Article: Espa?ol, con acento en la "che"

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Marianopolita

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An article was published recently in BBC Mundo about Argentina's new found popularity as a place to study Spanish. It's quite ironic that the economic crisis of Argentina at the begin of this decade is what accounts for it being an attractive and economic venue to study Spanish, a language that's enjoying its highest level of international popularity among the top five most spoken languages in the world.


After the collapse of Argentina's economy at the end of 2001 and persistent high unemployment and poverty until 2003, the country became a haven for bargain basement deals which has attracted tourists from Europe, USA and Brazil. Hotels, food, airfare, and basic commodities became available at cheap prices and even today visiting Argentina is considered a deal and the lower prices have played a role in the surge of its tourism during the past five years post the economic crisis/ collapse.

It's interesting how such a grave economic crisis in an otherwise stable Latin country as compared to others in the region is benefiting from its own demise. Not only has Argentina made a gradual comeback since 2003 and still is in the 'recuperation phase', it's an added bonus the fact that there is profound interest by many all over the world to learn Spanish. A prestige French once had (and up until not too long ago, less than two decades) which Spanish now enjoys. Students are choosing Argentina as a country of choice to pursue their studies because it's affordable. The influx of tourists for a bargain vacation (compared to what the prices used to be) and now a prime location to study Spanish are some instant remedies for an economy that collapsed completely leaving many in abject poverty, without access to their own funds and unprepared for the struggled that lay ahead.

I think the article is food for thought about studying Spanish abroad. What should students or adults pursuing studies in Spanish consider when choosing their country of study? Other than costs, accommodation and safety which are a given, what are the academic objectives that should be considered?

A student's choice will most likely depend on the purpose of studying abroad whether it's for casual learning or part of a degree program. However, IMO, I think the choice of study should be one that fulfills the objective of the student or adult learner. It's quite the journey from any European country to Argentina therefore, the study program should be worthwhile. According to the article, Buenos Aires is second to Madrid as the prime place to study Spanish.

As well, one must consider the academic standards in certain countries. In general, in Latin America to find quality education can be a challenge but some universities, foreign language schools and programs etc. are better than others. As well, many question what will be taught. It should be the standard but in the case of Argentina, the vernacular influence of 'vos' and its conjugation may be a factor but the student can adjust. In the article, it is mentioned that the 't?' forms are taught and students are made aware of the 'vos' variant that is part of Argentina's vernacular.

Specific to the DR, in your opinion is the DR a good place to study Spanish? Taking into consideration the DR vernacular, the education standards and some of the non standard speech patterns, how does the DR compare to other Latin American countries that have better education standards etc?

The article: BBC Mundo | Cultura y Sociedad | Espa?ol, con acento en la "che"


-LDG.
 

DaniJ

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Specific to the DR, in your opinion is the DR a good place to study Spanish? Taking into consideration the DR vernacular, the education standards and some of the non standard speech patterns, how does the DR compare to other Latin American countries that have better education standards etc?

Speaking for me, personally, I decided to study in the Dominican Republic for several reasons. One was that (as silly as it may sound) it was important for me to go somewhere with a nice sized population of those of African descent, like myself...a comfort thing, I guess. I also did not want to go to Mexico or Spain, which are very common places for students that study abroad. Panama was of great interest, but I was not able to find a suitable program. My school is affiliated with a program that sends students to PUCMM; so that is how I found myself in Santiago. The vernacular/speech patterns did not deter me. I did receive a few strange looks from the parents of the children I work with and from coworkers (all Latinas from various countries) and questioning about why I had chosen to go to Santiago to learn Spanish. More than anything I saw the rapid-fire speech and the shortening of words as a challenge to overcome... if I could learn to fully understand Spanish spoken at this speed, I should be able to converse with any other spanish speaker. The speech patterns that are heard in the Dominican Republic shouldn't cause anyone to change their mind about studying there, as the professors in the university all (at least the ones I had) speak proper spanish. Sure, I did pick up some of the "bad stuff" from listening to music and others speak, but I know that if I say "lao" instead of "lado" its just me being lazy, not that I don't know the correct way to say the word.

Now for the standards of education, this is a good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. Most students coming form the states will probably see that yes they will learn a lot, but the courses won't be quite as rigorous as those at their home university. But, the thing is, even if the university is not the equivalent of a Harvard or Yale, it will still definitely be a challenge for a foreigner. I don't consider the PUCMM to be a cake walk, then add to that the fact that all of your courses are in a language that, upon arrival, you only speak at an intermediate level...research must be done in Spanish, papers written in Spanish, exams taken in Spanish... not easy. Unfortunately, I ended up with a grammar professor that wasted a lot of time, and thought giving bachata and salsa lessons to the class was a better idea than teaching Spanish. I learned a lot more in my other courses, especially a Literature class I took. I have not had the opportunity to travel to any other Spanish speaking countries to compare, I would assume that there are a few other countries that have more to offer in the way of teaching Spanish. The PUCMM is probably one of the better options for someone that really wants to learn Spanish in the DR. Someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the language may have trouble though compared already knows the at least the basics and is able to separate the 'proper' Spanish, from the 'not so proper' Spanish as to not accidentally pick up any bad habits.

Sorry for rambling... its very late and my thoughts are all over the place. I will probably come back to clean this up tomorrow.
 

wildnfree

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After wanting to learn Spanish in the DR, I decided to come to Spain as to be honest with you, when I was making investigations many DR1 members discouraged me from studying there.

Spain worked out to be good (and bad) for several reasons. Like DaniJ above, I wanted to be in a country where the majority looked like me (I'm italian descent) as I had spent several years previously in Asia and wanted to blend in for a change. I chose Andalucia, not Madrid, as the Spanish is rapidfire and words cut in half with the idea that when I conquer this Spanish I will understand anyone.

The costs are enormous to study in language schools here and having worked in several I saw standards were less important and earning money was everything. Ironically, it was much cheaper to study in the University. I learnt doing the occasional course, working as a waiter and living with Spanish speakers.I decided Spain would be good to find work as well and intergrate me, rather than be a tourist/student. I went through the same thing as the writer above, people would be shocked that I actually wanted to learn Andaluz (due to its low prestige outside the region) and other speakers found it amusing to hear a non-native speak it.

In Spain the good thing is the variety of local cultures, the fact you can choose to be with spanish or expats as you wish, free health care. I also look at the health situation of the country where I want to study, and the low-ish crime rate. The fact that there are immigrants from all over latin america means you can expose yourself to different dialects which helps (confuses!) the learner.

The idea that you learn the hardest dialect to understand all of them -Im not sure its true, for example I have no problem understanding costal spanish, caribbean or Andaluz, but when someone starts sing-song mexican or colombian i still need time to work it all out.
 

Marianopolita

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My thoughts-

*LONG POST*

I think the key factor here is short term vs. long term study. According to the article Buenos Aires is the second most popular venue where foreigners choose to pursue their Spanish studies however, the average length of the courses per student is two to four weeks. Therefore, by classification these are intense lessons most likely at all levels or special foreign study programs either offered by universities or language centers that offer Spanish lessons for foreigners.

The choice of where to study other than the key factors already mentioned in my first post should revolve around the students? objective(s) and level of Spanish. Keep in mind some students may also be bilingual already but may be looking for something completely specific about the course work. It could be part of their language degree requirement, or more of a personal venture such as academics combined with travel etc. The reasons for taking a Spanish course are numerous and that?s not discussed in the article at all other than a general sense for the passion to learn the language.

Having stated the above, I think the DR can be a good place but certainly with limited options. One good university IMO does not make it a competitive choice and again one has to look at what it has to offer. Short term vs. long term program studies vs. intense courses is what needs to be considered. As well, the quality of teaching by the faculty (el profesorado) is very important. In a two week or four week intense program it?s not as important but for long term study, you have to get what you pay for. Good quality teaching should go a long way although much depends on the aptitude, effort, willingness and commitment of the student to learn. One can have an excellent teacher or professor but with a lazy student it is not a formula for success; actually it?s a waste of the teacher or professor?s time. However, I would hope that adults who sacrifice their time and money to study abroad have a clear focused objective.

In terms of what is taught in Spanish courses, I refer to any institute of education in Latin America, it should be the standard. If the teachers or professors are good and have a broad knowledge of the language they will surely be able to address some of the vernacular differences that people will hear in country which is an important part of language learning as well. Not only does it show the diversity in the regional and colloquial speech of the language but it will address a lot of the issues about language that the students will have especially the advanced or bilingual speakers. The diversity makes for interesting discussions about the variety of the language.

The article mentioned one variant that is specific to Latin America and Argentina in particular which is the usage of vos and the conjugations that one will hear but it should have also mentioned the pronunciation of certain words which was alluded to in the title of the article 'con acento en la che'. Each country will have its own speech varieties whether it?s lexicon, syntax, morphology, pronunciation etc. That?s what makes Spanish in the Americas unique but amazingly still very unified. Here?s is a comment from a participant of a recent academic congress held in Cartagena, Colombia in 2007 in which twenty two directors of the RAE affiliates in Latin America participated and had to bring to the discussion table peculiarities of Spanish spoken in their respective countries ('los rasgos distintivos del espa?ol hablado en cada uno de sus pa?ses'):

El fen?meno del voseo en Argentina y Nicaragua ha sido explicado por el desarrollo m?s lento e irregular de la variante andaluza o atl?ntica del espa?ol, por estar ambos territorios, durante la ?poca colonial, alejados de los centros virreinales. No fue el caso, por ejemplo, de M?xico y Per?, y del espa?ol hablado del Caribe hispano, donde se destaca la presencia del t? sujeto en expresiones de tipo ??Qu? dices??, ??D?nde est?s??, ??D?nde vives??, utilizadas en las restantes provincias de la lengua. Sin embargo, en Cuba, Puerto Rico y Rep?blica Dominicana, la presencia de dicho pronombre forma parte de la norma de prestigio: ?Qu? t? dices??. ??C?mo t? est?s??. ??D?nde t? vives??. El t?, incrustado en las estructuras indicadas, constituye un principio dialectal y una variante del sistema.


-This a classic example of one of the variants in Spanish specific to the Caribbean basin. It?s non standard and it?s important for those learning Spanish to acknowledge that this is part of the syntax structure of those speakers raised in the aforementioned countries or regions which includes the coastal regions of Colombia, Venezuela and parts of Panama.

I don?t believe one should choose their country of study based on preferred regional speech varieties at least not for short term studies. The primary concern should be the quality of Spanish and then regionalisms, colloquialisms, slang etc. will be added bonuses which one can learn overtime by either living in the country, interacting with the locals or out of sheer interest. And yes, cultural similarities should be taking into account as well. I completely agree with that.


-LDG.
 
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wildnfree

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The problem I have found with learning quality or "standard" Spanish is that there is none. I have had the opportunity to live and associate with people with Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico, all over Spain ect. This has exposed me to the differences in speech and syntax and one thing that holds true - everyone is convinced that in their country they speak the best Spanish and everyone else doesn't.
 

Marianopolita

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Dec 26, 2003
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Spanish grammar is universal that is the standard with exceptions...

wildnfree,

I don't agree with your point.

Please keep in mind, when discussing the standard this means what is taught in the classroom by teachers and professors, i.e. grammar, phonetics, spelling, not the opinions of locals or friends you associate with. Yes, then of course it turns into a matter of opinion. In formal studies teachers don't teach their own preferred local version of the language. The standard refers to references such as grammar books, dictionaries etc. that all speakers use then regionalisms and colloquialisms are a different level of speech.


-LDG.
 

2LeftFeet

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Dec 1, 2006
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I was looking into studing in BsAs. The main university there, I can't remember the name right now, has a very good linguistics program. They also teach Spanish to non native speakers. It's all FREE and you do not have to be a citizen of Argentina to attend and get these benefits.

I was amazed to find this out.

Like Lesley said they have 2 week programs and much longer programs.

What I am curious to know is.... is vos taught in school and used in the media, if it's going to be used or is it just just spoken and tu is formally used in schools and the media?
 

wildnfree

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I was looking into studing in BsAs. The main university there, I can't remember the name right now, has a very good linguistics program. They also teach Spanish to non native speakers. It's all FREE and you do not have to be a citizen of Argentina to attend and get these benefits.

I was amazed to find this out.

Like Lesley said they have 2 week programs and much longer programs.

What I am curious to know is.... is vos taught in school and used in the media, if it's going to be used or is it just just spoken and tu is formally used in schools and the media?


Well here they teach us "vosotros" even though it isnt used in this region of Spain (but it is encroaching poco a poco). Vosotros would be out of place if not wrong on the other side of the charco put it is taught here.In Argentina, I would presume they teach their students argentinian Spanish, vos ten?s un carro as opposed to tu tienes un coche (which would be said here).

I cant tell you how many times friends and associates even strangers have corrected(told me off ) for using words not of the region but from other parts of Spain or even South America. It was inevitable as I mentioned before I live with South Americans yet live in Spain. Im starting to develop a "code-switch" now, so when Im speaking to south americans I will use:(it was just easier than being corrected and having to justify the word used)

Chismoso Vs. Cortilla
Carro vs. Coche
Usted vs Tu
Nalga vs Culo
Ahorita vs Ahora mismo
calz?n vs. Calconcillos
manejar vs. conducir
Licencia vs. Carn?t de conducir

I found, should I not do this, its easier for LAs to understand peninsular spanish than the other way around.

A side issue, you would obviously need to be living/using Spanish much longer than 2 weeks to get a grasp of it.

*hope I didnt deviate from topic just wanted to share example that they teach something not used here and wondering if they do the same in Argentina ie. we teach you tienes but outside the room say *ten?s*
 
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2LeftFeet

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Hi Wildnfree... I asked my friend today. She couldn't remember from when she was a child but she did tell me that they were taught llorer (pronounced yourer) instead of zhorer the way the pronouce it in BsAs. Written material will use vos intead of tu.

They must not have taught it in school because she did go on to say she did not know where to put the accents when she was first learning it. She had to figure it out.

I find the variations in the language very interesting. Even between the LA countries.
 
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