end of propane subsidies and the rise of deforestation?

George Holmes

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Nov 15, 2006
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It seems that propane subsidies are going to end soon, and the reasons the government are doing it are largely "urban" reasons, such as the high numbers of cars running on LPG. There are compelling "rural" reasons for continuing the subsidy.

Since the subsidy was introduced, there has been a great decline in the use of wood or charcoal as a fuel, which has an impact on deforestation. The evidence suggests that this subsidy has had a far greater effect on how much forest campesinos have been cutting down or damaging than the various forestry laws (excluding the complex topic of the probably greater impact of rich people on forests of the DR). In fact, although data is unreliable and somewhat scarce, the most recent satellite analyses indicates that forest cover has increased in the last decade in the DR.
Put simply, campesinos generally prefer to use gas as a cooking fuel because:
- it is healtheir (they recognise the health risks of smoke)
- it is quicker (for some kinds of cooking, although wood can be better for others because it gives a hotter flame)
- getting wood is a hassle for most
They do occasionally use some wood but from my experience in the Cordillera Central it is a 'sustainable' use because demand is low so there is enough dead branches on the forest floor and dead coffee stems etc so that no live wood needs to be cut. Of course, this might be different in other parts of the DR, particularly in the drier forest of the southwest, where the economy and ecology are rather different. Wood and charcoal are only used in some cases, such as when a particular family's gas tank runs out and they don't have the cash just then to buy a refill, so they will burn wood until they can afford it.

It seems that urban demand for charcoal is low for similar reasons, so very little forest is damaged for production to meet this.

With the end of the subsidy, propane will become less popular in rural and urban areas, cutting for charcoal and fuel wood will rise, as will deforestation and the ecological effects of this. I find it very interesting that the discussion is purely about the economic cost of people filling up their yipetas and not about the effect on the environment.
 

chibani

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Oct 29, 2007
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It seems that propane subsidies are going to end soon, and the reasons the government are doing it are largely "urban" reasons, such as the high numbers of cars running on LPG. There are compelling "rural" reasons for continuing the subsidy.

Since the subsidy was introduced, there has been a great decline in the use of wood or charcoal as a fuel, which has an impact on deforestation. The evidence suggests that this subsidy has had a far greater effect on how much forest campesinos have been cutting down or damaging than the various forestry laws (excluding the complex topic of the probably greater impact of rich people on forests of the DR). In fact, although data is unreliable and somewhat scarce, the most recent satellite analyses indicates that forest cover has increased in the last decade in the DR.
There is no reason to subsidy propane for every body. Some billionaires properties use propane an can afford it. It would be better to hemp only those who need it really.
 
Jan 5, 2006
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This government is proposing to do something which in theory was supposed to be done a long time ago, but was never enforced/implemented. They are intent on limiting the subsidy to LPG that is used by homemakers and small public transportation vehicles (conchos).

It will be interesting to see how they intend to control subsidized LPG sales, as again, this was supposed to be done long ago, yet everyone buys LPG at subsidized prices for whatever use they please.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
The ongoing plan is to have strict enforcement of the biz that do the actual sales of the gas, to both residential and commercial users.

It don't matter if the gas is used by a millionaire or a poor ama de casa, both are entitled to the same price since no distinction is made across the income of those to benefit but end market user...

Commercial use and private vehicles adapted to employ the subsidized gas is the problem. The retailers will be targeted for infractions to the agreement under which the gas can be sold at the subsidy price.

Inspectors (undercover) will be using the same venues the local market uses to buy from the retailers, both commercial and private users.
Once a violation is found it will be videotaped as proof for the courts (should the retailer contest the violation's fines) and stiff penalties imposed per occurrence.

Carros publicos with the approved permit to buy subsidy gas will have electronic measures to track usage and the tally of pounds acquired during the span the fuel should have lasted. In other words, a device linked to the speedometer and fuel system/tank will be placed to keep the drivers from buying the gas and reselling the unused to the private market...

A lot of stuff is soon going to change for the better...
 
Jan 5, 2006
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Inspectors (undercover) will be using the same venues the local market uses to buy from the retailers, both commercial and private users.
Once a violation is found it will be videotaped as proof for the courts (should the retailer contest the violation's fines) and stiff penalties imposed per occurrence.

Sounds just like the weight and measure inspectors that colmados and gas stations can now bribe for 3 or 4 hundred pesos to make them go away.;)


Carros publicos with the approved permit to buy subsidy gas will have electronic measures to track usage and the tally of pounds acquired during the span the fuel should have lasted. In other words, a device linked to the speedometer and fuel system/tank will be placed to keep the drivers from buying the gas and reselling the unused to the private market...

Good luck! I already see a new black market business "fixing" those devices, just like they "fix" electric meters, meters at LPG stations, gas pumps, etc.


A lot of stuff is soon going to change for the better...

C'mon PICHARDO, we grew up in DR... we know that inspectors and these gadgets won't work here! :(
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
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With gasoline at $US5.50-5.85 and rising, and propane (unsibsidized) at under $US2.50, seems that private folks would opt for propane in their vehicles.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
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Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
Sounds just like the weight and measure inspectors that colmados and gas stations can now bribe for 3 or 4 hundred pesos to make them go away.;)

Like I said, new system (I can't reveal much more of the inner workings).
The "undercover" part is the big ace here, if you can now understand they can't bribe what they can't identify to their side...


Good luck! I already see a new black market business "fixing" those devices, just like they "fix" electric meters, meters at LPG stations, gas pumps, etc.

The Devices are pretty safe in the way that journaling of the kernel is used in tandem with tamper proof indicators. No Dominican authority is going to be made aware of the safety since a foreign trustee will be in charge of the audits... Can't be more specific than this here...


C'mon PICHARDO, we grew up in DR... we know that inspectors and these gadgets won't work here! :(

Changes are going to happen! Just as the theft of electrical service will be dealt with even harsher penalties, once the DR is in charge again of the energy sector (there will be a program for low income and retirees to get lower set bills than the others).



Let out here on DR1:

Be ready for taxes on services and sectors of the economy that got away with unpaid tax collected to the gov.

The DR will be one of the first countries to adopt the paperless currency in favor of electronic based currency to the max.

Money laundering in the DR will be 0%...

We'll address the aging with the proper care and facilities they require funded by the state 100%. People will be able to use a part of their income taxes to invest in the Bolsa de Valores Dominicana.

The Hospital/health care system of the DR will be one and the same nationwide... Both private and public will be fused into a one care provider...

Instead of taxing imports, the internal taxes will carry an ad valorem to make the national industry more competitive and easier to reach the international markets via help of the gov.

A campaign, to educate the younger generation to the perils of higher imports consumption to national products ratio. Bring the younger generation into the world market with an extra subject to be imparted via the schools in the DR...

The creation of a micro-loan state funded bank aiming at the lowest sectors of our socio-economic strata.

Some of the stuff you don't know about being discussed today in our gov and many reaching the initial triggers...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
113
Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
Propane gas is going to be allowed to float to market price...
Natural gas on the other hand...

If you're thinking of buying a car to bring to the DR, make sure to check a good Flex fuel vehicle capable of running on E85 and gasoline...
 

gmiller261

New member
Dec 29, 2002
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Thanks made my day

I for one, applaud the positive attitude PICHARDO has. I am an eternal optimist and have faith that things can/will change in the DR. Most objective thinkers admit that evolution (physically/mentality) occur on cataclysmic boundaries. The world, as a whole is experiencing this to some degree, today.

What he outlined is not ?sending a man to the moon? type of stuff. I look forward to any other information he may write.
 

chibani

Member
Oct 29, 2007
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From "Le Monde" Paris
Do the governments of the poor countries owe - and do they can - stop subsidizing fuels to urge motorists or households(houseworks) to be more thrifty in energy? This question in the considerable political and social stakes, France is going to put her(it) during G8 of Ministers of Finance gathered(combined), on Friday, 13 and Saturday, June 14th, in Osaka (Japan).
While the price(prize) of the barrel oscillates around 135 dollars, group of eight most industrialized countries also has to plead for an increase of the production to the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), a more fed dialogue enters consumer and oil-producing, an improvement of the energy efficiency in the little thrifty countries and a better knowledge of the level of stocks and reserves of crude oil(gross salary).
Developing countries - notably oil producers - subsidize massively fuels, gas or domestic fuel (China, India, Iran, Indonesia, Nigeria, Venezuela). Without these helps, the individual vehicles and the collective transport would often be in the stop(ruling). But they burden their budget to the detriment of priority actions(shares) (education, health), dissuade them from making energy savings and contribute to the reheating climate
On the other hand, these subsidies benefit especially the easy(well-to-do) classes. The poor men, who have no vehicles, suffer especially from the price increase of the food(supply) which, according to the World Bank, absorbs 50 % of their incomes. It is only indirectly, by means of the transport of the products of first necessities, that they are got(touched) by the increase in the price of oil.
The international Agency of the energy (AIE)((IEA)) tried to calculate(code) the importance of subsidies. She(it) arrives at 50 billion dollars (32,4 billion euro) for China, India and the Middle East in 2007 and in 90 billion dollars for the whole world in 2005. Figures doubtless lower than the reality. We estimate the effort at 7 % of the gross domestic product (GDP) in Venezuela and in 2 % in Mexico, notably because he has to import big quantities of gasoline(essence). In Malaysia, the helps represent a third(third party) of the budget and contribute to its heavy deficit (5 % of the GDP).
Led well, a decline of the helps does not nevertheless lead(drive) necessarily to the social disaster. With the realized fiscal savings, the governments can re-assign credits to programs of struggle against poverty. Indonesia assures that it is so going to redistribute 1,5 billion dollars in favour of 19 million poor men. She(it) applies the recipe recommended by the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.
The effort should be better shared between rich and poor countries, underlines a person in charge of the AIE(IEA). He notes that a decline of 10 % of the gas consumption of the Americans would pull(entail) an economy of 1 million barrels a day, more than the increase of the world demand in 2008 foreseen(planned) by the agency (800 000 barrels).
 
Feb 7, 2007
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625
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Like I said, new system (I can't reveal much more of the inner workings).
The "undercover" part is the big ace here, if you can now understand they can't bribe what they can't identify to their side...




The Devices are pretty safe in the way that journaling of the kernel is used in tandem with tamper proof indicators. No Dominican authority is going to be made aware of the safety since a foreign trustee will be in charge of the audits... Can't be more specific than this here...




Changes are going to happen! Just as the theft of electrical service will be dealt with even harsher penalties, once the DR is in charge again of the energy sector (there will be a program for low income and retirees to get lower set bills than the others).



Let out here on DR1:

Be ready for taxes on services and sectors of the economy that got away with unpaid tax collected to the gov.

The DR will be one of the first countries to adopt the paperless currency in favor of electronic based currency to the max.

Money laundering in the DR will be 0%...

We'll address the aging with the proper care and facilities they require funded by the state 100%. People will be able to use a part of their income taxes to invest in the Bolsa de Valores Dominicana.

The Hospital/health care system of the DR will be one and the same nationwide... Both private and public will be fused into a one care provider...

Instead of taxing imports, the internal taxes will carry an ad valorem to make the national industry more competitive and easier to reach the international markets via help of the gov.

A campaign, to educate the younger generation to the perils of higher imports consumption to national products ratio. Bring the younger generation into the world market with an extra subject to be imparted via the schools in the DR...

The creation of a micro-loan state funded bank aiming at the lowest sectors of our socio-economic strata.

Some of the stuff you don't know about being discussed today in our gov and many reaching the initial triggers...


Pichardo, do you, by any chance, belong to the Bilderberg group?

ENDGAME- ALEX JONES - Blueprint for Global Enslavement
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
113
Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
Hmmmm... Same people here that contended the Metro was never going to happen...

A bunch of die hard Perredeistas maybe?!?

Every single thing I have posted hints or scraps about here in the DR1 has either come to be or is developing real time with ample coverage in the news...

I belong to a group of people that care where this nation is heading and where we're coming from and don't want to get back to...
The same group that dedicates a big chunk of time in the international biz arena getting the world to notice how they can profit in the DR, while a same time bringing better opportunities to our countrymen...

The same people that are investing without reserves into the newly added Bolsa de Valores Dominicana, to see this new venue become the beacon for the small, medium and large biz in the DR, to get the funds they need to compete not only locally but globally with ample resources benefiting the Dominican population first and foremost...

That's the group I belong to, now... Which one do you belong to?

Hipocrito: Things don't change by themselves, unless of course you stick to magic or voodoo.

The biggest changes will be real and palpable within the next 4 years... Some are just to be let out and initiated...
 

Lambada

Gold
Mar 4, 2004
9,478
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80
www.ginniebedggood.com
Be ready for taxes on services and sectors of the economy that got away with unpaid tax collected to the gov.

I'm certainly expecting this after August 16th. My little birdie says one will be taxation on pensions originating abroad (which is on statute book but was never implemented). Do you think that is accurate? I also heard of a crackdown on rental income currently not declared by non-resident home owners.

And in support of chibani's post from Le Monde, The Economist makes a similar point in an article in the May 29th. print edition 'An IMF study of five emerging economies found that the richest 20% of households received, on average, 42% of total fuel subsidies; the bottom 20% received less than 10%. That money would be better spent on health, education and infrastructure. Not only would this benefit the poor, but higher prices would also help to dampen global oil consumption, and hence the price of oil.'
Fuel subsidies | Crude measures | Economist.com

Unfortunately it doesn't answer George Holmes point about deforestation (other than perhaps indirectly).
 

Arrica

New member
Jun 3, 2006
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In principle interesting with reduced or eliminated fuel subsidies but the 'Economist's analysis is simplistic and focuses only on gasoline. What is important for developing economies to subsidize is butane or propane that is the simplest alternative to save the forests and avoid the poor from resorting to charcoal fabrication and burning that has largely deforested neighboring Haiti. The number of rich people is relatively limited compared to the large group of poor (and middle class) and you can only cook and eat a relatively finite amount of food. The poor benefit from the propane/butane subsidy, and the environment benefits infinitely from avoiding cutting down the trees and forests. However, it must be holistic, having rangers to control forest and tree cutting, replanting of trees when they are cut down for timber (or agricultural land clearing) and enforcement of the laws that protect the environment, water-sheds etc.
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
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Lots of panties up and in ever so tight today.

Apparently what this administration is going to do (besides line their own pockets, that is) AND LET ME ADD THAT IT NEEDS DOING--is to keep the 15-20,000 "Padres de familia" that drive little cars about in propane at subsidized prices and the housewife will still get household use propane from her friendly distributor at subsidized prices. In effect, this downplays the OP's basic contention: lack of fuel will increase charcoal production-or words to that effect.

As for the new taxes, get ready for them. The F'dez II Administration has spent so much money getting reelected that there is no way out of this fix except to add more taxes. Plus the F'dez III Administration is facing the incredible increase in oil prices, and there is now way around that.

I would be in favor of an Odds/Evens policy, where by cars with odd number plates can circulate one day and etcetc..Cuts the numbers in half. Like it or not...

The rich can afford two cars, The rest of us can either steal license plates or learn to car pool...Wouldn't that be something?? Oblige a sense of responsibility.

Since gasoline is now at $200 a gallon here and diesel is at $175, I think a lot more people will think about "going out for a drive in the country" ...but then again, I said the same thing when it hit $100 a gallon...You think??


HB
 

Lucille

Bronze
Jan 14, 2007
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The car that I am thinking to bring to the DR is a 2007 Honda Civic-Hybrid. I fill up the tank every 3 weeks...ha ha ha .......Oil changed every 4,000 miles....I am very happy with that hybrid car I call it Micky Mouse.....
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
893
113
Santiago de Los 30 Caballeros
The car that I am thinking to bring to the DR is a 2007 Honda Civic-Hybrid. I fill up the tank every 3 weeks...ha ha ha .......Oil changed every 4,000 miles....I am very happy with that hybrid car I call it Micky Mouse.....

Wait for the new regulations that will come into play after Sept (more or less depending on the participation of the opposition) for Hybrids, Flex fuel, NCG and electric vehicles. The savings will be a huge chunk of money...

We're in the process of negotiations with the mid-large car dealer/importers in the DR, trying to make the switch as soft as possible so that current inventories don't sit idly in the lots versus the new energy saving vehicles.