Propane conversion tips (caution)/update

AZB

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Ok, I am not sure what you might call this thread, an update to previous thread on propane conversion or whatever.
here are Do's and Don'ts.
In santiago, the king of LPG (propane kit) conversion is:
Acosta auto gas. the are well equipped and have all mechanics, installers and electricians working in one place. they will modify and weld metals to propane tanks and install them well bolted to your car. they carry everything so there is no need to wait for parts or have to go else where to fine tune the car etc. they will do it all in one place and they are cheaper. I wish I had gone there in the first place.

They are located near the rotonda (round-about) of 27 de febrero when entering santiago from navarete road. They are in the street right behind auto dealership of ochoa. Tel: 809 295 7055

Now here is what you don't want to do.
Do not simply drive the car on propane. the system is designed to turn on the car in gasoline and then after you drive the car and when the engine RPM reaches 2000 RPM the system shifts to propane gas and turns off gasoline fuel. This is important that you do this. Some people (including myself), simply start the car, press the gas peddle so the engine increases the rpm to 2K and shifts to propane. We thought this will save the expensive fuel and we don't have to fill gasoline for months. wrong!
So happened my car would start on gasoline but it will run rough and often shake the engine. The next day, car won't start at all on gasoline. I went to mechanic and he told me i needed a switch installed so it would bypass the chip; this is because the data on computerized chip is erased so that why my car is not starting on gasoline. make the long story short, it seemed like a long complicated process and it was going to cost me money, pus I was not convinced of the diagnosis.
So what do I do? I go to public forums to see what the tigres are saying about it.
It quickly became clear to me that the problem was simple. I was the problem. I was running the car on propane for so long that the little tiny level of fuel I had left in my tank was drying up, solidifying and thus, clogging up my fuel injectors. The problem was so sudden I even thought my fuel pump was acting up. I mean the car would run one day on gasoline and the next day, it would not even start.
So I filled up tank quarter of the capacity, emptied a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and left the car parked for the night. The next morning I tried to start up the car on gasoline. It didn't at first but I kept trying. Then it would start but only on 2 cylinders. Shakes and then die. After a few more attempts, the car finally started and I gave some gasoline to run the engine up. Then, finally, it started to run good. I think the clog opened up and today I will run the car on gasoline only to clean up the fuel injectors.
lesson learned, from now on, i will run my car on gasoline for some distance until it will switch to propane all by itself, like it was supposed to do in the first place.
AZB
 
Jan 5, 2006
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the little tiny level of fuel I had left in my tank was drying up, solidifying and thus, clogging up my fuel injectors.

You found out the hard way that over time, gasoline turns into a thick, varnish like substance, that can ruin your entire fuel system. This also applies to anyone that leaves their car parked for a while. You either need to empty out your tank or add a fuel stabilizer to prevent this from happening.

AZB, you may want to have the spark plugs pulled and looked at, to see if they are fouled up. If they are, your car will misfire and run rough.
 

AZB

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i have had spark plugs replaced not long ago.
Car is running like new again. Thanks god.
AZB
 

cobraboy

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Super simple solution: put Sta-Bil in the tank of gasoline. It will make the gasoline good for over a year.

I let the propane run dry before filling it up. Then I drive the truck to the gas station on gasoline.
 

BermudaRum

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Oct 9, 2007
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You found out the hard way that over time, gasoline turns into a thick, varnish like substance, that can ruin your entire fuel system. This also applies to anyone that leaves their car parked for a while. You either need to empty out your tank or add a fuel stabilizer to prevent this from happening.

Need advise with the fact I am planning to store a car for 3-4 months. Other then having someone start it up say once a week, would this Sta-Bil as posted by Cobraboy or any other additive help for my gas system after I return? Thanks!:confused:
 

cobraboy

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You found out the hard way that over time, gasoline turns into a thick, varnish like substance, that can ruin your entire fuel system. This also applies to anyone that leaves their car parked for a while. You either need to empty out your tank or add a fuel stabilizer to prevent this from happening.

Need advise with the fact I am planning to store a car for 3-4 months. Other then having someone start it up say once a week, would this Sta-Bil as posted by Cobraboy or any other additive help for my gas system after I return? Thanks!:confused:
I have left gas with Sta-Bil in machines for over 6 months with ~zero~ negative effect. It works.
 

AZB

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ok, it seems the problem is not with clogging fuel injectors. here is what happened:
I was driving all day on gasoline and it was working just fine. Then I felt comfortable enough to switch it to propane to see if the automatic system would work. I switched on automatic and after 2k RPM, the system switched to propane. All went fine. Then I parked the car and after 2 hours tried to start the car again. Remember, now the car would start on gasoline and then switch over to propane after 2k RPM. The car started on gasoline but acted like it was running on 2 cylinders. The engine RPM would not increase, even after pressing on gas peddle. I can't raise the engine RPM, thus, the car won't switch to propane. Then the engine dies. I try to start it again, the engine runs rough for a few seconds and then dies. Dammit, it was happening again. This can't be clogged fuel injectors now. :(
I then simply put the switch on propane and started the car and drove it home.
Then I thought about that mechanic told me about computer getting confused and not starting the car as its programmed to do so. The chip was not giving out the signal to run at the right amount of RPM speed. So I disconnected the battery terminal and after 10 minutes, reconnected it again. This would surely reset the computer in the car. Sure enough, the car started on gasoline as if it never had any problems and ran fine. Now I am afraid to switch it to propane. I think the computer will get confused again. I was told, this happens to a few cars. Mine is camry 2000 4 cylinders. I think I would need the relay installed in my car to isolate the chip in ignition system or whatever the mechanic was trying to tell me.
More update later. Thanks.
AZB
 

Robert

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This is why the expensive kits leave all the original engine mapping in place and use sequential injectors.

Like most things in life, you get what you pay for :)
 

cobraboy

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AZB, I am not so sure your problem is "chip" thing. My guess is your automatic switch cold be intermittantly faulty. The symptoms you describe sound like the car is trying to start on propane, not gasoline. You have to have airflow through the intake system to deliver the propane early.
 

AZB

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Another mechanic tells me that the fuel pump is about to bite the dust because its been inactive for so long. it works good at times and then it faults other times. I want to know how many people with propane conversion are having trouble with their gasoline fuel system after a few months of running cars on propane? Mind you, my gas system works flawlessly. It maybe a unique problem to my car only.
I see people converting to this system on new expensive cars, they take the car straight from dealership to propane conversion places. Converting new cars to propane. This system can't be all that bad if people are taking new SUVs to convert them, straight from the dealership.
AZB
 

Robert

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I see people converting to this system on new expensive cars, they take the car straight from dealership to propane conversion places. Converting new cars to propane. This system can't be all that bad if people are taking new SUVs to convert them, straight from the dealership.
AZB

Ignorance is bliss!

95% of Dominicans buying used cars have no idea what the VIN number is or how to run a check on it. This is why the car lots are full 2-5 yr old chopped and sub-standard vehicles.

Last week I looked at a converted Land Rover Discovery (BRC Kit).
US$2,500 and an outstanding install. Owner brought the kit in Mexico and had it installed here. They replaced the fuel tank with a LPG tank and added a reserve fuel tank. It was all hidden and didn't effect the loading space or spare wheel.

Owner explained that due to the oxygen sensor and catalytic converter, it needed to be done right and not the typical "publico" install. Normally here they rip out the oxygen sensor and you get a lower MPG than you and eventually the catalytic converter gets screwed up. He also said that you need separate engine mapping (ECU) for both LPG and fuel, as they have different air/fuel ratios.

The owner was Dominican and had done lots of 4x4 experience, so I assume knew the value of doing it right.
 

Robert

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Let me add... everything was 100% automatic, no switches etc. It knew when the fuel or LPG was low and warned you and adjusted if needed. It auto started on fuel and automatically switched to LPG. Plus you could plug your laptop into the ECU to get info on setup and maps. I didn't see that part, but was assured it's a no brainier.
 
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AZB, I guess that your check engine light is on, so the first step to get some clues is to see what codes are stored in your ECU. The problem that you describe could be somewhere in the ignition system, fuel system, electrical, or elsewhere. Those codes can provide a good starting point for finding the problem.
 

Robert

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AZB, I guess that your check engine light is on, so the first step to get some clues is to see what codes are stored in your ECU. The problem that you describe could be somewhere in the ignition system, fuel system, electrical, or elsewhere. Those codes can provide a good starting point for finding the problem.

I'm sure they ripped it out when they did the install or completely disconnected it.
 
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Robert, what shop did the install on the Land Rover? I might look into picking up one of those kits for my car on my next trip to Italy.
 

Robert

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Not sure, but I will ask. I think it was the place I have mentioned before in a couple of previous LPG threads, sorry the name escapes me right now.
 

AZB

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AZB, I guess that your check engine light is on, so the first step to get some clues is to see what codes are stored in your ECU. The problem that you describe could be somewhere in the ignition system, fuel system, electrical, or elsewhere. Those codes can provide a good starting point for finding the problem.

The mechanic connected the plugged device to my car and then after a few tests he assured me that all system and components were working fine. Then he resetted my codes and check engine light went off. After 30 mins, the check engine light came back on. Its been on eversince I bought my car.
By the way, all my originally installed features work on my car, example: cruise control, the system plug to check the car with a computer etc. Doesn't matter if I am on gasoline or gas. I think I might be having fuel pump issues but its working fine so far. I am driving my car on gasoline for now.
AZB
 

TheHun

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The mechanic connected the plugged device to my car and then after a few tests he assured me that all system and components were working fine. Then he resetted my codes and check engine light went off. After 30 mins, the check engine light came back on. Its been on eversince I bought my car.
By the way, all my originally installed features work on my car, example: cruise control, the system plug to check the car with a computer etc. Doesn't matter if I am on gasoline or gas. I think I might be having fuel pump issues but its working fine so far. I am driving my car on gasoline for now.
AZB

AZB,
do you remember of the code/s stored in the ECM?? Would you share it?
It should be a P and 4 numbers in a format of P0000.
If the vent valve on the EVAP system stuck open you can have those symptoms.
Also, ECM would ignore the EVAP if fuel level less than 20% or higher than 80%, so keep your gas tank either almost empty or full and see if the problem is still there.
This is just a suggestion without seeing / diagnose your car. There are about 1000+ different reason for the "Check Engine" light being on.

TheHun
 

cobraboy

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On my conversion, which is working just fine after some fine tuning, I was told the"check engine" idiot light would come on. It has. It's an idiot light, not a diagnostic tool.

Robert, I don't know how the "typical publico installation" is done. I do know that my installation, done by Amarillis Valdez Autogas across from the big cemetary on Circunvalacion in Santiago, was correct for the less complex system. It meters gas into the intake like a carburettor does.

Some engines cannot use that system because of, among other issues, anti-backfire baffles in the cool air intake. Rocky's Lexus rocket-sled cannot use the less complex system. My 5.4l Ford E350 van can't use it. All require now specialty injectors be installed along with an ECU bypass. The injectors have to know when to meter individually, unlike the simple system.

If it's not a faulty gas/gasoline switch, I think Aftab has issues most likely not directly related to the propane install. He mentioned fuel pump. That could definitely cause those symptoms.

For cost savings, we did a 180 mile Jarabacoa-Moca-Sabeneta-Sosua-POP-Santiago-Jarabacoa loop on Thursday. If I had been using gasoline the fuel cost would have been RD$2600. My propane cost was RD$1050, a savings of RD$1550. Big difference. Even when the propane goes to RD$100, I would still save over RD$1000.

For my needs, and with a relatively simple 2002 4WD Nissan X-Terra, the conversion is most satisfying. The conversion was less than 5% of the value of the vehicle, and I project the payback to be 4 months at my established fuel usage. The complex system would have cost over 15% of the value of the vehicle, and the payback would have taken well over a year WITH the current fuel subsidies. To me, not a deal worth the capital outlay. But on a new $70,000 vehicle (like a Land Rover), the numbers change, and it may, at the end of the day, be worth it.

Bottom line: from either a functional perspective or a cost/benefit analysis, the simple propane conversion is something to definitely consider for the average, non especially complex vehicle. However, the conversion will not function properly if other systems are not working properly. The gasoline system MUST work properly for the propane system to work. With the "simple" system, the car HAS to start on gasoline to establish airflow into the engine before switching to propane. With the injector system, it does not.
 

cobraboy

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I've had a bunch of folks ask me about my propane conversion, especially what does it look like.

Here are the basic components of the simple, single venturi system, one extremely popular around the world for it's simplicity and low cost (about US$600-US$700 here). The vehicle is a 2002 Nissan X-Terra 4WD, the system is the proven, well known Romano Autogas system:

The tank. 20 gallons. The inlet is exactly like on the tank for your gas grill 20lb. one. It's designed to fit the space of a full-size spare tire. I carry the spare in the cargo area:
Tank-1.jpg


The Engine components. Note the hose from the regulator to the intake. That's it. That is where the propane enters the engine:
HoodSystem.jpg


Another view:
HoodSystemI.jpg


The toggle switch under the dash. It has three positions: gasoline, propane, or automatic. This is set far left, to automatic (center is propane, right is gasoline). The engine is off:
OffI.jpg


Engine is ALWAYS started on gasoline to get air flowing into the engine. Here it's idling on gasoline (red LED):
Gas.jpg


To convert to propane, you just blip the throttle before putting the transmission in gear, and it burbles for 1/5 of a second and them continues running, but now on propane. Here it's running on propane (yellow LED). The green LED is the fuel gauge, and had 4 LEDS. Here it's showing one of the four, showing the tank is less that 1/4 full, less than 5 gallons. Surprisingly accurate:
Propane.jpg


When running, you can toggle back and forth (not sure why you'd want to) between propane and gasoline. When the propane tank runs dry, the engine starts stumbling and losing power-you can't miss it-then you just reach down, toggle the switch to gasoline, and go your merry way. Dual fuel is cool.

After several months driving it on propane, I am VERY happy with the performance, ease of use, and cost savings. I did an oil change after 3000 miles, and it was extremely clean, no evidence of nastiness, even cleaner than the same brand oil/filter at the same mileage at the change. Cost savings are approx. US$.20 per mile compared to gasoline. The only negative is I only get 200 miles per tank of propane vs. 280 on gasoline, so fill-ups are a little more frequent. Only once did I have a problem finding propane because every station had "no hay" signs out front.

Would I do it again: absolutely, except much sooner. Would I gfo with the more expensive injector system if I couldn't use the simple, single-venturi system? Probably, maybe, if the vehicle was an expensive, newer model. It would take much longer to realize cost savings at US$2300 vs. US$700.