Natural Gas vs. Propane/Gasoline

SamanaJon

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Jun 20, 2007
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Does Pres. LF really think he is able to begin conversion of 300 Omsa buses and a large number of Concho cars to natural gas, beginning Feb. 08? Where will the filling stations be located? Has anyone in the Administration considered safety issues with natural gas storage vs the easily stored Propane? What about cost? To change a large diesel engines (buses) to Natural gas is not really an available technology that is commercially sold, to the best of my knowledge, an engine change is required. It may be had in a very expensive kit (newly developed @$4000+ USD). Am I the only one that thinks he "IS SMOKING SOMETHING THAT HIS DNCD HAS CONFISCATED?" The DR is being sold a pipe-dream. Where will all this money come from? The DR does not have money to help the victim's of Noel, how on earth will they pay for this "ENERGY COST SAVINGS MEASURE?"
 

J D Sauser

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Nov 20, 2004
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... he mentioned bio diesel in the same context too. So, I would suspect that's what they plan to do with the diesel buses.

I think ANY change here is adventurous, but then, since that's a fact, what other options are there but trying.

... J-D.
 

chola1978

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Mar 20, 2006
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As citizens of this beautiful country we need to welcome any news of change and savings plans. The technology is available and refilling stations are being plan by OTTT. In regards to storage, base on conversations with gas stations owners in Santiago They are aware of the procedures needed,is a delicate storage but no impossible. If their is a profit to be made by selling Natural Gas gas station owners will store it safely and sale it.Not in regards to conversion kits for gas engines they range fro m1200-3500USd so is not something out of the budget of this small country. Earlier this year a Alternative energy bill was pass and this are measures being taken by central government to reduce our overall Petroleum usage.
Let give positive and constructive opinions so that instead of fighting over who has a good idea. When something is plan even if is an election year. It gets done.
I am all about Alternative fuel .WE can grow Jatropha Curscas here and process the B35 diesel fuel that the Omsa buss will need. And if is successfully done I assume that the rest of the transportation industry will follow.
 

SamanaJon

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Jun 20, 2007
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CNG Option

As citizens of this beautiful country we need to welcome any news of change and savings plans. The technology is available and refilling stations are being plan by OTTT. In regards to storage, base on conversations with gas stations owners in Santiago They are aware of the procedures needed,is a delicate storage but no impossible. If their is a profit to be made by selling Natural Gas gas station owners will store it safely and sale it.Not in regards to conversion kits for gas engines they range fro m1200-3500USd so is not something out of the budget of this small country. Earlier this year a Alternative energy bill was pass and this are measures being taken by central government to reduce our overall Petroleum usage.
Let give positive and constructive opinions so that instead of fighting over who has a good idea. When something is plan even if is an election year. It gets done.
I am all about Alternative fuel .WE can grow Jatropha Curscas here and process the B35 diesel fuel that the Omsa buss will need. And if is successfully done I assume that the rest of the transportation industry will follow.

What country do you live in, chola? $1200-$3500 USD conversions, within budget for this small country? Planned and Gets Done? I do not agree! Most Fuel filling station owners in the DR cannot even comply with international standards for dispensing gasoline/diesel, I cannot imagine how they will store CNG safely? Remember, there is no infrastructure for CNG in the country, not even in Santo Domingo. Therefore, will each filling station have to have a large bulk storage CNG tank? I do not know and I think most in the government staff know even less than I do. I am not convinced as yet. Alternate fuels, yes, I agee, but lets do it properly. BTW, current Biodiesel production cannot supply 50% of the OMSA fleet. That is not the answer either. The country can reduce excess fuel consupmtions, by prohibiting all government officials (except for the Pres.) to drive or use large SUV that get <18 km/gal (governmet should ban the entire fleet and switch to small Toyotas/Nissans), and reduce the stealing of fuels by MdG, Military and Police officials, for their personal use (autos, boats, aircraft, queridas, novias etc.). ;)
 

CyaBye3015

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Jan 8, 2003
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Does Pres. LF really think he is able to begin conversion of 300 Omsa buses and a large number of Concho cars to natural gas, beginning Feb. 08? Where will the filling stations be located? Has anyone in the Administration considered safety issues with natural gas storage vs the easily stored Propane? What about cost?

Two things you should know about natural gas, It's lighter than air so in many aplications it's far safer than Propane.

The other is that it does not compress as well as Propane so it's more bulky to transport and store.

What's your point here? Or you just sturing the pot?
 

SamanaJon

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Jun 20, 2007
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What's your point here? Or you just sturing the pot?

My point is simply, that too many people believe everything Politicos say in their gloriously scripted speeches. If you are a believer in what was stated last week (by LF) regarding buying Refidomsa and placing NG in all carros publicos and the OMSA fleet, I am happy for you. I am not that gullable as yet. I guess you are also one that is waiting for the Metro to roll on Feb. 28th 2008? We just disagree or as you state, perhaps just stirring the pot. Your points on NG storage are valid.:cheeky:
 
Feb 7, 2007
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Almost all countiries in the world use LPG. There are some vehicles that run on natural gas. I have seen some diesel buses run on natural gas, in Europe. But that's public transport, no concho cars, etc. LPG is implemented worldwide, I don't know why they have to be unique and come up with something that really is not feasible.

As mentioned, natural gas is much bulkier. I think it takes 2 or 3 times the spece of LPG for the same substance giving same mileage. So where these tanks will be stored? On the roof? And imagine having to fill up 3 or 4 times per day... It really is not viable...
 

chola1978

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Mar 20, 2006
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Proposal are just that proposal, we as citizens might want to get involve. Personally i don't believe that switching conchos for mlGP to Natural gas is the solution to saving more but i do believe that we need to support open discussion about alternative fuel in this small country. And about B35 local production only supporting about 50% of Omsa...............well its a start. if their is a market farmers will grow jatropha, Higuera, and other green fuel plants.
PS What ar eyou doing about saving fuel?
 

Steve Costa Azul

I love Rocky's Ribs!
Jul 15, 2006
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Gas

Two things you should know about natural gas, It's lighter than air so in many aplications it's far safer than Propane.

The other is that it does not compress as well as Propane so it's more bulky to transport and store.

What's your point here? Or you just sturing the pot?

Propane is more explosive than natural gas, which is a negative, however, propane burns hotter than natural gas, which is a positive.
Steve
 

XXX

Banned
Nov 14, 2007
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gasoline prices in the DR is absolutely ridiculous. I welcome any changes that has to do with saving some money and allowe the rest of the moto- conches to actually get a car,maybe maybe one of those 3 wheelers
 

Tallman1818

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Nov 19, 2007
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I think Presidente Fernandez is counting with some sort of plan or consulting help from our friends in Venezuela, with Hugo Chavez looking for support in Latin America to continue his power in Venezuela, some of this "energy savings" ideas may be coming from our friends in south America.............
 

elkangorito

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Sep 24, 2007
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NGV's

Thailand has many NGV's (Natural Gas Vehicles) & many CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) outlets.

There are 3 types of systems available & 4 types of installation methods.

Systems.
1] Dedicated - the only fuel used in the vehicle is CNG. For petroleum powered vehicles only. Can be electronically controlled if desired.
2] Bi-fuel - only used in petroleum powered vehicles. The operator has the option to choose either petroleum or CNG as the fuel supply. Can be electronically controlled if desired.
3] Dual Fuel - only used in diesel engines. Both CNG & Diesel fuel simultaneously power the engine. Must be electronically controlled.

Installation.
1] the existing petroleum engine is retrofitted with the NGV system.
2] the existing petroleum engine is exchanged for an NGV fitted engine.
3] an OEM can fit the NGV system to its manufactured vehicles as required.
4] the existing diesel engine can be exchanged for an NGV petroleum engine. This is an inefficient but option.

Pros & Cons.
Pros.
1] Diesel engines have an increased efficiency (power) of about 25% when CNG is used with the diesel fuel.
2] Diesel engine running costs are reduced by up to 60% with the Dual Fuel electronically controlled system.
3] Very clean emissions from both petroleum & diesel engines.
4] Not quite as safe as diesel but much safer than any other petroleum based fuel.
5] Can be used with carburetor & fuel injected engines.
6] Can be either "open loop" or "closed loop" control. Closed Loop control uses an electronic control unit for optimal engine efficiency. Open Loop control is normally used with carburetor engines.
7] Fast "pay back" period (based on a typical installation, which costs about $2000.00 Australian dollars. Pay Back is expected between 30 000km to 40 000km of driving).
8] Cost of CNG in Thailand is about one quarter of the cost of petroleum based fuels, typically about $0.25 Australian per kilogram as opposed to $1.00 Australian dollar for petroleum based fuels.

Cons.
1] Petroleum engines suffer about a 10% efficiency (power) loss.
2] At the moment, is only suitable for engines up to about 12 Litres in capacity (many large buses in Australia & Thailand now use CNG).
3] Engine runs hotter, which means that valves will burn out quicker. This can be overcome by installing higher performance valves. Lubricants must be upgraded, similar to those used in turbo charged vehicles.
 

SamanaJon

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Jun 20, 2007
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Elkangorito, thanks for the technical update on Petrol/Gasoline vs. CNG vs. Diesel. Very informative. Do you have an understanding or idea how the DR will import NG and store it? Later Transport it to different locations and retail it via filling station? The only large Bulk Tank for LNG on the Island is located at the AES Andres Power Plant at Puerto Caucedo. That (cryo) tank is dedicated for their internal plant usage (Los Minas & Andres) and sometime in the future to supply Cogentrix Power Plant in SPM via a pipeline that has yet to be built. NG (natural gas) is shipped via LNG Liquid Natural Gas tankers (ships) from supply source to special receiving docks around the world for areas that do not have a natural source of NG. The price of NG, like crude oil, is traded on world markets and varies seasonally (supply/demand).
 

elkangorito

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Sep 24, 2007
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I made some errors with some previously quoted figures. Corrections in bold.

Pros & Cons.
Pros.

2] Diesel engine overall fuel costs are reduced by up to 35% to 40% with the Dual Fuel electronically controlled system.

I'm sorry but I can't comment upon the future of NGV's & CNG in the DR as I do not live there.

I recently did some work for a garage. Its' web address is So Garage
The page is mostly in Thai but the pictures tell you a lot. Petroleum & CNG prices are also shown comparatively.
 
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