Enforcement of a "no noise" Rule

Ken · Feb 25, 2008

Many condos have rules prohibiting occupants from disturbing others. What if any teeth can be put in the rule so that the Administrator and/or Assembly, if necessary, can quickly end the disturbance.

Suppose a condo has a rule prohibiting nose that disturbs others in their apartments or the common areas. If a barking dog or loud music disturbs others and even after the administrator verifies the disturbance and tells the offender or owner of the dog that the disturbance must be stopped the disturbance continues, what action can be taken?

Suppose, too, that the rule includes this provision in case the disturbance continues: "The Administrator is authorized to take whatever action is necessary and to charge the cost to the owner if the disturbance continues after a warning is received."

Does "whatever action is necessary" allow the Administrator to call the police and have them take the barking dog away? Does it allow the Administrator to confiscate the machine that the loud music is coming from? If not, what can the administrator do?

Hopefully going to the Land Court is not the only remedy. The time that takes, even with an expedited hearing can seen interminable if you are being driven crazy by barking, loud music, or what have you.

If "take whatever action is necessary" is, in reality, means only initiating legal action, are there any specific penalties that can be put in the rules? For example, can there be a significant monetary fine levied against the offender for each violation? Something that is likely to get quick action?

Adrian Bye · Feb 25, 2008

I can't help you with your question, I just want to share an observation.

You post a lot about various building issues and problems.

When I moved into my current building several years ago, I went to a couple of building meetings. I found them to be a waste of time, so I haven't been back. Since then I've barely had any reason to be in contact with the building managers.

Things generally run well here so there's not too much reason to do anything. Are there so many problems where you are?

Rocky · Feb 25, 2008

adrianb said:
Things generally run well here so there's not too much reason to do anything. Are there so many problems where you are?

Let us not forget one of the biggest attractions of moving to the DR, to get away from all those damn rules and regulations in the industrialized nations.
I would think that reasoning with any neighbour who is causing a disturbance, would be more fruitful than making a load of condo rules, that are near impossible to enforce, anyway.
El Neptuno is such a great complex and there's nobody living there who could be considered a bad neighbour, if you compare them to the bad neighbours I have had in the past.
Heck.. El Neptuno residents look like angels as compared to some of the fruitcakes I have had as neighbours.

Chris · Feb 25, 2008

Ken is very involved in the management committee of the condos where he lives. Hence all the questions.

MommC · Feb 25, 2008

Won't do much good.......

Calling law enforcement has become a waste of time also as they no longer enter 'private' property to enforce noise laws.

Our 'solution' to extreme noise (which happens mainly at night) is to start making some 'extreme' noise of our own in the VERY early hours of the morning. If the offenders make it impossible for us to sleep at night, those of us who get up early make it impossible for them to sleep during the day.

Been all the way to court on the barking dogs issue to no avail....so no matter what the regulations say if noise is a problem, it will remain a problem unless you are willing to pay a small ransom (make that a rather large ransom) to sue the offenders in civil court.

Rocky · Feb 25, 2008

MommC said:
Calling law enforcement has become a waste of time also as they no longer enter 'private' property to enforce noise laws.

Our 'solution' to extreme noise (which happens mainly at night) is to start making some 'extreme' noise of our own in the VERY early hours of the morning. If the offenders make it impossible for us to sleep at night, those of us who get up early make it impossible for them to sleep during the day.

Been all the way to court on the barking dogs issue to no avail....so no matter what the regulations say if noise is a problem, it will remain a problem unless you are willing to pay a small ransom (make that a rather large ransom) to sue the offenders in civil court.

Exactly.
So why even bother making all the rules and regulations?
It's a waste of time.
You try to work it out in a friendly fashion, then if that doesn't work, then you wage war.

sollie · Feb 25, 2008

A real time example of the " Rule of law/Rule of individual" debate.

Ken · Feb 25, 2008

MommC, I would be interested in hearing more about your experience going to court on the dog barking issue. PM me, if you want, or post the info. Either way, I'm interested in knowing more.

Ken · Feb 25, 2008

A general comment about rules. Rules are something you hope you won't need, but when you need them, you are glad you have thought about how to deal with a problem and have a plan ready. And because a rule requires approval by 75% of the owners, the best time to make them is often when everything is harmonious and there is a general feeling of wanting it to stay that way.

Reasoning should always be the first step. But I would rather explore the options now than just figure if a noise problem, for example, arises and the offender doesn't respond, that the solution is to make a hell of a racket when the offender is trying to sleep. Problem is that those of us who like our sleep at night and don't get up early get our sleep interrupted twice a day. Violating a rule to punish a violator of the same rule doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

In the close environment of a condominium and absent any ability to screen prospective buyers, there is no way of knowing if and when a rule might be needed. But, like the Scouts say, be prepared.

GringoCArlos · Feb 25, 2008

On the other hand, a good Scout might have checked out the landscape before moving in, so they could know what they are getting into. Too much noise, look for a different place. Can't do much about residents who move in after you have, but you sure can beforehand.

Many Dominicans seem to feel very uncomfortable with a lack of noise, such as the TV, the music and four people all talking (or yelling) at the same time. It drives them as crazy as a gringo faced with too MUCH noise. In the same manner, to them, what is the point of having a dog for security if it never sounds off so that potential thieves never hear it, so that they go looking somewhere else as a target.

Many too view their home as their castle, and anyone who wants to tell them what to do in THEIR home be damned. Good luck with new rules.

MommC · Feb 25, 2008

Very LONG story Ken..............

over three-four years worth........of 'official' intervention including but not limited to 'fiscal', 'media ambiente' 'tribunal de tierra', 'health officials (forget the proper name), not to mention thousands of pesos and hundreds of hours of work and miles of paperwork.

End result - dog owner was 'notified' of when the officials were coming to 'impound' her animals and low and behold the animals had 'mysteriously disappeared' the day before and the owner 'claimed' they had been sold to a new owner who didn't live in the area.

24 hrs later she 'bought' them back and all our efforts were in vain.

I'd tell you how we finally got rid of them but I might incriminate certain other owners (those closest to the offender) if I did.

Suffice it to say there was a small scale war involving threats, a pistol and an arrest with time spend in 'lock-up'.

sollie · Feb 25, 2008

I hear you

Ken said:
A general comment about rules. Rules are something you hope you won't need, but when you need them, you are glad you have thought about how to deal with a problem and have a plan ready. And because a rule requires approval by 75% of the owners, the best time to make them is often when everything is harmonious and there is a general feeling of wanting it to stay that way.

Reasoning should always be the first step. But I would rather explore the options now than just figure if a noise problem, for example, arises and the offender doesn't respond, that the solution is to make a hell of a racket when the offender is trying to sleep. Problem is that those of us who like our sleep at night and don't get up early get our sleep interrupted twice a day. Violating a rule to punish a violator of the same rule doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

In the close environment of a condominium and absent any ability to screen prospective buyers, there is no way of knowing if and when a rule might be needed. But, like the Scouts say, be prepared.

"The Administrator is authorized to take whatever action is necessary and to charge the cost to the owner if the disturbance continues after a warning is received."

Rules are great when they are specific. If the barking dog happens to pee on the Administrators' shoe and the Administrator decides that the necessary action is to kick the dog away and the dog is injured and continues to yelp and pee, should the owner be charged for the vet bill or only warned, or both?

Sollie

Ken · Feb 26, 2008

Thanks, MommC. People who favor pets say "hold the owner responsible" if the pet disturbs others. Sounds good, but what does it mean? What can you do to stop the disturbance that doesn't cost the consortium an arm and a leg and doesn't take an indefinite period, with the disturbance continuing all the while? Your experience is not encouraging.

The expense can be dealt with by including in the rule on noise that the owner responsible for the disturbance will pay all legal costs of the consortium if he loses the case in Land Court. But that doesn't give any relief to the people disturbed during the time it takes for the case to be heard and the decision to be implemented.

Hopefully Fabio will have something to offer.

Hipocrito Mejia · Feb 26, 2008

I would take the path suggested by those who advice to reason with the offender(s). This is a country where people always find a way to circumvent the law if they are hellbent on it.

During my last couple of visits (Jan, Feb), I have noticed bars, discos, etc. opened past the established time, despite the presence of the police/military. So if people don't obey the law of the government, what makes anyone think that you can get police to enforce a condo association rule?

kirkland1222 · Feb 26, 2008

Pretty sure you won't get anywhere prosecuting somebody for noise. Least of all getting them to pay legal expenses. Noise is everywhere in the DR and how you would prosecute somebody for having a barking dog possibly for security is beyond me. You can make all the rules and regulations you want but the bottom line is that you can't adjust the way somebody lives in their own property.

I suggest ear-plugs.

Ken · Feb 26, 2008

To those who recommend reasoning with the offender, let me say again that I agree. This should always be the first course of action in a dispute and in most cases will probably be all that is required. Perhaps the person wasn't even aware that the music he was enjoying was so loud that it was bothering others.

But when reasoning doesn't work, what then? That is the question I am asking Fabio to answer.

MommC has told us of a case in her condo where reasoning didn't work so some of the owners retaliated against the offender by interrupting his sleep until he got the message.

Everybody in the condo wearing ear plugs because nothing can be done about the noise has also been suggested.

So far the opinions have ranged from keep the offender awake when he is trying to sleep to forget all rules because getting away from rules is why people come to the Dominican Republic, with earplugs somewhere in between.
I like MommC's solution the best of those suggested, but see it as a last resort because it increases the length of time that nobody gets any sleep.

The important response is the one yet to be received, the one from Fabio. I am hoping he can offer something that is useful and does not add to the noise pollution.

Rocky · Feb 26, 2008

It seems rather futile to make a condo law about noise, when there is already a noise law in the country.
A condo law is weak next to an actual governmental law.
It's a waste of time to make such a condo law.

Reasoning with the offender is the first step.
If that does not work and one has concluded that trying to get a noise law enforced is too expensive and/or time consuming, then perhaps some other type of action need be taken, but to make a condo law about it would be redundant, useless and ridiculous.

Ken · Feb 26, 2008

Rocky, with all due respect, telling me it is a waste of time to post a question to Fabio that I hope will help us with a rule on dealing with an individual who doesn't respond to reason and continues to make noise that disturbs others in the condo is a waste of your time.

MommC · Feb 26, 2008

Difficult to soundproof a 2nd floor apartment......

Squat said:
It actually works well to some extent... The next level is to soundproof your house. I think we will all end up doing that anyway...

However we did install anti rudio windows in the main bathroom (opens onto plumbing stack in center of building) and our personal bedroom.

Both helped cut down on extraneous noise from across the highway and from the taxi stand a block away, however didn't do much to dampen the sound of the little boy downstairs who cries ALL the time!

Doesn't do much to cut the sound from the next door apt. when 20 or so Dominicans are there on the weekend either:surprised!

Note to Ken......even when the rule states all costs to be borne by the owner in cases of infringement and legal action - just try to collect!! But that's another story that's VERRRRYYYY long!!

johne · Feb 26, 2008

MommC said:
Note to Ken......even when the rule states all costs to be borne by the owner in cases of infringement and legal action - just try to collect!! But that's another story that's VERRRRYYYY long!!

I would like to present this to Mr.Guzman--can a judgement lien be placed against the property (the condo) and be settled when and if the owner went to sell?

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