Travel industry's dirty little secret...

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Thank you Juan de los Palotes, in my previous post, people beleive things like this do not happen, and how large it is.
And Americans play the large part in such crap. America needs to get off its high horse, and stop thinking they are holyer than thou. America blames latin America for bringing in the drugs, but America does not want to admit,
THEY ARE THE USERS. America wake up and stop pretending its not your problem. You have a bad history of that.

Why are you and the other poster (we know who it is by their ISP and previous rants on this subject) so obsessed with child sex? Is there something we should know? What do you expect to accomplish here? I don't ever recall anybody here promoting it or even asking about it. There aren't any abusers here. Why preach to the choir?

"America blames latin America for bringing in the drugs, but America does not want to admit, THEY ARE THE USERS."

Like I said, prohibition.

Jim Hinsch
JimHinsch@CSI.COM

Why dont you go back to your never never land, Gringo.

"Is there something we should know?" Thats the typical response one can expect...turning the post around as usual.Good thing we are all behind glass front monitors otherwise we would be splashed by the all your B.S and dribble.

Never never land? forget it they would'nt want him either.And he's not just any ordinary gringo...oh no!...he's a "rich gringo"

I hardly think that bringing up the subject can be called an obsession. Child prostitution is tragically widespread in a lot of countries - according to some this includes the DR. And sex tourism, including sex with very young children, has been going on for years. Otherwise the air lines mentioned wouldn't have done anything about it - fortunately other airlines and tour operators are beginning to act as well.

From Europe the most common destinations to have sex with children have been Thailand and Eastern Europe. As for Americans, I don't know. But some countries in the Caribbeans and Latin America sound plausible to me.

It is no good trying to pretend this doesn't exist. If you dislike it, do something about it. Child abuse is a hideous thing, no matter what it is called or how it is defended.

Regards,
Susanne

"I hardly think that bringing up the subject can be called an obsession."

No, but bringing it up time and time again, as the case has been with JC, can be. Joseph made references to child sex twice without any special reason, and thats once too many times for my taste.

"Otherwise the air lines mentioned wouldn't have done anything about it - fortunately other airlines and tour operators are beginning to act as well."

I didn't get that impression from the article. The opposite sounds true. From the article: "The organization wrote to 43 U.S.-based airlines asking them to make passengers aware of the law. Thirty-five did not answer, eight said no. Airports in New York and New Jersey also declined to put up signs or do anything else to publicize the law, said Carol Smolenski, ECPAT's U.S. coordinator. She said hotels are equally reluctant to help." It appears that Lufthansa and Air France are the exception. The fact that two of 45 airlines (less than 5%) decided to get involved by showing a video tape is hardly evidence of anything except perhaps corporate politics. On how many flights was the video tape shown, as a percentage of their flights? I bet close to 0.

I don't agree that it is the job of airlines to get involved in these issues. This is a matter for police and lawmakers. Do they show videos of the consequences for drug smuggling? Murder? Rape? That's probably why 95% of the airlines declined to get involved or just ignored the request altogether.

"no good trying to pretend this doesn't exist"

Whose trying to pretend it doesn't exist. Murders happen every day in the DR, which I happen to think is just as horrible of a crime, yet you don't see me going on about it and demanding action. Am I pretending that crime doesn't exist too?

"If you dislike it, do something about it."

Sorry, I leave crime fighting to law enforcement officials.

"Child abuse is a hideous thing, no matter what it is called."

You should be more specific in what you are talking about. "Child abuse" covers so many areas and what constitutes child abuse varies from person to person. Even sex with underage children varies by definition. What one country calls child abuse, another country calls legal activity. Even though it is illegal in the Dominican Republic, my own view is that sex with a 17 year old is not a hideous crime, especially when it is with an 18 year old spouse. But that's just me, someone who comes from a place where 17 is beyond the age of consent.

Jim Hinsch
JimHinsch@CSI.COM

European Airlines - also some beyond what is mentioned here - are doing something about this. Also Scandinavian tour operators now encourage their passengers to tell and react if they see child abuse, for instance tell if it goes on in the hotel in which case the tour operator will cease to cooperate with it.

I do believe it is everybody's job to do something about crime. What would you do if you saw a man get beat up? Look the other way? Or wouldn't you try to stop somebody you knew if they were about to commit a crime? How can criminal behaviour be stopped if we don't act, at least by protesting?

Child abuse is by my definition - this is a simplified version - abuse of a childs' right to be protected from violence, sex, neglect, hard and dangerous labour etc. Child prostitution is all of these things. I agree with you that a young woman or man - let's say 15 or above, I am aware that a fixed borderline is an artificial invention - that is willingly engaging in a sexual relationship is hardly being abused. But I stress here that it has to be willingly and not because of physical or emotional pressure of any kind.

Regards,
Susanne

If you had read my posts from the very beginning about bad tourist, WHY, I referenced everything bad that they do, and that includes child abuse. So do not try to twist it around, AGAIN, claiming all I talk about is children. You are a wierd man.
And I'm beginning to understand your angle when you make comments like that, and I'm not the only one that feels this way about you on this forum.

Mostly a dirty lil lie to feed their coffers

Very interesting but very untrue. The article is a typical slur of facts distorted to present their view. Costa Rica has recently enacted some of the toughest anti-child sex campaigns. Even before, it had a tough policy. Its not blatant, its not out in the open (deffinitly not in the hotels).

I've been in DR quite a few times from the north side to the south and ABSOLUTLY NEVER has an underage girl or chulo tried to present an underage girl to me. The same goes in other countries I've been to and yes I do go there to party and have fun and sometimes that includes the ladies. So if its so rampant as these articles claim, why haven't I ever seen it???

Now I'm sure someone here will flame me and give their experience of when they saw a underage person being offered but my point is child sex is not promoted in the open as this article depicts.

Their lame attempt to try to associate child sex to internet tours that may include introductions (not necessarily sex) is just as untrue. I'm not saying it never happens but those places are shut down as fast.

From my travels (and I've been to some out of the way third world countries) I would say that yes child sex exists but you have to be REALLY looking for it and know the right contacts. But then slavery exists everywhere too. Oh and by the way the ultimate human rights and child abuse can be credited to RELIGION. More people have suffered, died (including children) in the name of organized religion than for any other reason!! Pure and simple fact. Now I'm sure I could find some links for you that would show "Religions dirty little past", but its not appropriate for the DR1 board just like your Child Sex posts are inappropriate.

If you don't like tourism because a man or woman (of legal age) may find each other and do things that don't agree with you morally, fine. Pray for us. But don't insult my intelligence by propogating lies.

I think Jim explained the facts quite well. Some of you need to view the legal ages of consent in various countries to get the big picture. Legal age doesn't constitute appropriate or social norms but only the deffinition itself.

I agree in that Josephs hidden agenda is child sex.

Jim is 100% correct in that child abuse takes many forms and child sex is only a fraction of the real problem. Just as hidious is the child that is ridiculed by a parent for not making the football team or for not having an "A" average in school to the point of then hating to come home and either become run-aways or contemplate suicide.

I also agree in Jim's example of the case of a 17 yr old girl who may have an older husband. Keep in mind the age of consent is an age set by law, not an indication of maturity. I've seen many a 25 year old men and women who were immature and had no business leading an active sex life. I've also met many 15 or 16 year olds who were as mature as some 25 year olds.

Heck, 120 years ago 80% of girls were married and had kids by 15. I'm not to excited about calling my great, great grandfather a pervert because he married a girl of 15. So its really a fairly recent issue as the social norm in gradually raising the age of consent.

Re: Joseph - still on about child sex

You'll do anything to keep this subject going. Do you have ANY real evidence? Have you participated in this crime, or are you just echoing something you've read or saw one time? I really have to question your motives. Call me weird for calling you weird doesn't hold much water.

I understand your frustration. You protest about something and then your interest is questioned, but when someone takes the podium with a crusade in mind, they usually have some very personal and specific reason. So if you don't, why not just drop it?

If we see a child molester, we'll be sure to report it. Satisfied? Enough said.

Jim Hinsch
JimHinsch@CSI.COM

Re: Mostly a dirty lil lie to feed their coffers

Excellent post. Logic, reason, and truth.

Especially: "Now I'm sure I could find some links for you that would show "Religions dirty little past", but its not appropriate for the DR1 board just like your Child Sex posts are inappropriate."

Jim Hinsch
JimHinsch@CSI.COM

Re: Mostly a dirty lil lie to feed their coffers

When I was in Costa Rica last year, there was a big sign at the check-in counter at my hotel in San Jose about child prostitution being against the law and that the government was cracking down on it.

All the hotels I have ever been to also insist on seeing ID or "cedulas" when you are checking in. Before I was married and I traveled with my then fiancee, she was always required to show her cedula before they would check us in, and that was in the DR.

In fact, even now that I am married, my wife had to argue with the clerk at the Hotel Capella in Juan Dolio the other day when she came to join me and our children a day after we had arrived (she is 25 years old but has a youthful face). The clerk refused to believe that she was my wife until she provided her driver's license.

So I would say that it is absolute nonsense to assert that the travel industry nor goverment is doing anything about this. Quite the contrary.

Unbeleiveable you would make such a comment, that I have an agenda on child sex. You two are incredible. Its obvious your minds are seriously screwed up to make such a blanket comment like that.

Heck your comment of "Heck, 120 years ago 80% of girls were married and had kids by 15" truely implys to me that your interested in young children, and its acceptable behavior in your eyes. I strongly assume you must.

but when I first post of my concerns of Tourist behaviors in poor countries, and for you two to twist in a way that you have. Surely you do not see the big picture. Your just a bunch of Ostriches with your heads barried in the sand. Typical Americans, thats why Americans slavery took so long to abolish.

Insults, Broad Generalizations, Personal Attacks

The above are all hardly conducive to mutual learning. My suggestion is to either stop the attacks or stop the thread. The points have been made, information (as much as there was) presented, this discussion has degenerated. Time to move on....

The only big picture is......

Joseph, the big picture I see is a man who hides behind multiple nicks, posts that are flawed in logic and purpose, and links to articles with exaggerated and unsubstantiated facts. Like your articles both are unable to stand on their own merits. Having to lie to promote your belief is still a lie. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your actions are devious, deceitful and outright lies. Not what I'd expect from someone who is touting "correct behavor and morals". Looks like to me you need to learn to walk the talk.

Heck, 120 years ago 80% of girls were married and had kids by 15. I'm not to excited about calling my great, great grandfather a pervert because he married a girl of 15 <--- Now how did you read into that that I was after young children. But you are correct on one account. I do love children.. I think they are our worlds greatest asset and hope. I don't force myself on little kids and I don't force myself on women. You obviously know nothing of history or my referenced statement wouldn't have come as a suprise to you.

Oh, and you did know that Mary was either 13 or 14 years old and Joesph was an older man. I don't think Joesph was a pedaphile anymore than my great, great grandfather. Stating facts Joseph doesn't mean I endorse illegal activities. In the times they lived, what Mary and Joseph did was acceptable, the norm, just as when my great, great grandfather was married.

You know what I find interesting is that society is ever more trusting in special interest touts as yourself and don't do their own homework. I look around me and see people at a younger age having to use diapers and young peoples previous rights being taken away by new minimum age laws. Just think maybe in a few years the legal age of consent might be 21 instead of 18. Would that make many of us perverts who had relations with 18 or 19 year olds in the past????? You would probably think so..... but those with common sense and the ability to strip away the hype from the facts won't.

I know I don't fit your mold. I am a "rich" tourist in your eyes, I enjoy beer and I enjoy the opposite sex. But at least I'm honest, don't hide behind lies and multiple nicks.

Re: The only big picture is......

Well, put it this way......WE AGREE TO DISAGREE