Expat bubbles

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Reading and taking part in Chip's thread, I was reminded of the different bubbles people live in - a recurring theme of AZB's posts. He is quick to point out that the north coast expat bubble where Dominican life is summed up as motoconchos, mondongo and bachata is not the full picture when it comes to DR life, that there is another world, the one that he inhabits in Santiago, with all the affluence and sophistication, more even, that many of these gringos could ever dream of for themselves.

So far so good, and fair enough. I find myself reacting in much the same way when a poster says, in response to a question about Japanese restaurants, that he didn't think Dominicans would go for that, what with them all being rice-and-beans type people really. :rolleyes:

However, there are other 'bubbles' in the DR that many posters appear to be unaware of. They, like the Santiago and Santo Domingo jeepetocracies, are by no means the majority (that claim goes to the 'barrio' culture which due to poverty and poor education comprises the majority of Dominicans), but they are also part of Dominican society.

Just because you don't move in those circles it doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm talking about the people I mentioned in Chip's thread - the 'alternative' types who don't conform to all the rigid conservative codes yet still manage to be useful members of society. These are Dominican journalists, artists, musicians, social workers, academics, campaigners etc. who do not worship jeepetas, and are cultured and educated, tolerant and low-key. Add to this a couple of successful business people with a social conscience and who are confident enough not to feel the need to be ostentatious!

The point being that the population of the DR is large and diverse enough for most people to find their niche.
 
Sep 20, 2003
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Good point, Chiri. A point that many posters have been trying to make for years. I've met a lot of interesting people in the Dominican Republic. I've met people from some of the DR's most elite families, ex-President's, army generals, cabinent ministers, artists, journalists, etc. The DR is a much more cosmopolitian place than many ex-pat's realize.

It all depends on the type of person you are. What kind of circles did you move in back in your own country? What activities were you involved back in the United States or Europe? What kind of activities are you involved in here? I can't imagine people arrive in the Domincan Republic and are suddenly transformed into aristocrats. Just because some don't see certain activities, doesn't mean they are not going on.
 

Adrian Bye

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Chiri, you know I'm a fan! While we definitely have some of these people in Santiago, I wish we had a lot more (and that they then decided to run the place). :)
 

Sharlene

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Just because you don't move in those circles it doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm talking about the people I mentioned in Chip's thread - the 'alternative' types who don't conform to all the rigid conservative codes yet still manage to be useful members of society. These are Dominican journalists, artists, musicians, social workers, academics, campaigners etc. who do not worship jeepetas, and are cultured and educated, tolerant and low-key. Add to this a couple of successful business people with a social conscience and who are confident enough not to feel the need to be ostentatious!

The point being that the population of the DR is large and diverse enough for most people to find their niche.

Exactly the type of people that I mixed with and felt comfortable with back home in the UK.... Unfortunately I'm finding them a bit 'thin on the ground' here in Sosua....but I live in hope! ;)
 

DR Mpe

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Mar 31, 2003
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I've met a lot of interesting people in the Dominican Republic. I've met people from some of the DR's most elite families, ex-President's, army generals, cabinent ministers...

And the above mentioned people (with some exceptions) is the main problem for DR... I have much more respect for the mother with three babies, working for 150 pesos a day, occasionally goes home with a gringo because there are no food at the table.... Ok, her fault, first baby at 15-16 with a motoconcho that now do not have money/do not care. Right?? No!! Lack of education is the problem... and if u pay a teacher 10, 20, 30, 50 times less then the above mentioned people... the education will be bad.

It is a shame seeing the above mentioned people running around in there fancy SUV with ridicoulous salaries doing nothing for the country.

Ok, I do no like the motoconcho phenomen, the amount of whores, the traffic chaos etc. ...but this is what you get when you have a small amount of very wealthy people that do not want to share doing **** and a LOT of poor people with poor education...

My 2 cents
 
Sep 20, 2003
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"It is a shame seeing the above mentioned people running around in there fancy SUV with ridicoulous salaries doing nothing for the country." DR Mpe



Most of the people I met were involved in bringing down Trujillo. So, I guess at some point they did do something for the country.
 

Lambada

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Exactly the type of people that I mixed with and felt comfortable with back home in the UK.... Unfortunately I'm finding them a bit 'thin on the ground' here in Sosua....but I live in hope! ;)

If you consider also the gringo population, worth reaching out to the volunteers, NGO people. I know some of them are only here on a short term basis but the longer term ones are completely different from baby-boomer retirees etc. Puerto Plata isn't exactly the cultural hub of the universe but it does have a lot more going on than most people realise & it does have Dominican artists, writers, sculptors etc. Worth attending a few events at the Casa de Cultura and meeeting people there.
 

alicious

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Oct 2, 2007
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EXCELLENT post Chiri!

I think the one of the issues lies in the fact that a quite a few (not all!) of expats do not try to assimilate into the general DR culture.

Where as when ppl of other nationalities move to their country, they are the first to be upset at any sign of non conformity...

Anyways..my point being, that a lot of the expats who refuse to assimilate have their own "bubble" as you call it, and we hear quite a bit from this view point.

the north coast expat bubble where Dominican life is summed up as motoconchos, mondongo and bachata

There is also the group who try to fit into the upper class in the DR, those are the ones who are (in general) very concerned about out wards appearance, and we also hear quite a bit from them and their "bubble", because they want others to know that they are included in the high class circles.

....in Santiago, with all the affluence and sophistication, more even, that many of these gringos could ever dream of for themselves....like the Santiago and Santo Domingo jeepetocracies


Now the "bubble" we seem hear the least of, is the one that most ppl would actually fit into....
the 'alternative' types who don't conform to all the rigid conservative codes yet still manage to be useful members of society. These are Dominican journalists, artists, musicians, social workers, academics, campaigners etc. who do not worship jeepetas, and are cultured and educated, tolerant and low-key. Add to this a couple of successful business people with a social conscience and who are confident enough not to feel the need to be ostentatious!

These are the type of people, that in my opinion, a lot of us would have come from back in our own countries...

Why is it then that many foreigners never end up there? Or maybe it's just that they are more quiet about offering advice and help and don't talk about themselves so much on the board...I'm not sure..
 

Chirimoya

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Why is it then that many foreigners never end up there? Or maybe it's just that they are more quiet about offering advice and help and don't talk about themselves so much on the board...I'm not sure..
They do, especially in the international NGO sector but also in the arts, media, etc. One person I know IRL in those circles as well as on DR1 is macocael, who has been quiet for a while, and several others who have come and gone.

The rest simply don't post on DR1 - as far as I know, anyway.
 

alicious

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Ok..well that's good to know...so it's not that they do not end up there..it's just that we don't hear as much about them on DR1... :)
 

Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
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EXCELLENT post Chiri!
Agreed.

I think the one of the issues lies in the fact that a quite a few (not all!) of expats do not try to assimilate into the general DR culture.
After more than 10 years here, I think the Dominican culture has so many vices that it is much better for an expat to stick to its western values. Rich & poor Dominicans shouldn't be taken as role model, quite the contrary...


Where as when ppl of other nationalities move to their country, they are the first to be upset at any sign of non conformity...
That's a touchy subject, and it might stir some controversy...
-Would you welcome the culture of someone who is allowed to stone a woman to death if suspected of adultery ?
-Would you welcome the culture of someone who believes it is fundamental to cut all prebupere female's clitoris so they remain pure for their life ?


Anyways..my point being, that a lot of the expats who refuse to assimilate have their own "bubble" as you call it, and we hear quite a bit from this view point.
In all peace of mind, I think staying inside one's own "gringo bubble" is a lesser evil...
 
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alicious

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That's a touchy subject, and it might stir some controversy...
-Would you welcome the culture of someone who is allowed to stone a woman to death if suspected of adultery ?
-Would you welcome the culture of someone who believes it is fundamental to cut all prebupere female's clitoris so they remain pure for their life ?

In all peace of mind, I think staying inside one's own "gringo bubble" is a lesser evil...

I was debating weather to post that comment or not, because I don't want to create any controversy, I was just commenting on something I had noticed while living in POP...

And by no means do I intend to generalize all expats, or all expats on the North coast, just something I observed...

I would def. not agree with those issues you mentioned from other countries, and I don't think anyone moving to any country should ever be forced to assimilate 100%. You have to give and take a bit equally.

However, what I found intresting, was that the ones who didn't want to assimlate at all i.e. not knowing more than 5 or 10 words of Spanish after living there for 10 years +...etc. Were the ones who would also be the first types to complain about foreigners in their home country not knowing any English after being there for 10 yrs...

It may be a bit off topic..but I was using that as an exmample for one of the "bubbles"...

I don't mean assimlate in the way of them loosing all their homeland morals and values and becoming totally Dominicanized...

But at least adapting to the genral flow of life...learning enough Spanish to communicate, and having at least a bit of a mix of Dominican friends and other expat friends...
 
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Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
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However, what I found intresting, was that the ones who didn't want to assimlate at all i.e. not knowing more than 5 or 10 words of Spanish after living there for 10 years +...etc. Were the ones who would also be the first types to complain about foreigners in their home country not knowing any English after being there for 10 yrs...
I agree with you on that one. I am not a native english or spanish speaking person. I had to learn both. I believe I can read and write them equally. As a matter of fact I speak proper spanish, with most S'es at proper place.
Some days ago, I was at an american's house. He's there since about a decade or so. He refuses to speak a word of spanish... That strikes me as a very dumb attitude.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Nice post Chiri. It really got me thinking about things and I realized even back home in the US I had problems finding the right bubble. It didn't help that my wife is about as antisocial as they come but even before that I find that my Catholic values was more or less incompatible with a lot of socializing. I'm talking about with professionals, etc. I find that back home after a few drinks guys inevitably start talking about women's body parts, blacks, Jews or homosexuals. I am as red blooded as the next guy when it comes to women but I have never felt it right to talk this way about women. As for homosexuals, I don't agree with their lifestyle one bit, but have a problem ostracizing people becasue of issues they have. The odd thing is that inevitably I was pegged as homosexual, which couldn't be further from the truth. I eventialy chose to associate with like minded people, more or less that would be considered "religious".

However, here in the DR, that has become a problem, becasue the Protestants here see Catholics mostly as heathens becasue they drink and smoke, so I really have a difficult time getting their confidence because I am Catholic. I have had a problem with making real friends in these almost two years here in the DR who on the low end of the economic scale(with the exception of my wife's family and one of my best friends), not for lack of trying, but I believe mostly due to the fact that they really feel uncomfortable around me or they want to see me as their Patron or Don - someone who has a wealth of money to spend and uses them for errands and such. I have identified this problem as being part of the more or less classisit society here and a healthy dose of ignorance many poor Dominicans have when it comes to the wealth of foreigners.

Nonetheless, when I do make friends, it inevitably seems to work out better when they are professionals or have their own business, that way they aren't intimidated by me or my "wealth". However, one doesn't necessarily even need to have a lot or real friends here because Domincans are so much more open and nice in general. In other words, it is easy to have a bunch of acquaintacnces that one can get together with and have a few beers and laughs etc. The other thing I like is that, even though Dominicans like to talk about women, it isn't like revisting a porno movie like back home, they will say, "look at that women, what a fine figure, or what a fine women". This is certainly much more acceptable for me and I have no problem agreeing.

So in a nutshell, I have always had a problem fitting even back home, but have realized that I would rather maintain my dignity and beliefs than sell them out just to fit in. Also, in spite of the problems I have had with a few elitists here in the DR, I generally have been more successful at socializing.
 

AZB

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Jan 2, 2002
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Let me clarify this. I am amazed to see how some people just don't get it day after day. I have a feeling some people will never get it.
Its not that we are trying desperately to fit into a certain upper circle of this Dominican society. You folks make it sound like we go out of our ways to act and imitate like the society folks of this city (Santiago).
Let me tell you in simple words. No thinking involved here so please pay attention.
We don't imitate or put in any efforts to assimilate in to this culture. Either you belong there or not. Simple as that.
I would never feel comfortable walking about in old sneakers and faded T shirt, with messed up hair as if I have just gotten up from a long sleep. its just not my style. I do not dress up and take a shower to impress anyone, I feel better when my shoes are clean and my clothes are pressed and fresh.
I do not enjoy talking to people who have nothing to offer me in the intellectual field. This include CNN brain washed north Americans as well. I like to have a healthy and informative conversation with people who know something about life on international level. I hate folks who get up in the morning thinking of drinking a cold beer. I hate people who talk in ghetto gibberish (english or spanish). I simply don't enjoy sharing their views. This is not me.
I cannot see myself falling in love with a girl who lives in a dangerous ghetto, whom I met in a cheap bar and now I dream about marrying her to start a family. This is just not me.
I cannot find myself listening to bachata in some cheap carwash, loaded with hooker waitresses. I will not have jobless friends who spend all their time in sosua streets looking for easy preys.
I don't see myself hanging out with motoconchos and gomeros and call them my close friends. I just don't have anything in common with them.
I didn't do these things in NYC or atlanta and non of my family members think differently than I do. So why should I change here?
We do not do anything out of the way to be accepted by anyone. We are like this, thus, we are automatically attracted by certain groups of the society who have everything in common with us.
Is this simple enough for you folks? Need I change some words to make it more simple?
Are there any people left in north america who can actually think with their own minds and see beyond the words, racism, color of skin, money etc?
AZB
 
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SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
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Are there any people left in north america who can actually think with their own minds and see beyond the words, racism, color of skin, money etc? AZB
I would say that you definitely can't.

Afraid of bursting his bubble and/or offending others in similar bubbles?

From what I have read he is perhaps the most prejudice person on here putting down the Dominican people because of WHERE they were born. I live and associate with people from the poor barrios just about everyday. I treat everyone the same. I could care less if they are rich or poor.

His bubble remarks refers to Cien Fuego, Monte Rico, etc. as dangerous.
Places decent "ex-pats" do not go, well, the only difference between those women that he calls low life because they live in a poor barrio and his women is the cost of upkeep.

Try Herradura, now that's a dangerous place. My wife is from there and her family still live there. And yes I visit there also. I have no problem telling people that. Some are afraid to speak because they don't want to offend the people in these so call "bubbles" on DR1.

My wife and I met AZB at the Santiago party that was held at MrMike's. He socialized with my wife and she thought highly of him (Guess he did not know she was a poor barrio young lady).

BTW, she has her American citizenship now and I have my Dominican residency. My Spanish is bad even after many, many years, but I don't let that stop me from socializing with the Dominican people here. I'm just too dumb to learn better Spanish, but I still try.

It's "these" bubbles that keep many from posting on DR1.

How many of you have been called on the carpet for posting off topic, then have that same person post off topic and carry on a conversation with a friend? And no one calls them on it?

You are just in the wrong bubble.

Do as I say, not as I do?

I bet most of you can put names to that statement, even if only in "private"!


Don's Bubble SantiagoDR
 
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S

sokitoumi

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are there two chips.....coz your last post seems to go against everything you said about tolerance of others etc in your post about your daughters school
 

alicious

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I agree with most of what you said Don...
But I really can't make comments on ppl I don't know..I was commenting as I mentioned on the ppl I have seen with my own eyes in the DR and how they were...
To my knowledge, they were not DR1 posters...but you never know ;)
I do find a lot of AZB's posts offensive...on the other hand what he says does represent how a great majority of Dominican's think...so he is knowledgeable and his posts are informative no matter how much I may be against some of the views...
But imagine how boring the world would be if we were all in the same *bubble*... ;)