Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

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Richard

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

sorry to disagree. but yes, the answer is, by looking at them. Tthe good small hotels are not that interested in letting putas in and it is certainly not hard to pick them out. please note, anyone who has ever operated a hotel anywhere in the world has certainly had prostitutes in their rooms whether they wanted themor not. My own experience renting to men with putas or women with sankis was actually fairly good. the only embarassment was when I walked around town and they called out to me by name. one more thing, I do not condone nor do I criticize women and men who are involved in prostitution. for the most part, in the DR it is not their choice, it is purely survival.
 
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Jim Hinsch

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

"it is not their choice, it is purely survival."

It is most definitely a choice. Don't say it isn't.
 
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Richard

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

usually I agree with you Jim, in this case you are wrong. in the DR there are not the social agencies available as there are in the States or Canada to help people. In a country where the unemployment rate is so high and when you hire someone you must assume they cannot read, write or do arithmetic, the scenario is so much different from the developed nations, that we are in no position to criticize the women who engage in prostitution. Little employment, small babies at home and other family to support, all contribute to prostitution not being a choice. the prostitutes I knew when I was in business in Sosua all had high hopes that a German, Canadian or American would fall in love with them, marry them and take them away from it all.
 
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Tom

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Richard

Technically they have a choice, in reality they do not. Choice of words

Tom
 
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Jim Hinsch

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Nope, you are wrong in this case. We all have choices. Sometimes the choices are tough. Sometimes we choose the easiest route. I don't judge. But you have not given any evidence to suggest they do not have a choice. Trust me, they do, and it is an active choice. Just ask all those that are in similar situations, and there are LOTS in similar situations, that choose not to be a prostitute. It is clearly a choice.

The most I'll grant you is that to some, it appears to be the best choice amongst choices.

The fact that the alternatives are unpleasant or even miserable doesn't change the fact that it is a choice. Many are in it because of the high pay - earning in an hour, what a low-paying job would pay after working a solid week of tiring labor, or earning more than a month's pay in a couple days. Nobody is in it because the alternative is death (survival, as you suggested).

We must have different definitions of what it means to have a choice. To say they have no choices is crap. Ask the local church, that constantly offers options and assistance. They do have choices.

No, my friend, it is a choice. You may say that if the alternative is so unpleasant or insufficient, that it really isn't an option. Tell that to the majority that choose that other option. Tell that to the ones that are too young, too old, too sick, too ugly, too fat, or for whatever reason, don't even have the option of being a prostitute.

I think you have a very clouded and biased perception. You talk like you are very distant from it all, picking up hear-say from a group of disgusted people sitting around making distant observations (95% of the hotels don't allow prostitutes, everyone knows everyone, you can tell just looking at them, You can tell by the age difference of their companions, they have no choice, etc.) These are unfair and incorrect characterizations. There is a slight bit of truth in your statements and the rest is pure bias.

I've seen plenty of young tourist women at the disco (I assume they are tourists because they are sunburnt, wear the tell-tale all-inclusive bracelets, and speak with eachother in some language other than Spanish), dressed just as provacative, if not worse than the local girls. Does that mean they are prostitutes? I think not. Explain how they "look" different from those that you can just "tell" by looking at them.

I find your comments rascist and condescending, even though I know you mean no offense. Rascist, because you say you can tell just by looking at them, yet a tourist dressed similarly would not be characterized as a hooker. Condescending because you group them together and talk about their plight, having pity on them for having no other choice in life.

There are way too many unique and differing situations, that we cannot paint with such broad strokes - even the word prostitute is an offensive and incorrect word to describe what you are "classifying" as the prostitutes of Sosua when you talk about the hotel clerks that "know 95% of them." I assume you are talking about the many young male and female Dominicans that frequent the discos, beaches, restaurants, or work at the same, in hopes of hooking up with someone of means, sometimes for an hour, sometimes for life. Their situations vary as much as yours and mine do. And an awful lot of them can read, write, and do arithmetic just fine. I doubt any wake up one day and say, "I think I'll go be a prostitute. I have no choice." But I bet more than a few have daydreamed about hooking up with a person of means, no different from many young women in other countries that want to marry a Doctor, Lawyer, or pro-athlete, and will go out of their way to see that they meet them.

You say "we are in no position to criticize the women who engage in prostitution". And why is that? Because "they" don't have a choice? BS. We are in no position to criticise because there is nothing to criticize, any more than there is reason to criticize someone who elects to clean houses, be a policeman, or be a priest. People make choices and live with those choices.

Jim Hinsch
JimHinsch@CSI.COM
 
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William Leslie

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Well Jim I am happy for you that you lived in an environment and had an education that allowed you to be able to make those kind of decisions. How many of those persons we are discussing had the opportunites you had to be able to analyse their current life and future career destinations and put it in perspective while they are one child of 4 to 6 children or more and the parent or parents do not have the money to put the first two through school never mind the last two.
 
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Jim Hinsch

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Difficult living conditions. Tough decisions. Unpleasant options. Yes, it is sad. Still, the choices remain. I don't judge.
 
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Richard

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Tom. of course, you are absolutely right. Thank you.
 
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Richard

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Of course William leslie. you are living in the real world of Sosua and you speak reality. Most young women in the campo have little or no education, they have babies at a young age, their mothers look after them and the girl gravitates to the tourist areas and large cities to offer the only thing she really has that is her own, her body. Families in the DR are large, their are no pension plans, social security or old age pensions. Parents have large families and rely on their children to provide for them in their old age when they can no longer generate ant income on their own. It is sad, but it is very true. As far as prostitution goes, most small towns offer a least one bordello.
 
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Natasha

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua?

Richard, et all,

I can't help but being a bit amused by everything that you all seem to "know" about Dominican women and Dominican society. Although I perceive you mean no offense, you are making vast generalizations about a group of people (Dominican women) and a country as a whole.

Dominican society is in a contant state of change and evolution, just like any other society, with exceptions, of course. Though certain (actually very few) characterizations can be made, one must be careful in making absolute statements like the ones you and others are making.

Please do not put Dominican women in boxes. Dominican women are individuals with all sorts of differing backgrounds, personalities, morals, opinions, etc. There just isn't really any one mold that fits anymore. I hear people (most often foreign men) characterize us based on the perennial justifications of "well, I have travelled in the DR extensively", "I have lived there for x amount of years", "I know the country well", "I am married to a Dominicana", etc., etc. etc. Again, though a few characterizations can be inferred, broad strokes of a brush should not be used. It is really amusing to read what most of you think about us. It seems that you have put us into two camps - those from "el campo" and those from the city. Never mind that the majority of the population lives in urban centers aroung the country. I read about some of you "advising" that foreign men marry a "good woman from el campo", just what the heck is a "good woman from el campo"?

I am not going to get into the prostitution debate and who "looks" like a prostitute (I myself prefer to call these women prostitutes instead of putas, but that's just me ;-))

However, if I may, let me provide some information.

"Most young women in the campo have little or no education, they have babies at a young age, their mothers look after them and the girl gravitates to the tourist areas and large cities to offer the only thing she really has that is her own, her body."

This is the other way around. Most young women from rural areas do have some education - actually, the drop out rates are far more common at the secondary (high school) level than at the primary level, meaning that the vast majority have completed basic education. Actually, the combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ration in 1998 was 70%. In the same year, 90% of all 15 - 24 year olds were literate and 82% of all females could read and write. VERY few people in the DR have no education al all. I am not diminishing the fact that we have much work to do in the education sector (this is my area of expertise after all). There are vast problems in the education system and of course statistics do have their flaws, but let's not get carried away with broad generalizations either.

"Families in the DR are large, their are no pension plans, social
security or old age pensions. Parents have large families and rely on their children to provide for them in their old age when they can no longer generate ant income on their own."

Families in the DR are large? Are you talking about all families in the DR? Just want to make sure that I am not reading you wrong. How can you come to this conclusion? I have seen differing family sizes all over the DR. Most families may appear larger due to greater interaction with the extended family members, but the norm is more the nuclear family with the trend in having less children and postponing conception (64% of population uses some form of contraception). Fertility rates have actually dropped significantly in the 90's.

No pensions plans in the DR? My grandfather lived off his pension until his death in 1982. Then, his pension was passed on to my grandmother. A social welfare safety net certainly does not exists in the DR, I grant you that.

Regards,
Natasha
 
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tgf

Guest
Re: Whats wrong with Sosua? (Natasha)

I think we both agree this is not an intellectual forum where only scholars are permitted to contribute. I have read your sound advice and interesting points for a long time. Most everyone has made one or two generalizations at times on this board. Can you honestly say that the broad brush has never been in your hands. In American I have seen.... or my observation about American versus Dominican society is....? We are all guilty of this. Can outsiders make sound observations about another society - yes. Will they see certain things that insiders miss - yes. Will insiders have certain knowledge that outsiders are likely to ignore or miss - yes. Can outsiders obtain solid knowledge of another culture - yes. Certainly, the whole premise behind the discipline of anthropology is based on insider-outsider observations and testing of the validity of this knowledge. No, not all of us are Dominicans. Does this mean all information presented by non-Dominicans is somehow less valid than the Dominican perspective? I agree that "broad brushes used wildly make a mess." Does this mean that some generalizations don't have a kernal of validity?
 
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Phyllis

Guest
For Natasha

I've followed your post a lot lately and enjoy reading them. This one in particular has warmed my heart and I just want to second your motion and say that NOT all Dominican woman should be classified either one way to another!! I have some very special female friends in the DR and appreciate them for WHO they are and NOT what they have as an education or do for a living. Wonderful people, Beautiful country!
 
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Roberto

Guest
Re: For Natasha/Richard :)lol

Any one can provide evidence fore they own personal experience still some would still disagree with them, spatially when those have fun doing it

personal experience are not A science, since you perception of the fact at the moment ,can be influenced ,by personal feelings based on you actual fisical,moral conditions ,this is why it is so hard to win A legal case,based only in A witness fact

I do agree with Richard
because in difference of many of those Mr.Mrs.Right I am in A direct contact with all those people and services industry and I see every days what is going on, from both part of the coin that goes fore the all island

the Men are well informed, and his is using his soul heart that explain his point of view very well it is not keeping only what many people call the very high academic performance to write beautiful and play the master
I see him just as A normal Decent,Honest Person that are writing telling about his personal experience
I am sure that he had got on the Motor Concho many times
He had talk with the limpia Botas and he had treat the none welcome people to ours society as Human bean
there fore he had learn much more then
the MR.that seat on the Bar waiting to be serve as the master and looking at the time
with out saying Good Morning Please Thank you
because fore them that apply only to the very well informed people like them

J----answer to Mrs.Sahra
Funny, I graduated with a class of 1000 and I didn't know all of them. Those night watchman must have great memories.

about the watchman show them A 100 pesos
ore A packet of Cigarette then you would see what do they have fore memories:)

Bravo

Richard and the others

keep going no matter what

Roberto
peace:)
 
C

CES

Guest
Re: Whats. . . . ? (Natasha:)

> > > "However, if I may, let me provide some information."

iHola! Natasha,

Is the above statement just an opinion or are you giving us the real thing (some factual information)? Thought I'd check with you before *JH* accuses you of using mere opinions to counter "the learned fair eyed ones" (and others not so fair eyed) vast knowledge of your country:)

Best Regards,

CES
 
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Roberto

Guest
Re: Whats. . . . ? (Natasha:)

CES

Sorry did not understand you question
please try in A other whay

Thanks
Have A nice Sunday

Regards
Roberto
 
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CGS

Guest
Re: Whats. . . . ? (por Roberto:)

> > > "Thought I'd check with you before *JH* accuses you of using mere opinions to counter "the learned fair eyed ones" (and others not so fair eyed) vast knowledge of your country:)"

FYI Roberto,

(Para tu informacion :)

Yo soy CGS la esposa de CES. El mensaje que envie a Natasha fue simplemente una forma de sarcasmo en cuanto se refiere al comentario hecho por Jim Hinsch acusandola de usar opiniones en lugar de las verdaderas estadisticas de nuestro pais. La cara sonriente quiere decir que solo es un chiste. . .

Saludos,

"Una Compatriota"
 
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Roberto

Guest
Re: Whats. . . . ? (por Roberto:)

Pensava lo mismo queria estar seguro,gracias por la aclaracion
peace:)

Mis sinceros Saludos
Roberto