perspective; Charles Wagley, Race and Class in Rural Brazil ; John Hope Franklin, [/SIZE]From Slavery to Freedom; Mark Q. Sawyer, Racial Politics in Post-Revolutionary Cuba; and specifically on the Dominican Republic, Ernesto Sag?s, Race and Politics and the Dominican Republic; Deborah Pacini Hernandez, Bachata: A Social History of Dominican Popular Music; David Howard, Colouring the Nation: Race and Ethnicity in the Dominican Republic; Emelio Betances, State and Society in the Dominican Republic; and Michele Wucker, Why the Cocks Fight: Haitians, Dominicans and the Struggle for Hispaniola. An additional, very useful article is: Silvio Torres-Saillant's "The Tribulations of Blackness: Stages in Dominican Racial Identity," Latin American Perspectives, vol.25, no.3, issue #100 (May, 1998).
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Santiago
Elnegrote

Your point of view is certainly well founded and accurate in the US where we unfortuantely have such racial divisiveness and "awareness". However, that "disengagement" from this whole "issue" of race will be difficult to say the least.

However, here in the DR people of African race or mullatto or indian or mixtures thereof are really aren't conscious to the degrees that African American blooded individuals are in other countries. For most North Americans, black and white it can be quite refreshing to witness this somewhat unique "dynamic" in practice. In fact, sit in on a conversation of "mixed" Dominicans here on the island and the issue of race would 999 times out of a thousand never come up. Try that in the US - a group of blacks and whites couldn't make it 10 min. without at least somebody cracking a joke because of the underlying negative tension and "awareness" that is so pervasive. The solution, remember a very simple fact - there is but one "race" and color is insignificant.

I believe given the current state of affairs in the US with regard to race that the future is quite bleak. Before the "prevalent" prejudice was whites against blacks but things have shifted, blacks now are more and more predisposed to "racial" attitudes about whites, no doubt fueled by the awareness and righteosnous of their struggle. I have had quite a few good friends in who are black who have told me it is very common for blacks to hate whites. I will not hesitate to say that I have met whites who have told me the same thing in confidence but the percentage is a lot smaller. I'm certain that many African American blooded people feel now is there "time" to seek attention for how they have been slighted in the past but I believe the current "method" of affecting this leaves unfortunately little room for reconciliation.

My final thought is that the "color" of one's skin has nothing to do with one's personal value - it's all about character - after all we are of the SAME race.
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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To finish this, a say from Africa: "Only the crazy and white seek to stay under the sun!"
Maybe even Africans do not all seek to compete for a deeper tan either?

... J-D.

Allow me to fix this quote. ;)
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun
The Japanese don't care to, the Chinese wouldn't dare to
Hindus and Argentines sleep firmly from twelve to one
But Englishmen
Detest a
Siesta.
Noel Coward


More seriously, this topic is beating a dead horse! It has been discussed more times than I can count on the DR1 boards.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Santiago
Yes of course this is a beat up subject - but very necessary because we have so very far to go to get where we need to be.

People can learn a lot of good things from the Dominicans on this topic and therefore it can't hurt to be rehashed once in a while as long as it is respectful.
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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Kindly keep it totally DR related and keep it clean. On balance, I find very little DR content overall in this thread so far. I'd like to see more DR content in the next few posts.
 

Kyle

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Jun 2, 2006
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why is this subject so intriguing for non-blacks/non-latinos ? are they odd creatures to be put under a microscope ? do they come from a different planet ? do they dress funny ?

inquiring minds want to know......
 

GH10ad

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May 12, 2007
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Hi,

I'm Scottish, as white as you get. My girl is of mixed race Dominican background.

My parents always told me "take people as you find them" which means treat all people the same unless they do you wrong. So I do and it has worked fine.

Martin Luther King said "I have a dream.....that little black boys and little white boys can play together....."

Well now I live in a city in England which has the highest Black and Asian communites outside London.

Birmingham England is an example of many ethnic backgrounds living together in harmony. Inter marrying, living next door to each other, friends black, friends white. Sure there are some problems but in the grand scale of things, nothing. I would say that this area could be used as an example of people from different backgrounds living together. It is a success story. Black people, chinese people, Indian people all live in and around their white neighbours and this diversity enriches the country. The only group who there are problems with is the Pakistani/Muslim community who flatly refuse to integrate, who want britain to have muslim shariah law and who don't respect the people or customs of the country they emigrated to. A word of advice, when in Rome do as the Romans.

Although this country, Britain, and others, Spain, Portugal, Holland, France, have committed acts of evil in the colonies around the world, the rich have always treated the poor badly, regardless of race. Look at how the English treated the Scots and Irish for example. We had third world white people in a developed country!!! Ireland had famine because the neighbouring white country didn't step in to help. Millions died. Millions left, Scotland they had land clearances much like Robert Mugabe is doing now in Africa. He doesn't like an ethnic group, he bulldozers their houses down and kicks them off their land. That's exactly whay the English aristocracy dod to the Scottish people. Knocked their houses down so they had to leave, then took the land. Nice.

I have never harmed a black person in my life and they have never harmed me. Everyone is equal in my eyes and my extremely poor Scottish ancestors had nothing to do with the slave trade, we were ourselves slaves in all but name. You might not believe this but if you look into history you'll see extreme poverty in white countries because of the class system. The haves and the have nothings.

World history is very complicated - it is not all as simple as all black people are the good guys that the whites took advantage of.

Slavery existed in Africa before a white man ever set foot there. The Nubian empire, Egyptions, Zulus, all enslaved their fellow man so slavery is not exclusively a white man's thing.

Also what is often forgotten is that African's betrayed their own people all the time to kidnap and sell people to the Spanish, Portugese, English, French. Shame on them too. There are even words and names in African languages which mean 'black slave trader'. as opposed to the names they would give the people they were selling their fellow man to.

The thing that really gets me is this. After all is said and done and people make racist opinions: white people want darker skin and dark people want lighter skin!!!! Make your mind up for god's sake!!! Go to any white country, they sell tanning products in the cosmetic shops, go to many darker skinned countries, they sell skin lightening creams and people stay out of the sun "because a tan is vulgar like a farmer or someone who is in the sun doing labour". I don't get it either.

Some whites are racist to blacks, some blacks are racist to whites. Some whites are racist to chinese some blacks are racist to chinese. And vice versa. Not all people are racist though! Don't write off a billion people in one statement.

Some white people and black people have ancestors who were directly involved in the slave trade be it a slave or someone transporting slaves or making a living from slavery. Some whites and blacks have no ancestors who were ever slaves or ever had anything to do with the slave trade.

A final word from me. The stupidest thing I have ever heard of is to be predudiced against someone because they come from a part of the world that has more sunlight or less sunlight than you. Think about it.

"I don't like that man" Why? "because he has more melanin in his skin than me becuase he is from a hot country" Oh great.

When you look at it like this, it shows you how absurd racism really is.

I think the Dominican republic is a fascinating place the way virtually the whole country is mixed race. The people are great, the culture is great. The bad thing is that it's just another case of the rich versus the poor.

I hate to see such wealth next to such poverty but I'm proud to have a Dominican girl - she's amazing and if we have a family I will make sure our children are fully aware of their very mixed heritage and that racism is ridiculous.

I'll finish again with Martin luther king. He said "Do not judge people by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character".

Just as my parents said to me "take people as you find them".

:0
 

heldengebroed

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Mar 9, 2005
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Take a knife and cut a black person.. . His blood will be red
Take a knife and cut a white person.. . His blood will be red
Take a knife and cut a chinese.. . His blood will be red
Take a knife and cut a indian.. . His blood will be red
Take a knife and cut anybody.. . His blood will be red

Were all the same

greetings

Johan

PS my statement is not true, half of us is female and the other half is male. Lucky for us :cool:
 

Kyle

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Jun 2, 2006
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P.S.....actually, there are more women on this earth than men...

now that's REALLY lucky for us !!
 

J D Sauser

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Nov 20, 2004
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This is so ahistorical it's not even funny. Blackness and being Black in racist, white supremacist societies do not hinge on "styles"; you speak as if you're unaware of US history, or indeed of the history of non-white people in the Americas, or Europe for that matter. Are you aware of the history of slaughter and enslavement, and later de jure and de facto discrimination, based on various understandings of race and ethnicity, that African Americans (or Black Americans) experienced, or indeed, the non-Jim Crow but de facto racism and white supremacy that Blacks throughout the Americas experienced and continue to have to deal with? Are you aware, in tossing out Brazil and Cuba as part of your argument, that slavery did not end in Brazil until 1888, more than 20 years after the US, more than 60 years after Jamaica, and more than 80 years after the Dominican Republic, whose enslaved people were freed as a result of the Haitian revolution? Do you realize that it is still a struggle for Black people across the Americas--especially in non-majority Black countries, like Brazil, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela, etc.--not only to take pride in their African ancestry, but also to gain even the most basic recognition for their contributions to building most of these societies AND to be able to live in full equality in them?

And are you aware that even WHITENESS is constructed and "evolving," and that people who are now considered white (the Irish, Italians, Jews of Eastern European heritage, etc.) were not always considered "white" in the US or in other countries? This goes beyond a "style," as you label it. Also, a sizable percentage of African Americans have some European ancestry, just as "White" people throughout the Americas have some African and Indian ancestry. (In the mostly "European" South of Brazil, genetic tests have shown that 49% of the Whites have more than 10% African ancestry). This does not stop White people in Latin America from evoking "purity" or assuming superiority, does it?

Please do read the all the Miami Herald articles, not just the one on the DR, and consider the larger context of race and the African Diaspora in the Americas, and then perhaps look at some other books like ...

I have been thinking about answering to your post for a good while, because I sense you upset and I don't care to upset you any further.

However, I feel I have to reply because you seem to have read something into my post which I do not endorse at all and I can therefor not let standing here uncorrected.
I hope you will keep that in mind while reading this. This is also my closing statement to your post(s) here on the particular subject (thread). If you want to argue this further with me in particular, PM me.

I am not sure you and I are writing about the same article... I only hope you do not seriously want to say that because all the above, Dominicans should stop straightening their hair, enjoy tanning sessions on the beach and so forth and living their life their way?
The mentioned article seems to ridicule the (current) Dominican culture... from hair dressing styles (and that's what I referred the word style to [Spanish singular: "moda" or plural: "modas"]) to preferences in skin tone(s). Dominicans are extremely proud of their body, color and culture, from what I can gather... So be it. It's their culture and since it's peaceful, it's a good culture in my book and since some want to catalog them part of the Afro heritage, they should rather accept it and embrace it as part of the Afro American cultures.
So, I don't agree with the message of the particular article because the way I read it, it seems to want to lecture Dominicans into being more Afro conscious (in a way the writer has chosen to universally define Afro consciousness), burlesquing their culture as a ridiculous attempt to mimic the culture of whites. Which whites may I ask, by the way? The families who can still claim "pure whiteness" here can be counted on one hand, almost.

Looking at it from a different perspective maybe: How many white kids do you see today wearing NY flat lidded caps half way back wards with a mix of "gansta" attire today? While their parents may not particularly like that waive (I must confess, I don't care much for some of the HipHop and Rap messages)... but in a strange way it is braking that racial ban of how people have to dress or not, based on their skin color, financial or social back ground. Still, a white kid would yet be ill advised to try to hang around some parts of the Bronx or Brooklyn (just to mention a few of the foremost places) showing off his newest 50cents banded acquisitions, uninvited.
By the way, I do in not way believe or try to make the argument that HipHop and Rap is the only form of Afro American identity, I am just mentioning it as one (maybe arguably bad) example.

I think that the messengers of such thinking like the one displayed in that article would be rather well advised to learn a lot from the Dominican culture, because while many here are very well aware of the atrocities part of their ancestors as well as many other ethnias have suffered in the past (and in some cases, still do today), there is almost no anger here. Anger only fuels racism.

Now, I hope the above will not make you angry... it would not have been intention.

... J-D.
 
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