My Kids' Bilingual Education

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

YES, I KNOW THAT I'M POSTING ALOT THIS WEEK!!!

So here we go.......this is my plan for my children. Seeing as the majority of my Dominican and Boricua friends in the US are 2nd or 3rd generations in the US, I have seen their problems. One of my closest Dominican friends applied for an English/Spanish bilingual secretary job at a medical office and was denied because she could not pass the writing/reading spanish portion of their testing, although she speaks fluent spanish.
So basically what I keep trying to explain to the schools here is that when my children graduate High School, I want them to be able to speak, read, and write English and Spanish on the same level. It may be a little too late for my oldest seeing that she is already in High School but we will see.
The problem that I am having is that the quality bilingual schools do not seem to focus enough on the spanish so this is what I have planned...please tell me what you think.
My oldest is already taking spanish classes after school, and I do not plan on pressuring her too much as right now she has emough on her plate just being a teenager with the regular school work. She will be most likely attending SCS or New Horizons next year.
But with the 2 younger ones (ages 9 and 5) I plan to send them to spanish classes at Berlitz or similar program until school time next year (August 2009). With the hope that they will be able to function in a Dominican private school (taught in Spanish) next year. Send them to the Dominican private school and once they reach 9th grade, they will attend SCS or New Horizons also (SCS teaches in English and New Horizons is supposedly Bi-lingual). What do you guys see as Pros and/or Cons to this set-up???
Any other suggestions to how I can help them reach the goal of being FULLY (speaking, reading, and writing) bilingual?
Any other expats out there that moved with young children and have reached this goal?
What I definitely don't want are children that speak Spanish but leave me a note on the frig that reads " Mami, Fui al melcado a compral champoo de perros. El perro ta muy sucio, le tenia la cara con tiera y tube k kitarcela con una tualla"

SHALENA

suarezn · Dec 17, 2008

Sounds like a good plan to me...If I could do it all over again I would do something like that. My kids were born and grew up as Americans and unfortunately don't speak any Spanish (My failure...).

On a side note...wow you're getting really good at speaking "Dominican"...Pense k taba hablando con una cibaena...haha

cobraboy · Dec 17, 2008

A New Horizon's school is right behind Camp Moto, and we are good friends with many of their staff. They seem to do a fine job. bob saunders knows a lot about your subject, perhaps he can weigh in.

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

suarezn said:
Sounds like a good plan to me...If I could do it all over again I would do something like that. My kids were born and grew up as Americans and unfortunately don't speak any Spanish (My failure...).

On a side note...wow you're getting really good at speaking "Dominican"...Pense k taba hablando con una cibaena...haha

Yeah, I went to Berlitz to take some sort of placement test because their classes are leveled 1-8 (beginning to advanced) and they test you first...the teacher said that he was impressed except that I spoke too Dominican and he wanted me to practice putting the S back into the words!!! HAHAHA...
But he placed me at Level 6....my kids are going tomorrow to take thier tests.
SHALENA

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

cobraboy said:
A New Horizon's school is right behind Camp Moto, and we are good friends with many of their staff. They seem to do a fine job. bob saunders knows a lot about your subject, perhaps he can weigh in.

What's Bob's forum name?
SHALENA

Tamborista · Dec 17, 2008

SKing said:
What's Bob's forum name?
SHALENA

Oddly enough...bob saunders!

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

HAHA... I pm'd him, hopefully later he will weigh in
SHALENA

J D Sauser · Dec 17, 2008

I find it hard to believe anyone would not pass a Spanish READING test. Spanish probably being the easiest language to read, being almost phonetic. I do not know of any other language which the concept of writing and reading could be easier to teach than Spanish.
English, in contrast may be one of the most difficult to show that very concept to children. Most letters sound completely different to how they are called in the alphabet and may, depending on the letters before or after or other rules and many exceptions, have a variety of sounds and meanings, resulting now in US schools having given up on it and now resorting on teaching kids to "recognize" words instead of reading the sounds build up of letters of any word (in any language). In the end, they can't really READ and when they are faced with having to learn another language, they have to learn to read all over again too.
My oldest son started school when we lived in the US. For one and a half year, the whole class failed to learn to read and much less, write. Then we moved to Spain, and 3 months later, in Spanish, he was not only reading but writing. Only now, over 5 years later, is he attending a British school in Spain and had no problem adapting his reading and writing skills to the English language. He is bilingual in every sense of the word.
Melani, "my" Dominican girl, who at almost 8 years could not even draw a letter correctly In May of this year, now reads ANY word in Spanish and tries hard to analyze the sounds of most any simple word and write it. Most US schools teaching in English would probably get the president's visit if they'd had that success in so little time.

So, and thus my recommendation, is to take advantage of the fact that this is a Spanish speaking country, at least at the beginning and start writing instruction in that language.

... J-D.

Ezequiel · Dec 17, 2008

SKing said:
YES, I KNOW THAT I'M POSTING ALOT THIS WEEK!!!

So here we go.......this is my plan for my children. Seeing as the majority of my Dominican and Boricua friends in the US are 2nd or 3rd generations in the US, I have seen their problems. One of my closest Dominican friends applied for an English/Spanish bilingual secretary job at a medical office and was denied because she could not pass the writing/reading spanish portion of their testing, although she speaks fluent spanish.
So basically what I keep trying to explain to the schools here is that when my children graduate High School, I want them to be able to speak, read, and write English and Spanish on the same level. It may be a little too late for my oldest seeing that she is already in High School but we will see.
The problem that I am having is that the quality bilingual schools do not seem to focus enough on the spanish so this is what I have planned...please tell me what you think.
My oldest is already taking spanish classes after school, and I do not plan on pressuring her too much as right now she has emough on her plate just being a teenager with the regular school work. She will be most likely attending SCS or New Horizons next year.
But with the 2 younger ones (ages 9 and 5) I plan to send them to spanish classes at Berlitz or similar program until school time next year (August 2009). With the hope that they will be able to function in a Dominican private school (taught in Spanish) next year. Send them to the Dominican private school and once they reach 9th grade, they will attend SCS or New Horizons also (SCS teaches in English and New Horizons is supposedly Bi-lingual). What do you guys see as Pros and/or Cons to this set-up???
Any other suggestions to how I can help them reach the goal of being FULLY (speaking, reading, and writing) bilingual?
Any other expats out there that moved with young children and have reached this goal?
What I definitely don't want are children that speak Spanish but leave me a note on the frig that reads " Mami, Fui al melcado a compral champoo de perros. El perro ta muy sucio, le tenia la cara con tiera y tube k kitarcela con una tualla"
SHALENA

Your kids already speak English, place them in normal Dominican school especially the teenage one, and send them to English classes in the afternoon, and, of course, you help them with the reading and writing in English.

Marianopolita · Dec 17, 2008

Proper Spanish is a must-

It's a relief to hear that someone brought that to your attention. Please heed the warning. For some reason some foreigners desire to adopt the Dominican vernacular 100% and most of the time pick up the worst habits of speech. This has been my observation and notably on DR1. Outside of the DR, meaning the rest of the Spanish-speaking world dropping the /s/ and worst yet adding it where it does not belong is not prestigious. Not to say that other speakers from other countries do not however, the fundamental difference is that in the DR and el espa?ol antillano in general, it's a salient feature.

Furthermore, those with a mediocre education do not write properly as a result and can be categorized as semi-illiterate. The rules of grammar and spelling apply across the board in the Spanish language. It's not correct to write without the /s/ where it belongs just because in the spoken language in the DR most people drop the /s/. Follow your game plan and stay on top of your children's education in Spanish in the DR. You are in a country where the education standards are very low and your kids will be victims of the system if you do not take control over the situation. Yes, it's hard work but you own the success and failure of your kid's education in their formative years. You will make the difference if you remain as a strong influence in their educational success.

The example of your friend speaks to a number of Latinos (not immigrants but the second generation and older) in the USA who speak Spanish per se but can't read and write. They write Spanish using English phonetics and they write the way they speak meaning broken and incoherent phrases. Keep in mind the vernacular of any country has its place but if you deviate too far away from the standard and never learn to speak proper Spanish in first place you are doing yourself a huge disservice. Enjoy the DR vernacular and I think you need to understand and speak it at times but remember that standard Spanish will prevail anywhere and champion you and your kid's professional success.

Good luck!

-LDG.

SKing said:
Yeah, I went to Berlitz to take some sort of placement test because their classes are leveled 1-8 (beginning to advanced) and they test you first...the teacher said that he was impressed except that I spoke too Dominican and he wanted me to practice putting the S back into the words!!! HAHAHA...
But he placed me at Level 6....my kids are going tomorrow to take thier tests.
SHALENA

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

J D Sauser said:
I find it hard to believe anyone would not pass a Spanish READING test. Spanish probably being the easiest language to read, being almost phonetic. I do not know of any other language which the concept of writing and reading could be easier to teach than Spanish.
English, in contrast may be one of the most difficult to show that very concept to children. Most letters sound completely different to how they are called in the alphabet and may, depending on the letters before or after or other rules and many exceptions, have a variety of sounds and meanings, resulting now in US schools having given up on it and now resorting on teaching kids to "recognize" words instead of reading the sounds build up of letters of any word (in any language). In the end, they can't really READ and when they are faced with having to learn another language, they have to learn to read all over again too.
My oldest son started school when we lived in the US. For one and a half year, the whole class failed to learn to read and much less, write. Then we moved to Spain, and 3 months later, in Spanish, he was not only reading but writing. Only now, over 5 years later, is he attending a British school in Spain and had no problem adapting his reading and writing skills to the English language. He is bilingual in every sense of the word.
Melani, "my" Dominican girl, who at almost 8 years could not even draw a letter correctly In May of this year, now reads ANY word in Spanish and tries hard to analyze the sounds of most any simple word and write it. Most US schools teaching in English would probably get the president's visit if they'd had that success in so little time.

So, and thus my recommendation, is to take advantage of the fact that this is a Spanish speaking country, at least at the beginning and start writing instruction in that language.

... J-D.

I will do that but as crazy as it may sound...alot of my US Hispanic friends CAN"T read spanish. You don't know how many of them forward/email to me text messages they receive in order for me to translate them! I always tell them...just read it aloud!!!:ermm:

Ezequiel said:
Your kids already speak English, place them in normal Dominican school especially the teenage one, and send them to English classes in the afternoon, and, of course, you help them with the reading and writing in English.

My teenager could not possible go to a Dominican private school, her spanish is not up to par...she is having trouble in her sociales class now...the ONE class that is taught in Spanish at her school. She got straight As on her report card but a C in sociales and the teacher said that it was completely because she does not understand the language. She is very studious and cried because of that C...I will be sending her to SCS.

Lesley D said:
It's a relief to hear that someone brought that to your attention. Please heed the warning. For some reason some foreigners desire to adopt the Dominican vernacular 100% and most of the time pick up the worst habits of speech. This has been my observation and notably on DR1. Outside of the DR, meaning the rest of Spanish-speaking world dropping the /s/ and worst yet adding it where it does not belong is not prestigious. Not to say that other speakers from other countries do not however, the fundamental difference is that in the DR and el espa?ol antillano in general, it's a salient feature.

Furthermore, those with a mediocre education do not write properly as a result and can be categorized as semi-illiterate. The rules of grammar and spelling apply across the board in the Spanish language. It's not correct to write without the /s/ where it belongs just because in the spoken language in the DR most people drop the /s/. Follow your game plan and stay on top of your children's education in Spanish in the DR. You are in a country where the education standards are very low and your kids will be victims of the system if you do not take control over the situation. Yes, it's hard work but you own the success and failure of your kid's education in their formative years. You will make the difference if you remain as a strong influence in their educational success.

The example of your friend speaks to a number of Latinos (not immigrants but the second generation and older) in the USA who speak Spanish per ser but can't read and write. They write Spanish using English phonetics and they write the way they speak meaning broken and incoherent phrases. Keep in mind the vernacular of any country has its place but if you deviate too far away from the standard and never learn to speak proper Spanish in first place you are doing yourself a huge disservice. Enjoy the DR vernacular and I think you need to understand and speak it at times but remember that standard Spanish will prevail anywhere and champion you and your kid's professional success.

Good luck!

-LDG.

Yes, the problem that I am finding though is because I have never taken any formal Spanish classes (all of my Spanish I learned from immersion with my friends in NC) that if you were saying "epalda" instead of "espalda" for 18 months, it becomes second nature and second nature takes alot of work to change! I learned Spanish from them for at least a year before I picked up a book and actually LOOKED at the words. So I am now always correcting them with spelling when I get emails or messages...some of them won't even write to me in Spanish anymore! But I appreciate all that they have taught me because look....I am at level 6 in Berlitz! But because I am a Nurse and I speak Spanish at work, I cannot afford to sound uneducated when I speak Spanish. I mean, the verbs are going to be harder because "Diaaaaablo, que tu quiere" rolls off of my tongue alot easier than "Diaaablo, que tu quieres"...it takes effort on my part to say that.
Also at the Open House of my children's school, the Admissions Coordinator (wife of the principal) did not pronounce one S in her whole speech!
SHALENA

La Mariposa · Dec 17, 2008

SKing said:
I will do that but as crazy as it may sound...alot of my US Hispanic friends CAN"T read spanish. You don't know how many of them forward/email to me text messages they receive in order for me to translate them! I always tell them...just read it aloud!!!:ermm:

My teenager could not possible go to a Dominican private school, her spanish is not up to par...she is having trouble in her sociales class now...the ONE class that is taught in Spanish at her school. She got straight As on her report card but a C in sociales and the teacher said that it was completely because she does not understand the language. She is very studious and cried because of that C...I will be sending her to SCS.

Yes, the problem that I am finding though is because I have never taken any formal Spanish classes (all of my Spanish I learned from immersion with my friends in NC) that if you were saying "epalda" instead of "espalda" for 18 months, it becomes second nature and second nature takes alot of work to change! I learned Spanish from them for at least a year before I picked up a book and actually LOOKED at the words. So I am now always correcting them with spelling when I get emails or messages...some of them won't even write to me in Spanish anymore! But I appreciate all that they have taught me because look....I am at level 6 in Berlitz! But because I am a Nurse and I speak Spanish at work, I cannot afford to sound uneducated when I speak Spanish. I mean, the verbs are going to be harder because "Diaaaaablo, que tu quiere" rolls off of my tongue alot easier than "Diaaablo, que tu quieres"...it takes effort on my part to say that.
Also at the Open House of my children's school, the Admissions Coordinator (wife of the principal) did not pronounce one S in her whole speech!
SHALENA

Shalena, dont say: Diaaaaablo, que tu quieres, even with an S.
You should and must say: Que quieres. If you use Diaaaablo that's the way your kids are going to learn and talk. One day they are going to say diaaaaablo in front of some people and you will want to see you under the table saying: Ay Dios, que verguenza me hace pasar ese ni?o mio.

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

La Mariposa said:
Shalena, dont say: Diaaaaablo, que tu quieres, even with an S.
You should and must say: Que quieres. If you use Diaaaablo that's the way your kids are going to learn and talk. One day they are going to say diaaaaablo in front of some people and you will want to see you under the table saying: Ay Dios, que verguenza me hace pasar ese ni?o mio.

Oh, no....I don't say that to my kids...lets just say to a male friend or two

There are certain spanish words that I don't use in front of them and that is one...I still cannot control what they hear from other peoples' children...I caught my son when he was 4 telling the son of another Dominican friend "No me joda!" and I don't even say that so God knows where he heard it.
SHALENA

Ezequiel · Dec 17, 2008

Sking

My teenager could not possible go to a Dominican private school, her spanish is not up to par...she is having trouble in her sociales class now...the ONE class that is taught in Spanish at her school. She got straight As on her report card but a C in sociales and the teacher said that it was completely because she does not understand the language. She is very studious and cried because of that C...I will be sending her to SCS.

She's only taking "Sociales" in Spanish in school? That's not good in my personal opinion, she needs to be immersed in Spanish, she needs to have friends that only Speak Spanish.

I know Dominican families that moved from the STATES with their American kids that hardly speak Spanish, and they placed them in normal "Swim or sink" and they learned Spanish fast, believe me she will learn it once she knows she has no other choice.

J D Sauser · Dec 17, 2008

SKing said:
I will do that but as crazy as it may sound...alot of my US Hispanic friends CAN"T read spanish. You don't know how many of them forward/email to me text messages they receive in order for me to translate them! I always tell them...just read it aloud!!!:ermm:

...

They can't READ... not just Spanish. As they have been taught the new US way to "read" (English), by recognizing entire words only, they do not really know what reading really is and only can "read" specific words in English.
Once one can really read in one language, by attribution of sound value to each letter in a word, one can use that same knowledge to most any language (with the obvious linguistic differences) and thus also quicker learn new languages.
Reading out loud is a great language learning tool too. And best of all, it's FREE.

... J-D.

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

Ezequiel said:
Sking

She's only taking "Sociales" in Spanish in school? That's not good in my personal opinion, she needs to be immersed in Spanish, she needs to have friends that only Speak Spanish.

I know Dominican families that moved from the STATES with their American kids that hardly speak Spanish, and they placed them in normal "Swim or sink" and they learned Spanish fast, believe me she will learn it once she knows she has no other choice.

That is cool when the child is not in High School...I will not risk my daughter's college education for her to learn Spanish. She got a C in sociales...a child that never gets C's. If I put her in a Dominican school she will get C's in all classes. And there goes her cometetive edge to University entrance. She wants to be a lawyer and is very serious about her studies. That is not an option for me for her...for the other 2, yes. They will be enrolled in a Dominican private school next year and like you said "sink or swim", I give them 6 months and they will be swimming!!! But they are old enough to overcome 6 months of bad grades if need be....my teenager, no, it affects her GPA. No go.
SHALENA

RGVgal · Dec 17, 2008

I thinks it's great you are going to ensure that your kids learn Spanish. I'm having a hard time teaching my son Spanish. I'm afraid that at the moment he only knows a few words. When he gets older, I plan on sending him to the DR with my mom for the summer so he can take Spanish classes.

curiosita · Dec 17, 2008

On the perspective of language pedagogy

I think it is wonderful to ensure that your kids become fully bi-lingual/bi-literate. However, I don't think that Berlitz is the best idea, especially given the ages of your younger children. The only experts on language acquisition that think Berlitz is a good program are those experts hired by Berlitz. It's really a waste of money.

If I were in the US, I would look for a "dual-immersion" school/program. These programs teach in a full immersion method in both English and Spanish, and--at least in California--the students graduating from these programs have out performed English only students on all levels. In the DR, I would send my child to a "good" school in Spanish and speak only English in the home. That is the recommendation for retaining/achieving bilingualism from the most recent studies. Since English literacy is markedly more difficult than Spanish (Spanish is completely phonetic), you would need to dedicate time helping your children learn to read in English (both decoding and comprehension), but depending on your own level of education, this shouldn’t be too hard. (At least for the 9 yr old, who should already be reading. For the 5 year old it might be more difficult, but not too bad.)

For your older daughter, I would not worry about putting her in all-Spanish school, but I understand your concern and reserve my comments.

curiosita · Dec 17, 2008

Helping your kids speak "proper" Spanish/English

As for making sure your kids speak "proper Spanish" or "proper English"--I won't enter into the debates on the (in)validity of that concept--what is really important is that your kids have a rich and sophisticated vocabulary and understanding of the language. This ability is necessary in English as well as Spanish and is only really gained from active, regular reading (and writing). Once you are meaningfully literate, it won't matter if you say "como 'ta ute," you will know that the phrase is written "como esta usted." Also, you will learn formal grammer, even if you don't use it in your personal life. I almost NEVER use the "vosotros" form and I religiously avoid using commands, but I understand them perfectly and I can use them when I have to. Why? I read them all the time. As for being able to communicate, the more experiences your children have with diverse speakers of Spanish (and English), the more quickly they will get the concept of accents and they will intuit with some speakers/in some situations it is better to speak more formally, and being well read will make iot possible for them to do this.

...So, make sure your kids read, read, read (magazines, books, everything) in BOTH languages.

By the way, despite what many people claim, their accents will not matter much. For most of my life, I had a very pronounced Mexican accent, and I now have a fairly pronounced Caribbean one (Dominican/Cibao with some distinct PR vocabulary and patterns). My accents have never caused me problems in my professional life because my vocabulary has always been very rich. (Again, it works the same in English. People would probably dismiss me as a brainless-California-stereotype if it were not for the language I use, even though I have pronounced ?valley? accent.) Lots of people carry the false baggage that how they speak in Spain is "better" than the DR or anywhere else that's not Spain, but this really only hurts people who sound Latin American/Caribbean if they can?t back up their accent with confidence and advanced vocab (by which I mean US version 12th grade education).

Check out these resources

FAQ; Multilingual Children's Association
Bilingual/Bicultural Family Network

SKing · Dec 17, 2008

Curiosita...
Thanks so much for all of the information and advice. It means alot. My 9 year old will be fine retaining her English as she is in 4th grade and tested in reading on an end of 5th grade level, she writes tons of stories and I usually have to buy her one of those cheap 1 subject spiral notebooks every 2 weeks or so because she writes so much. With her I would just reinforce her English and each year give her higher level reading and writing exercises to do in English. My son, I am a little more worried about seeing as he only has a grasp of the alphabet and a few words (cat,mat,sit,etc) and I am NOT the teacher type...reinforcement I can do, teaching I cannot. I will read to him a little more in English pointing to the words as I read and have him do some workbooks gradually in English. There are very good Dominican private schools here in Santiago and the ones that have been recommended to me by the middle class families in my neighborhood range from 800RD-1500RD per month...a far cry from the 6,000RD per month that I am now paying for each child in a bilingual "US style" school that has my daughter doing math that she did 2 years ago (but that's another gripe). I feel a like it will all work out.
I am giving up on Berlitz and looking for an informal teacher for them, just until the next school year. Berlitz wanted 33,000RD for me and approx. 18,000RD for each one of the kids for 3 months of classes! What a rip-off...
Again, Thanks for the advice EVERYONE and I will keep you all updated on their progress. If anyone has anymore advice or words of encouragement, keep it comin'
SHALENA

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