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Sarah
Guest
I am searching for pro and con resources on this subject. Opinions are welcome, as well. I personally have not formed an opinion one way or the other. Thanks for your help, Sarah
Privatization of business & industry in the DR
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Natasha
Guest
I just attended a seminar at the World Bank early this week on this very subject and I haven't formed an opinion either. This is a somewhat confusing area for me, but being that I come from the social development sector, we see things slightly different from the way economists see them ;-) There seem to be too many kinks to be ironed. E-mail me, perhaps I can point you to some resources.
Regards,
Natasha
Regards,
Natasha
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arcoiris
Guest
"being from the social development sect, we see things slightly different from the way economists see them"...that is true for me too. I am interested in the social development work you are doing, Natasha. I know a very little, but could you tell us more of what your area of interest and objectives are?
About the privatization of business & industry, I only have a few general opinions off-hand. That is that I think there has to be a balance. You know in the US the Democrats have historically been for more governmental programs and the Republicans for less and more support for private capitalistic enterprises. From watching what happens depending on who is in power, it appears that a certain privileged few tend to do better under privitisation, while the general population does better when their is the sharing that governmental controls are designed to do. However, that is not to say that I support socialism or communism either. I believe, at this point, but I am willing to listen to better ideas, if there are any, that the resources which should be shared, and that all have a right to are better off governmentally guaranteed, and that enterprises that are not essential are better off private. The DR has been experimenting with privatization, and it doesn't look like it is working too well. My state has a combination when it comes to utilities like water and electric power, which are privately owned but under government control. The question also depends on who the governmental or private leaders themselves are...some can be trusted more than others so the situation can change with an election or change in ownership. There has to be a balance of control.
About the privatization of business & industry, I only have a few general opinions off-hand. That is that I think there has to be a balance. You know in the US the Democrats have historically been for more governmental programs and the Republicans for less and more support for private capitalistic enterprises. From watching what happens depending on who is in power, it appears that a certain privileged few tend to do better under privitisation, while the general population does better when their is the sharing that governmental controls are designed to do. However, that is not to say that I support socialism or communism either. I believe, at this point, but I am willing to listen to better ideas, if there are any, that the resources which should be shared, and that all have a right to are better off governmentally guaranteed, and that enterprises that are not essential are better off private. The DR has been experimenting with privatization, and it doesn't look like it is working too well. My state has a combination when it comes to utilities like water and electric power, which are privately owned but under government control. The question also depends on who the governmental or private leaders themselves are...some can be trusted more than others so the situation can change with an election or change in ownership. There has to be a balance of control.
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Sarah
Guest
You're right, that what little privatization that has happened in the DR does not seem to be working too well, so far. One argument is that in order for it to work, as it does in the US, all but the governmental agencies would have to be privatized. So what happens then in the interim, between where they are now and the years it would take to get there all the way? It seems that people in general are discouraged and want the government to take over what has been privatized recently, without giving it enough time to really work.
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Natasha
Guest
I thought that through the discussions here and on Bravenet you knew what I did, but if you don't recall, here's just a brief note. My field is education (basic education). I have been working for a little over six years with education projects in many developing countries. I work for a consulting firm here in DC and we mostly do the work for USAID and World Bank. My humble objective is to continue working with organizations that have genuine goals in improving the education levels in developing countries. That's all 
Natasha
Natasha
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Duck
Guest
Excuse me but, I work mostly in the CIS. I didn't realize that the dominican government owned all means of production etc ...
Think - Codetel, Tricom, Brugal, Barcelo, Bal Dom, ... the list goes on .... IPP's ....
Are these state owned companies? - NO - What are you actualy talking about?
Go to Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, or Azerbaidjan - then you will know the meaning of state - owned.
Think - Codetel, Tricom, Brugal, Barcelo, Bal Dom, ... the list goes on .... IPP's ....
Are these state owned companies? - NO - What are you actualy talking about?
Go to Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, or Azerbaidjan - then you will know the meaning of state - owned.
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arcoiris
Guest
Natasha, I did not have a clear idea. What aspects of education? Children? General? Health? Birth control? I am interested. I thought you were more into political type advocacy. I guess we are finally really beginning to know each other. I am glad.
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Sarah
Guest
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...
My definition of "working well" = benefiting the average person.
My definition of "working well" = benefiting the average person.
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Karen
Guest
Arcoiris, tell us about YOU
Yeah Natasha, tell arcoiris more so she can twist your words, insult you, defame you and make reading this board a holy hell
Arcoirs; Tell us all about you, no I can't, eveil people will get me..don't worry, just wear a tinfoil hat and they can't beam thoughts into your squash (Dont forget the antennae)
Yeah Natasha, tell arcoiris more so she can twist your words, insult you, defame you and make reading this board a holy hell
Arcoirs; Tell us all about you, no I can't, eveil people will get me..don't worry, just wear a tinfoil hat and they can't beam thoughts into your squash (Dont forget the antennae)
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Karen
Guest
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Sarah
Guest
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Natasha
Guest
You shouldn't assume anything, as I seldom vocalize my views on cyberspace...not my real views anyway ;-)
Regards,
Natasha
Regards,
Natasha
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Natasha
Guest
Arcoiris: What aspects of education?
Natasha: Primary education reform/policy/planning and evaluation/assessment; quality/effectiveness, and gender issues/access and equity.
Natasha
Natasha: Primary education reform/policy/planning and evaluation/assessment; quality/effectiveness, and gender issues/access and equity.
Natasha
H
Hillbilly
Guest
Well, you asked...
this is one of those topics where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
On paper, the idea is fine. Get government out of businesses iT had no business being in, in the first place. (My God, that last sentence would send an English teacher into hysterics!) anyway, that is how it was presented.
So here, the government set up a Comission to oversee things, and CORDE was slowly picked apart--especially those elements that should have made money: CEA (Sugar), CAT (Cigarettes and cigars), CDE (Energy) being the major prizes.
What most posters have mentioned, that the poor are poorer is probably true. The purchasers or leasers of these businessess are bottom line people and they don't give a hoot about political parties, except where they can be benefited by them...So the Tabacalera, for example, that employed over 1400 people was reduced to less than 300, and the Colegio La Esperanza, opened to educate tobacco worker's kids but used for political favoritism also, is now in private hands...In CEA I would imagine economies of the same order. And in CDE the same.
One thing that happened is that big business entered the DR in a big way. Mighty law firms handled the takeovers and the bidding, and it was rough. Here is some gossip: BAT (British American Tobacco) had a bid for the Tabacalera. At about 5 minutes to closing, the "CITA" representative (Canary Islands Tabacco) made a bid that effectively shut out the BAT's opportunity for a counter offer. All well and good....except that there are persistant rumors that CITA was fronting for PM-Espa?a (Phillip Morris), a firm that had been specifically banned from the bidding because it represented the formation of a monoply...who knows...?
There is tons more to be said, and this just scratches the surface, but generally speaking the 'social development' of the country will not benefit for some time to come....
Natasha and her group have the key-just like Real Estate is Location-location-location- here we need Education-education-education
Nuf said...
HB
this is one of those topics where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
On paper, the idea is fine. Get government out of businesses iT had no business being in, in the first place. (My God, that last sentence would send an English teacher into hysterics!) anyway, that is how it was presented.
So here, the government set up a Comission to oversee things, and CORDE was slowly picked apart--especially those elements that should have made money: CEA (Sugar), CAT (Cigarettes and cigars), CDE (Energy) being the major prizes.
What most posters have mentioned, that the poor are poorer is probably true. The purchasers or leasers of these businessess are bottom line people and they don't give a hoot about political parties, except where they can be benefited by them...So the Tabacalera, for example, that employed over 1400 people was reduced to less than 300, and the Colegio La Esperanza, opened to educate tobacco worker's kids but used for political favoritism also, is now in private hands...In CEA I would imagine economies of the same order. And in CDE the same.
One thing that happened is that big business entered the DR in a big way. Mighty law firms handled the takeovers and the bidding, and it was rough. Here is some gossip: BAT (British American Tobacco) had a bid for the Tabacalera. At about 5 minutes to closing, the "CITA" representative (Canary Islands Tabacco) made a bid that effectively shut out the BAT's opportunity for a counter offer. All well and good....except that there are persistant rumors that CITA was fronting for PM-Espa?a (Phillip Morris), a firm that had been specifically banned from the bidding because it represented the formation of a monoply...who knows...?
There is tons more to be said, and this just scratches the surface, but generally speaking the 'social development' of the country will not benefit for some time to come....
Natasha and her group have the key-just like Real Estate is Location-location-location- here we need Education-education-education
Nuf said...
HB
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arcoiris
Guest
Re: what I'm talking about...
sarah, I just want to say that I have really benefitted from your posts. You don't have to have a masters in economics, or a resort, or any particular authority to be helpful on this board. You have made some pretty good observations, and asked some really poignant questions...so no need get discouraged if things get complicated or beyond us. it is said, "it is the wise one who knows s/he can always learn something new; and it is the fool who thinks s/he already knows everything and there is nothing else to learn. We are growing together. ok? chin up
sarah, I just want to say that I have really benefitted from your posts. You don't have to have a masters in economics, or a resort, or any particular authority to be helpful on this board. You have made some pretty good observations, and asked some really poignant questions...so no need get discouraged if things get complicated or beyond us. it is said, "it is the wise one who knows s/he can always learn something new; and it is the fool who thinks s/he already knows everything and there is nothing else to learn. We are growing together. ok? chin up
S
Sarah
Guest
VERY interesting! And thank you Hillbilly.
"There is tons more to be said, and this just scratches the surface, but generally speaking the 'social development' of the country will not benefit for some time to come...."
Now how do I explain to some very poor ($200US or less a month income) Dominican friends in el campo to have patience, they'll benefit in the long run. I can hear them now. "What about today?" "Things were better when the government had complete control." "Let the government buy back what they sold so we can return to normal."
Fear of the unknown...it gets all of us in one way or another, doesn't it?
"There is tons more to be said, and this just scratches the surface, but generally speaking the 'social development' of the country will not benefit for some time to come...."
Now how do I explain to some very poor ($200US or less a month income) Dominican friends in el campo to have patience, they'll benefit in the long run. I can hear them now. "What about today?" "Things were better when the government had complete control." "Let the government buy back what they sold so we can return to normal."
Fear of the unknown...it gets all of us in one way or another, doesn't it?
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arcoiris
Guest
Re: VERY interesting! And thank you Hillbilly.
Maybe your friends in the campo are simple but not totally ignorant. Maybe it was better when the DR owned the electric companies and before they sold the companies to privateers who are profit oriented and not service oriented. I laughed really hard when the government itself got their service cut off for nonpayment!
Maybe your friends in the campo are simple but not totally ignorant. Maybe it was better when the DR owned the electric companies and before they sold the companies to privateers who are profit oriented and not service oriented. I laughed really hard when the government itself got their service cut off for nonpayment!
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Keith
Guest
Re: VERY interesting! And thank you Hillbilly.
Arcoiris,
I would hardly call the old CDE "service oriented" either. I lived in SD four years ('95-'99), and constantly had to live with their substandard definition of "service." I'm not simply talking about the constant blackouts, power surges blowing TVs and fax machines, low voltage playing havok with electronics, the billing errors, or the technicians seeking bribes to repair lines, or even the time when my house got mistakenly disconnected because my neighbor was behind in paying his bills. How about the time when a falling tree branch dropped our connection to the grid, and we called several times a day (plus visited the local CDE office twice) every day for a week, and CDE ***NEVER*** came to fix it. We had to hire a private electrician to re-establish connection. [Of course we were charged on our next bill as if we had been consuming power during the week off-line!]
The "privatized" system is not working well, but that's hardly surprising. There is a huge percentage of illegal connection in the country. Much of the country is still not metered or the meters not read, so billing often has little to do with real consumption. The government doesn't pay its own substantial electric bills. Maintenance of the generation systems is notoriously unsatisfactory. The tranmission system was badly in need of investment (CDE had unusually high losses during transmission). The independent regulator has never been created because the General Energy Law has been tied up in Congress since the mid-1990s (in part thanks to stalling by Pres-elect Hipolito's party, PRD).
Probably the only reason CDE did not go bankrupt before it was privatized is that the government subsidized it heavily in many ways. That contributed to the national debt, for which everybody in the DR pays in one way or another. Is that preferable?
Regards,
Keith
Arcoiris,
I would hardly call the old CDE "service oriented" either. I lived in SD four years ('95-'99), and constantly had to live with their substandard definition of "service." I'm not simply talking about the constant blackouts, power surges blowing TVs and fax machines, low voltage playing havok with electronics, the billing errors, or the technicians seeking bribes to repair lines, or even the time when my house got mistakenly disconnected because my neighbor was behind in paying his bills. How about the time when a falling tree branch dropped our connection to the grid, and we called several times a day (plus visited the local CDE office twice) every day for a week, and CDE ***NEVER*** came to fix it. We had to hire a private electrician to re-establish connection. [Of course we were charged on our next bill as if we had been consuming power during the week off-line!]
The "privatized" system is not working well, but that's hardly surprising. There is a huge percentage of illegal connection in the country. Much of the country is still not metered or the meters not read, so billing often has little to do with real consumption. The government doesn't pay its own substantial electric bills. Maintenance of the generation systems is notoriously unsatisfactory. The tranmission system was badly in need of investment (CDE had unusually high losses during transmission). The independent regulator has never been created because the General Energy Law has been tied up in Congress since the mid-1990s (in part thanks to stalling by Pres-elect Hipolito's party, PRD).
Probably the only reason CDE did not go bankrupt before it was privatized is that the government subsidized it heavily in many ways. That contributed to the national debt, for which everybody in the DR pays in one way or another. Is that preferable?
Regards,
Keith
C
CES
Guest
Re: VERY interesting!...(Keith
> > > " . . . I would hardly call the old CDE "service oriented" either. . . . "
Good post Keith!
I've worked for 40 years in the electrical construction industry and have an idea (sort of as to how power is delivered to the customers. The "CDE" evidently never quite figured out the mystery of how to do the same. (lol From what I've seen privately held companies are better at doing the job, at least here on the left coast (California, etc.).
Regards,
. . . CES
> > > " . . . I would hardly call the old CDE "service oriented" either. . . . "
Good post Keith!
I've worked for 40 years in the electrical construction industry and have an idea (sort of
as to how power is delivered to the customers. The "CDE" evidently never quite figured out the mystery of how to do the same. (lol From what I've seen privately held companies are better at doing the job, at least here on the left coast (California, etc.).Regards,
. . . CES