Differences between English and Spanish punctuation rules/conventions

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Chirimoya

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This may well be destined to be the most boring thread ever, but I'll take my chances. In English at least, punctuation has become a hot topic of late, with books like Eats, Shoots and Leaves - The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation inciting the masses to take action against greengrocers? apostrophes and other evils.

In Spanish it appears that the rules of punctuation are similar to English, perhaps with the exception of the semi-colon ";" to separate clauses - in Spanish it tends to be used in lists of names, titles and occupations. E.g. La reuni?n cont? con la participaci?n del presidente dominicano, Leonel Fern?ndez; el primer ministro brit?nico, Gordon Brown; y el presidente estadounidense, George W Bush. This makes absolute sense, but is not a convention in English grammar.

There is a way in which I notice commas being used, like here:

Leonel Fern?ndez, hab?a prometido al pueblo dominicano que el metro estar?a listo en febrero del 2008.


A comma indicates a pause, but is there really a natural pause between ?Leonel Fern?ndez? and the rest of the sentence? Is it even correct in Spanish? I see it all the time, which makes me wonder.

I also noticed that my son?s second grade Spanish language textbook covers all the problem areas like the confusion between b/v, s/c/z and the basic rules of punctuation very meticulously and systematically, yet these errors are still very common across all educational levels as far as I can tell.
 

miguel

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Dijiste la verdad....

This may well be destined to be the most boring thread ever, but I'll take my chances.
You are absolutely CORRECT......Even worse (Ohhhh help me God) than AZB's "Guacamole" thread and my "Trivia" thread....Wahahaha.(Perhaps because I am ONE of the guilty ones, haha)

I do give you a "thumbs up" for trying, ;).

JMO!.
 
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Chirimoya

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I thought maybe my fellow language geeks - if only to correct my spelling and grammatical errors...
 

Chris

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Chiri, I'm reading and don't find it boring at all. As I'm reading Leslie's interesting thread on words

Perhaps you or Leslie or Norma Rosa could give us a quick update again on basic punctuation use in Spanish? In order to make sure some of us perpetual language 'laggers' can understand what is going on.
 

mariel

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I can't quite explain why, but I wouldn't write the comma after "Leonel Fern?ndez" in that sentence. From what I remember from elementary school that would be grammatically incorrect but I can't remember why :ermm:
 

PICHARDO

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There is a way in which I notice commas being used, like here:

Leonel Fern?ndez, hab?a prometido al pueblo dominicano que el metro estar?a listo en febrero del 2008.


A comma indicates a pause, but is there really a natural pause between ?Leonel Fern?ndez? and the rest of the sentence? Is it even correct in Spanish? I see it all the time, which makes me wonder.

The comma right after the President's name denotes a pause to be taken by the reader, just as if it was to be orated to the public:

"Leonel Fernandez -pause- promised the Dominican people that the Metro was going to be up and running by February 2008"

In English I think it would be most appreciable to a listener of such speech to make the pause somewhere else now...

Commas are used to denote a pause by the speaker, not the reader per se, to make the sentence carry the actual intended message of the original context. Much like a movie script, where the original context in the work of the author is further augmented in it; the resulting action and emotional stance of the actor carries the intended message as he speaks the lines.

This is most notably made in a point used by teachers in Spanish, where they use the following sentence to make the point come across to both reader and speaker:

El veredicto es no, matarlo.
The verdict is no, kill him.


The typist used the comma in the wrong place.

It should read and be said:

El veredicto es, no matarlo.
The verdict is, don't kill him.


The improper use of punctuation is not to be taken slightly, so it?s the message of the sentences and punctuation examples.
 

Chirimoya

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I tend to overuse commas in English because I started my journalistic career on radio, and had to work from scripts, so I can relate to PICHARDO's explanation. I still wouldn't put a comma after "Leonel Fern?ndez" in either case, especially in a medium that is not meant for reading aloud, though.

Maybe it's to do with the DR being primarily an oral culture and people write as they would speak?

And yes, a comma in the wrong place can transform the meaning of a sentence, sometimes with disastrous effects.
 

PICHARDO

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Actually, books were not meant to be just read from as we think "not aloud".
Books were the primary source of knowledge, information and arts in its beginnings.
Scholars would use the center stage and read from the books very much aloud; it became extremely important for the original authors that their intended message was orated to the masses as faithfully possible.

The use of punctuation gave the authors the tools to make sure that their works would be heard, as they heard them in their own minds when composing each sentence. Pauses and emotive altos included.
It was possible this way to give the closest to a "live" oratorio from his lips to the waiting ears, conserving every passionate stroke of the words just as he emote them himself aloud.

Poetry and arts make use of this medium to the full potential most.

After all, words are the embodiment of our emotions in print...
 
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El sabelot?

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Boring? No way, Do?a Chiri.

I'd add more, especially info on recent articles I've read regrading punctuation and stuff. However, I'm sure it'll get deleted.

I still refer to The Elements of Style, which has been around since the early-1900s.
 

El sabelot?

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I also noticed that my son?s second grade Spanish language textbook covers all the problem areas like the confusion between b/v, s/c/z and the basic rules of punctuation very meticulously and systematically, yet these errors are still very common across all educational levels as far as I can tell.

...if only to correct? You know I'm the hyper-user of hyphens: my son's second-grade Spanish-language textbook... Now, that's more better...
 

Alyonka

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I don't understand why there is a comma after president's name in that sentence. I am just a beginner in Spanish, but have been exposed to translations in many languages and have not seen anything like it before ...
 

Marianopolita

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In brief-

I will just comment briefly because it's a broad topic and I do believe one must read references to understand Spanish punctuation. A few posts or a thread should not be one's source of information.

There are regional differences in punctuation in Spanish however, there are standard rules and it's best to follow them. My suggestion is to use a writer's reference for Spanish. I bought one almost ten years ago and it has been my saviour ever since. Having to write in more than one language has resulted in certain discrepancies in my usage of punctuation. However, I am aware of it and I am constantly trying to improve. Effective proofreading is also helpful when evaluating the usage of correct punctuation.

Amazon.com: The Writer's Reference Guide to Spanish: Books: David William Foster,Daniel Altamiranda,Carmen de Urioste

The example you provided is not a standard in Spanish punctuation and the notion of an "oral culture" perhaps influencing the usage might be a regional concept only. I suggest you follow the rules of Fernando ?vila's book ?D?nde va la coma? I have it and it answers the issues of punctuation in Spanish effectively. IMO, the SVO (subject + verb + object) rule should also play a factor in that sentence thus there should be no comma between the subject, the verb and the (indirect) object.

Leonel Fern?ndez/ hab?a prometido/ al pueblo dominicano// que ...... The SVO should remain undivided.

Amazon.com: Donde Va LA Coma: Books: Fernando Avila

-read the first reader's comment. It addresses the notion of oral culture.

Another observation:

The Internet has affected the usage of correct capitalization in Spanish. Websites like Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble that sell plenty of Spanish reading material do not respect the rules of Spanish capitalization in titles. This is one aspect that bothers me about both sites. Book titles are written using English punctuation rules and IMO, the titles should be written as indicated on the book. The title format used in Spanish is simple. An example is Historias de hadas para adultos, which follows the rules of Spanish punctuation correctly. Only the first letter should be capitalized unless there is a proper name in the title or the title is a proper name. On the web I often see Historias De Hadas Para Adultos. The other format I see is all letters are capitalized. I have also seen slight variations in rules for titles having consulted several sources. This is an area where I have really worked on improving because one can easily forget or disregard the rules of capitalization in titles from one language to another and because of the variations presented on the web and other media.



-LDG.
(Lesley)
 

Chirimoya

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Thanks, Lesley.

Here is the quote you refer to in your post:
Fernado Avila ense?a, entre otras cosas, que el uso de los signos de puntacion nada tiene que ver con la respiraci?n durante la lectura en voz alta. Hay reglas especificas que evitan la confusion y el doble sentido en las oraciones, que es la funcion principal de los signos de puntacion.

He says that punctuation has nothing to do with pauses, but is aimed at preventing ambiguity, as per PICHARDO's example in post no. 6.

What surprises me is how widespread this mistake is. It makes no sense, yet it is all over the DR press and in a text I was translating this week, written by someone from another Latin American country, which was otherwise grammatically sound.
 

Chirimoya

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On capitalisation: I notice English speakers using English rules when writing in Spanish, another example being the capitalisation of nationalities e.g. Dominicano instead of dominicano.
 

Marianopolita

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Clarification just in case...

Just to clarify what I was referring to in the reviewer's comment when the reviewer stated: "Fernado Avila ense?a, entre otras cosas, que el uso de los signos de puntacion nada tiene que ver con la respiraci?n durante la lectura en voz alta". That line IMO is the key aspect when differentiating between oral reading vs. silent reading. Based on that concept about oral reading one may tend to add commas where they do not traditionally belong.

Punctuation, spelling, rules of capitalization are issues across the board and then add in the factor that many people are unaware of the academic rules just exacerbates the situation regarding formal written Spanish. It is completely incorrect to write Soy Dominicano. It's an eyesore for me as for others I am sure who are aware of the rules. Yes, many English speakers make this error and many others. The days of the week should not be capitalized either. Many threads on DR1 reflect grammar and formal Spanish errors but hopefully people know to disregard them and not follow the pattern.


Capital letters are not used for:

* the days of the week and months unless it's at the beginning of the sentence.

* nationalities

* titles. Only the first letter of the first word should be capitalized unless there is a proper name in the title then it is capitalized as well.

-Spanish newspaper headings follow the rules of capitalization quite well. Spot check any of the common Spanish newspapers and you will observe correct usage.


Please do not use the Dominican press as a guide to good writing in Spanish. Chiri, you know my stance on this. I hardly read Dominican newspapers because of the flaws. If one does not know better it has no affect on him/her. Read proper newspapers. There's nothing to debate here.

That's it for me in this thread.


-LDG.
 

Chirimoya

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Punctuation, spelling, rules of capitalization are issues across the board and then add in the factor that many people are unaware of the academic rules just exacerbates the situation regarding formal written Spanish. It is completely incorrect to write Soy Dominicano. It's an eyesore for me as for others I am sure who are aware of the rules. Yes, many English speakers make this error and many others. The days of the week should not be capitalized either. Many threads on DR1 reflect grammar and formal Spanish errors but hopefully people know to disregard them and not follow the pattern.

Capital letters are not used for:

* the days of the week and months unless it's at the beginning of the sentence.

* nationalities

* titles. Only the first letter of the first word should be capitalized unless there is a proper name in the title then it is capitalized as well.
Thanks, I and others will find this a useful guide.

Please do not use the Dominican press as a guide to good writing in Spanish. Chiri, you know my stance on this. I hardly read Dominican newspapers because of the flaws. If one does not know better it has no affect on him/her. Read proper newspapers. There's nothing to debate here.
I know your stance, Lesley, but it was not just in the DR papers. I had noticed that strange use of commas in DR newspapers for some time now, and automatically assumed it was an error, albeit a common one. Then, while translating an otherwise well-written text in Spanish by a non-Dominican, I noticed it and wondered if, in fact, it may have been correct all along. You simply confirmed my suspicions.

As I follow Dominican news and don't watch TV, I have no choice but to read Dominican newspapers, warts and all. Some are better than others, but even the better ones have journalists of variable standards.
 

Αna

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Capital letters are not used for:

* the days of the week and months unless it's at the beginning of the sentence.

* nationalities

* titles. Only the first letter of the first word should be capitalized unless there is a proper name in the title then it is capitalized as well.

-Spanish newspaper headings follow the rules of capitalization quite well. Spot check any of the common Spanish newspapers and you will observe correct usage.

does that include song and album titles? because I have noticed that on most spanish singers or bands websites the first letter of each word of the song title or album title is capital.
 

Αna

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also on the cover of albums, one of enanitos verdes album covers says: Pescado Or?ginal. is that correct capitalization? what about gloria estefan's album cover which says 90 Millas?
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
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Ana-

This is an excellent observation and question. I actually forgot to mention titles on albums and songs and I am an avid collector of Latin music. Just to be absolutely precise, I just checked the writer?s reference that I have as mentioned in my first post. I will quote what is stated with regards to the rules of capitalization of titles in Spanish:

In titles of books and other works, current practice in Spanish differs from that of English. Whereas English normally capitalizes the first letter of all first and last words and all nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, and subordinating conjunctions, Spanish does not use capitals after the first word (except for those proper nouns .... that are always capitalized), pg. 77 The Writer?s Reference Guide to Spanish.

-another reference consulted also includes that the titles of newspapers and magazines are capitalized. For example, El Pa?s, La Naci?n, which are both newspaper titles. Therefore this is an exception to the rule.

From what I have observed, the usage of capitalization on albums and in song titles can be best described as whimsical. The rules of capitalization should be followed as defined above however; obviously plenty of liberty is exercised since the rules are not followed.

The example you sited of the Enanitos Verdes album title Pescado Original is just one of many that don?t follow the rules and that group is inconsistent. If you look at another album title of theirs amores lejanos, it?s all lower case. The only way Pescado Original is justified is if it?s a proper name. In general, titles of songs and titles of album covers are just another example of where the rules of Spanish capitalization are defied par excellence.

The new Gloria Estefan album, which is absolutely wonderful IMO and I have been enjoying it for the past two months is a good example of a unique title which I never considered until you asked. On the album it is written 90 Millas. What?s unique about this is the number 90. In English numbers are written as words. However, have the rules of capitalization been applied because it?s the first word that should be capitalized and technically the first word is Millas? It requires further analysis however; I have never seen examples like that in any reference. I think it is debatable bending on the ?no? side meaning in the title 90 should be written as Noventa because it?s the first ?word? per se. In newspaper headings a number as the first word in the title would be written. For example, Once personas murieron en accidente en Zaragoza en 2007.

Arag?n - Once personas murieron en accidente en Zaragoza en 2007 - ADN.es

It should not be any different on the album cover. Maybe it would be easier to justify if people know the significance of the title as Gloria explained on television. 90 Millas means, ninety miles to Cuba from Key West, Florida.

To conclude, as I keep saying, you the individual must know the rules regardless what you see written. It gives you leverage and the upper hand as you will for sure question the errors and inconsistencies.


-LDG.
 
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