Baninter Sentencing: Guilty, Guilty!!

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GringoCArlos

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Jan 9, 2002
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In the Dominican justice system, it doesn't matter what the verdict is. Right now, I will bet that Sr Baez is not back in a jail cell for more than a total of a week anytime in the next 20 years, and that he will NEVER pay more than 1 million pesos of whatever fine that is eventually determined that he must REALLY pay.

The losers are the dominican people, for the losses caused by this case, and because much of the first world will see that in any case, even one as big as this one, justice in the DR is never realized.
 
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CarpeDReam

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Feb 17, 2006
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GringoCArlos said:
In the Dominican justice system, it doesn't matter what the verdict is. Right now, I will bet that Sr Baez is not back in a jail cell for more than a total of a week anytime in the next 20 years, and that he will NEVER pay more than 1 million pesos of whatever fine that is eventually determined that he must REALLY pay.

The losers are the dominican people, for the losses caused by this case, and because much of the first world will see that in any case, even one as big as this one, justice in the DR is never realized.
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That's a huuuge assumption...this is not the case 100% of the time to say such a thing...

you epitomize the pessimism on this forum...it's never enough... if the verdict wasn't "guilty" (which many assumed and claimed that's how it would play out bc, let's face it "this is the DR we're talking about")...ppl would complain and use it to show how imcompetent the DR is...and now that the verdict is guilty (surprise surprise)...still we find all the negatives we can find...it's almost like some ppl want the DR to fail, they want to find more proof on how corrupt of a country it is just to prove themselves right...es como burlarse del pais...
 
Squat

Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
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My bet is that GringoCarlos'post is 100% right on the money... Time will tell...
 
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Rocky

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I think that it's fantastic that they found him guilty.
The strong sentence sends a message too.
If Squat & GringoCarlos are correct that he will get out of it somehow, maybe through appealing the sentence, maybe by running, then it'll be a sad moment for all of those who lost their money, and for those who worked so hard to get the conviction.
Let's hope that they are both wrong.
 
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Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
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There is a basic logical flaw in the verdicts - unless I am missing something important - how could an 'external consultant' launder the bank's money without the collusion of an insider? And if those insiders weren't the other four defendants, who was?
 
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ddalet

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Nov 9, 2005
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The answer is simple, if the outside consultant had discretion over the bank's activities, it could be argued that one party was guilty of money laundering while the other was unaware...

As an outsider it would seem naive to assume this could happen. Who knows what really happened or who knew what.

I am of the opinion that the sentence alone, whether it is carried out or not, is a step forward for the DR.

I also think that members of the previous administration should be brought to justice, that would be an even biggger step.

At least LAR has money-laundering attached to his name for life going forward, meaning that his potential for further damage (at least in the banking industry) is limited.
 
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aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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dr1 Daily News, ..

<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4" width="600"><tbody><tr><td>Decision on BanInter case
The three-judge panel, made up of Santiago Sanchez, Esmirna Mendez and Pilar Rufino, has issued its decision in the case involving the high-ranking executives of the Banco Intercontinental (Baninter). The verdict was guilty for two of the accused, Ramon Baez Figueroa and Luis Alvarez Renta, but not guilty for their associates Vivian Lubrano de Castillo and Jesus Maria Troncoso. The magistrates ordered the two guilty parties to serve 10-year jail sentences and the payment of RD$63 billion in damages and fees for violation of Monetary and Financial Law 83-02. Ramon Baez Figueroa was acquitted of charges of asset laundering, unlike Alvarez Renta, who had been accused of being an accomplice in asset laundering in the case. The reading of the sentence took over five hours. As part of the sentence, the judges ordered the sale of a series of radio stations, television channels, aircraft, a villa at Casa de Campo and vehicles, and for the defendants to pay the legal costs. The lawyers for the convicted bankers have said that they will appeal the sentences. They have 20 days to appeal.
The banking story is being carried in the business press abroad.
See 3 Dominican Bank Directors Convicted - Forbes.com </td></tr> <tr><td><hr color="#cccccc" noshade="noshade" size="1"></td></tr><tr><td> <!--- Headline 7 ---> Comments on the verdict
The editor of Diario Libre, lawyer and historian Adriano Miguel Tejada, commented that the guilty verdict has served the Dominican judicial system's best interests. While admitting that the verdict would surely be appealed not only by the defense lawyers, but also by the Office for the Prevention of Corruption (now called DPCA), the editor praised the organization and order with which the sentence was pronounced. According to Tejada, in the final analysis the most important thing is that the judicial institutions get good marks from the public and that the system proves that it works. The editor concludes that the sentence lowers the stress levels that were evident in local society, although there is a lot of interest in the authorities' failure to pursue politicians, as in the PEME case.
El Caribe newspaper carries comments by lawyer Ramon Antonio Veras (Negro) who called the verdict "a gift for impunity and a stimulus for white collar crime to continue in the country."</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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ddalet said:
At least LAR has money-laundering attached to his name for life going forward, meaning that his potential for further damage (at least in the banking industry) is limited.
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Associated Press, ..

Alvarez Renta had already been found liable in U.S. federal court in Miami for racketeering and fraud in Baniter's collapse. A Panamanian bank also filed a complaint in New York State Supreme Court against him in August for loan fraud.
 
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ddalet

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Nov 9, 2005
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thanks for your post.

As a banker, I can tell you stories of dozen high profile people who have recovered from fraud charges exponentially (unfortunately), even here in the states.

RICOH is something else, I am not familiar with it.

I WILL say this... There is no recovery in the industry from being labeled a 'Money-Launderer'. It is a life sentence.

By the way, all of those charges in the states are civil, involving a slow, long and usually lenient appeals process. In most cases, indemnizations are reduced by more than half of the original sum. It doesnt hurt that the guy has some very high profile US people pulling for him... although, and to my point, his new label as a convicted money launderer will diminish his connections significantly.
 
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Guatiao

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Mar 27, 2004
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Why is it that people criticize the Dominican justice system so much? They finally do something right, and people still say it's corrupt. If it were as corrupt as people believe then the accused would have been set free, these two men are probably in the top 10 most powerful Dominicans figures list. Ram?n B?ez Figueroa was ordered to pay $63 Billion pesos, approximately $1.85 Billion USD (calculated $34 to $1 : peso to dollar ratio), if we are to calculate the $177 Million USD that the Miami court ordered Luis Alvarez Renta to pay the Dominican government, we get roughly the $2 Billion USD. On paper this seems great, but I don't believe the government or "people" will ever see this amount, and if they do get it; I don't believe the government will use it appropriately.

I wish the sentences would have been harsher. The monetary amount to be paid is fair, but 10 years is a slap on the wrist. I wish they would have received 20 years each, although it's not good to compare apples and oranges, I am comparing this trial outcome with those of the Enron trial. Jeffery Skilling was ordered to 24 years in jail, and cannot be released before serving less than 20 years! Ken Lay was facing 45 years! Since both parties will appeal, I would love to see once they lose their appeal that the judicial system adds a special clause; i.e. stating the minimum they must serve before getting parole.

The negative comments I've read on forums are mainly aimed at the beneficiaries of the loans; such as the Listin Diario and the Baez family. Why is the Listin Diario still operating? But why would the government close such an important asset? It's a historical institution, and has some value if it is to be sold. Should the government go after the family as well? Is the family liable for the banking fraud and collapse of economy? The people who make comments such as going after the kids have no real understanding of how the judicial system works.

I still think that the real perpetrators are walking around free, and will never be convicted. Ram?n B?ez Figueroa and Luis Alvarez Renta are only pieces of a larger puzzle. I also think that Leonel's Fernandez government or the justices should be called incompetent, it was not their "fault" (entirely) that this banking scandal happened, and they did an average job in persecuting.

Guatiao
 
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Guatiao said:
The negative comments I've read on forums are mainly aimed at the beneficiaries of the loans; such as the Listin Diario and the Baez family. Why is the Listin Diario still operating? But why would the government close such an important asset? It's a historical institution, and has some value if it is to be sold. Should the government go after the family as well? Is the family liable for the banking fraud and collapse of economy? The people who make comments such as going after the kids have no real understanding of how the judicial system works.

Guatiao
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Keep in mind that the B?ez family is very very wealthy. It has always been wealthy, even prior to this Baninter fiasco, which has brought shame to that family, again. Check the history books to see why I say again.

However, because the family is rich and powerful, those who envy them for being members of the privileged of the privileged, the upper class of the upper class; are the one's demanding the entire family to be punished and go through further humiliation.

Admiration, envy, and revenge are interrelated feelings that are never too far away from each other. Where ever one is present, the others are never far behind.

A person will have admiration to another person, as long that such person believes that he has the chance to ever be like those he admires or, at the very least, be thought of in very highly terms by those he admires. The moment he is rejected or it becomes clear that he will not be equal to them in any shape or form, he develops the feeling of envy. Envy is only one step away from revenge, which comes to play when such person gets the chance to execute it.

That is all that is behind all of this, at least when it concerns those people asking for the entire family to pay.

The one's responsible for the Baninter fiasco need to pay and are going to pay for their wrong doings. Their families, on the other hand, have little to no fault.

In a murder case, the murderer gets the punishment, not his entire family and no one asks for the family of a murderer to also pay with punishment; unless that family is seen as "privileged" in one way or another. Envy and revenge has plenty to do with that "minor" detail and lack of empathy towards those who did nothing wrong, but were unfortunate enough to be related to a villain and be rich too.

-NALs
 
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Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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They can't have been that ashamed - Ram?n B?ez Figueroa's full name is Ram?n Buenaventura B?ez Figueroa.

Making the family pay is only fair is the money they have in their possession can be traced to the bank's illegal activities. Is this the case here?
 
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korejdk

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Dec 29, 2006
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I don't see what's the difference between the american banks frauds ( Enron, Subprime toxic waste etc ) and this fraud...perhaps it's that the americans are doing it in a subtle way and at a scale that it would shake the whole system if one would really go after 'em...to begin with the Fed Reserve is the biggest fraud. My take on this one is that they ****ed off the wrong person(s)...
 
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Guatiao

El Leon de los Cacicazgos
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Guatiao said:
I still think that the real perpetrators are walking around free, and will never be convicted. Ram?n B?ez Figueroa and Luis Alvarez Renta are only pieces of a larger puzzle. I also think that Leonel's Fernandez government or the justices should be called incompetent, it was not their "fault" (entirely) that this banking scandal happened, and they did an average job in persecuting.
Click to expand...

Typo; I meant to write: "I also think that Leonel's Fernandez government or the justices should NOT be called incompetent, it was not their "fault" (entirely) that this banking scandal happened, and they did an average job in persecuting."
 
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Rocky

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Guatiao said:
Typo; I meant to write: "I also think that Leonel's Fernandez government or the justices should NOT be called incompetent, it was not their "fault" (entirely) that this banking scandal happened, and they did an average job in persecuting."
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Would that be, prosecuting?
 
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sollie

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the system worked? US indemnizations have no bearing.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the DR has a LONG way to go on governmental levels but this strikes me as a move in the right direction. Comparing the US legal system, " indemnizations" and the name of a wealthy family "baez" is not a very good argument.

The impression of corruption in the DR is a reality, as much as I hate to say it. Do the topics discussed reveal a change?

Sollie
 
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