Age and race discrimination by DR employers?

AlterEgo said:

Annie, the first time I saw one of those ads I was very surprised. Certainly no age-discrimination laws in DR. Family members have told me it's next to impossible for a person 40+ to find a good job there. I've also heard that it extends to the person's skin tone, the lighter candidates will often get the job - is that true?

Click to expand...

Classism and ageism....alot of 'ism's'!
I guess being too old and too dark prevent some from gettig a good job?
Cant move up to a better job and therefore a higher class.
Oh what to do?

3-2-1...Nals and Vacara will have a response to the last sentence in your post. According to them 'colour' is not an issue in the DR....lol

Thandie said:

Classism and ageism....alot of 'ism's'!
I guess being too old and too dark prevent some from gettig a good job?
Cant move up to a better job and therefore a higher class.
Oh what to do?

3-2-1...Nals and Vacara will have a response to the last sentence in your post. According to them 'colour' is not an issue in the DR....lol

Click to expand...

Do you guys need to infiltrate every thread with this issue? Really, its not necessary.

Lina Toca de Ginebra, Director of Marketing @ CardNet

Marcos Feliz, Manager of Trademarketing and Events @ Viva Dominicana

Eduardo Mej?a Cerda, Senior Administrative of Sales @ Tricom

Eduard Reyes Estrella, Manager of Telephone Circuits @ Orange Dominicana

Santiago Suero, District Manager @ P?ginas Amarillas

Miguelina Rojas, Corporate Manager of Human Resource @ Grupo Metro

M?rtires Montero M?ndez, Marketing Counselor @ Infotep

Gilberto Soto Jerez, IT Director @ Mitsubishi Co. Dominicana

Gisenia Bravo and Noem? Rosario, high ranking women @ Plastifar

Luis Marino L?pez, President of the Cluster Tur?stico Santo Domingo

Joel Santos, ex President of ANJE

William Arias, Engineering Manager @ Precision Engineering

Yris Soriano, Human Resource Manager @ Precision Engineering

Jennifer Cubilette, Marketing Manager @ Almacenes Sema

Tomasina Salazar, Administrative Manager @ Crisfer

Claudia Fabi?n, Customer Service Manager @ Crisfer

The list is long, so I'll end it here.

But, go ahead and tell them that dark skin Dominicans are not employed into positions of power due to their skin color. Don't feel insulted if they suddenly burst into a giant laugh and think you are ridiculous for having such assertion. Their achievements is enough proof to debunk your assertions.

Some of you need to stop pretending you know the DR, because you don't.

BTW, whatever you do, don't enter the headquarters of Grupo Leon Jimenes, the most admired company in the DR. You might just go into a shock of some sort.

-NALs

What did I start? LOL

Bueno, I see some are very passionate around here so I will try to put it as delicately as I can...

No I don't live in D.R., however, I have family members (Dad, brothers, sisters, etc) that live there and also folks that constantly travel to from DR and ever since my curiosity sparked about possibly moving to DR I have been talking here and there with my family in DR and the folks that travel there constantly... I must admit that I never touched the touchy subject of Dominican Society and how are things there as far as race, position, class, etc, etc until yesterday...

And I was shocked that even though I left my country 26 years ago, and DR has made great advances in technology, transportation, telecommunications, education, etc... Todavia estan atrazados from a Sociological point... The dominant social group that pretty much dictates Dominican Society and how its runned still exists and is alive and thriving just like it was 2 decades ago when I left.... Basically there has not been a shift in many of the typical frame of thoughts that have plagued our society for many many years... Basically things that will never be allowed here in the US are still very much alive in DR...

You can sit there and type name of every top ranking executive of colour in DR, that fact still remains that is still a very small percentage... And if you interviewed any of them, I am pretty sure also that a lot of them will say that they were not completely free of the trials and tribulations that people of colour face in DR...

I will give two of a few examples of how the dominant social group which most consist of light skin or white Dominicans dictate how the rest of DR lives:

1. Women with what some DR people refer to as "pelo malo" are slaves of having to go to the Salon to make their hair stick straight. Why? Because they are blinded into thinking that embracing their natural hair (curly, coarse hair) is not the way to go... that they must emulate the European side of our heritage instead to be more acceptable and negate the African roots that run deep in our blood...

2. Dominicans that are under the impression that being Spanish or Latino Americano is an actual race... This is the funniest one to me... "No I am not black, I am Spanish, or Dominican"... I haven't touched up on our history lately... but if my memory serves me right... When slavery of Africans into the Americas was abolished they were still being brought to the caribbean specially into Quisqueya... That frame of thought right there is the most damaging to me, because it shows that a lot of us are very ashamed of our roots and who we really are... Why? Because the dominant sociological group in DR is light skin, or white... and is of middle class or higher... and the 70%+ of our population that happens to be black or a mix of is driven to shame by the smaller percentage that holds most power in DR...

I could continue to write a book about the atrocities that I heard yesterday but I am tired of typing now... I will back later... LOL

The leader of the DR Leonel Fernandez is not white, so it is obvious that citizens that are not white can aspire to and achieve the highest office in the country. Does mean there is no racism in the DR, NO, but in means there is less than many think.

indy2273 said:

What did I start? LOL

... I must admit that I never touched the touchy subject of Dominican Society and how are things there as far as race, position, class, etc, etc until yesterday...

And I was shocked that even though I left my country 26 years ago, and DR has made great advances in technology, transportation, telecommunications, education, etc... Todavia estan atrazados from a Sociological point... The dominant social group that pretty much dictates Dominican Society and how its runned still exists and is alive and thriving just like it was 2 decades ago when I left.... Basically there has not been a shift in many of the typical frame of thoughts that have plagued our society for many many years... Basically things that will never be allowed here in the US are still very much alive in DR...

You can sit there and type name of every top ranking executive of colour in DR, that fact still remains that is still a very small percentage... And if you interviewed any of them, I am pretty sure also that a lot of them will say that they were not completely free of the trials and tribulations that people of colour face in DR...

I will give two of a few examples of how the dominant social group which most consist of light skin or white Dominicans dictate how the rest of DR lives:

1. Women with what some DR people refer to as "pelo malo" are slaves of having to go to the Salon to make their hair stick straight. Why? Because they are blinded into thinking that embracing their natural hair (curly, coarse hair) is not the way to go... that they must emulate the European side of our heritage instead to be more acceptable and negate the African roots that run deep in our blood...

2. Dominicans that are under the impression that being Spanish or Latino Americano is an actual race... This is the funniest one to me... "No I am not black, I am Spanish, or Dominican"... I haven't touched up on our history lately... but if my memory serves me right... When slavery of Africans into the Americas was abolished they were still being brought to the caribbean specially into Quisqueya... That frame of thought right there is the most damaging to me, because it shows that a lot of us are very ashamed of our roots and who we really are... Why? Because the dominant sociological group in DR is light skin, or white... and is of middle class or higher... and the 70%+ of our population that happens to be black or a mix of is driven to shame by the smaller percentage that holds most power in DR...

I could continue to write a book about the atrocities that I heard yesterday but I am tired of typing now... I will back later... LOL

Click to expand...

Hola Indy,

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Especially because you are a DOMINICAN, who now lives in the USA, but visits and has many close family members and friends presently living on the island who are you mention are from a higher 'class' and are well connected...
We are having this VERY discussion over in the 'debates section' and since you are Dominican woman I would love for you to read it and share some of your views and some of things you have heard from your family and friends presently living in the DR...... but be warned your opinion may not be given much weight by 1 poster lol
If you are new to the board you will understand what I mean soon enough.

Here is the link (it started when Nals brought in the controversal and offence link relating IQ to the problems that plague Haiti in post # 58 on PAGE 6 in that thread) :
http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/92380-commonwealth-haiti-territory-usa-6.html

Your view point when you have time would be a great addition to the debate.

Thandie

indy2273 said:

What did I start? LOL

1. Women with what some DR people refer to as "pelo malo" are slaves of having to go to the Salon to make their hair stick straight. Why? Because they are blinded into thinking that embracing their natural hair (curly, coarse hair) is not the way to go... that they must emulate the European side of our heritage instead to be more acceptable and negate the African roots that run deep in our blood...

Click to expand...

Here we go again, why is that people that don't live here wants to judge us on what's good and what's bad. People this not the USA, blacks here weren't exploited neither segragated, in fact I just came from the Technology Day that the IT NOW magazine oirganized in the Jaragua Hotel where every manager of the IT department of the biggest companies here attended, and most of them (like 60%) were black, and I am talking about IT Directors here, CIO and Security Departments Manager of the biggest banks and companies in Santo Domingo.

By the way the IT Day was a success and I believe it should have get coverage in DR1 but that is for another thread.

ExtremeR said:

Here we go again, why is that people that don't live here wants to judge us on what's good and what's bad.

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Maybe you missed it but she is a Dominican born in the DR and lived there, has family still living there...but lives in the USA now

Thandie said:

Maybe you missed it but she is a Dominican born in the DR and lived there, has family still living there...but lives in the USA now

Click to expand...

She have 26 years living abroad, she is extremely disconnected to the DR reality right now even if she acknowledged it or not.

bob saunders said:

The leader of the DR Leonel Fernandez is not white, so it is obvious that citizens that are not white can aspire to and achieve the highest office in the country. Does mean there is no racism in the DR, NO, but in means there is less than many think.

Click to expand...

And his hair is as 'malo' as it gets too. :cheeky:

I'm pretty much done talking about this subject. Much has been said, no need to add more. People can use the search button or feature and READ.

Here are images of a few members of the 'exclusively' white Dominican elite:













Wow, everyone is white and with good hair, indistinguishable from the Swedish upper class. :cheeky:

Even in the corporate world this racism prevails. How dare they do this, especially Grupo Le?n Jimenes, rated as the best company to work for in the Dominican Republic and one of the largest companies in the Caribbean:



Ough! This racism must end! It looks like 1960s USA! :cheeky:

Good night folks. After a while this gets a little redundant and tiresome.

-NALs :tired:

Thandie said:

Hola Indy,

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Especially because you are a DOMINICAN, who now lives in the USA, but visits and has many close family members and friends presently living on the island who are you mention are from a higher 'class' and are well connected...
We are having this VERY discussion over in the 'debates section' and since you are Dominican woman I would love for you to read it and share some of your views and some of things you have heard from your family and friends presently living in the DR...... but be warned your opinion may not be given much weight by 1 poster lol
If you are new to the board you will understand what I mean soon enough.

Here is the link (it started when Nals brought in the controversal and offence link relating IQ to the problems that plague Haiti in post # 58 on PAGE 6 in that thread) :
http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/92380-commonwealth-haiti-territory-usa-6.html

Your view point when you have time would be a great addition to the debate.

Thandie

Click to expand...

Thank you Thandie for pointing out what looks to me sheer ignorance... I was actually going to entertain some of the Nals post and actually reply but I will not bother... my years away from DR has tought me to have NO tolerance for ignorance... so I will not entertain him... He can't fool me with his big words, higher education long schpills, data and stats... That statement alone shows that he is nothing but an educated ignorant fool... The Domnican IQ average went down 2 points from that alone... LOL... and he can post away pictures of Leonel and his staff all he wants... My experience tells me that those that go to extremes to prove their point (pics, stats, data, IQs, etc) are just trying really hard to mask the truths... Look at the pictures... just look at the pictures... amongst all those white, light skin folks, you find maybe one or two dark skin individual...

Leonel es un hombre color canela... That is far away from the complexion of... hmmm let say... Jose Francisco Pena Gomez...

Anyways, simply because I haven't lived in my native country for the past 26 years does not mean I am not aware of what goes on and the prejudices that still thrive...

You know what, now that I think about it... a perfect example... Miss Republica Dominicana... the most beautiful woman in our country picked by our country to go represent us as a nation in Miss Universe, Miss World, etc... Hand picked by us en un certamen... The epidamy of what we consider to be Dominican beauty....

Post those pictures Nals... From 1962 until now... Post the pictures of the women that we Dominican consider to be beautiful... See how many of those are women of colour or dark skin...

I will sit and wait.... and WILL NOT hold my breath... LOL

Know of companies that don?t hire the darker colored people even if they were better qualified than the lighter skinned ones.These companies are most often family run businesses. Racism is still the case here in the DR!!!

"Women with what some DR people refer to as "pelo malo" are slaves of having to go to the Salon to make their hair stick straight. Why? Because they are blinded into thinking that embracing their natural hair (curly, coarse hair) is not the way to go... that they must emulate the European side of our heritage instead to be more acceptable and negate the African roots that run deep in our blood..."

Since you'ved lived in the US for so long why are you surprised at the Dominican woman's enslavement to the hair salon? Have you not seen Tyra Banks, Beyonce' etc.? When was the last time they wore an "Afro"? Beyonce's Afro in Austin Powers as Foxy Cleopatra doesn't count. It's not just Dominicans who straighten their hair, many with "deeper" African roots do it(did it)regularly...James Brown(Godfather of Soul), Michael Jackson(King of Pop), Little Richard...etc. My cell phone just rang, my wife is at the hair salon!!! I have to bitch slap her for negating her roots! Do you see how silly this thread is? My daughter, who lives on a different continent, is pestered often by people who want to touch her soft and wavy hair...she's thinking of straightening it just to stop the madnes. Her two-year-old daughter gets it worse because she has...BLUE eyes!!!

If I have time I might address your intolerance for ignorance later. Check your previous posts, the clues are there.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm Dominican, lived there pre and post Trujillo, have visited enough to see how things have changed(and stayed the same) and have an extremely large extended family there and in the states, and have no statistics, charts, pictures(to support my opinions) and contacts in the goverment or major businesses in the DR with the exception of a major street named after a relative in Mao, and another owning a large Auto dealeship in Santo Domingo. I think that covers most of it.

2dlight said:

Since you'ved lived in the US for so long why are you surprised at the Dominican woman's enslavement to the hair salon? Have you not seen Tyra Banks, Beyonce' etc.? When was the last time they wore an "Afro"? Beyonce's Afro in Austin Powers as Foxy Cleopatra doesn't count. It's not just Dominicans who straighten their hair, many with "deeper" African roots do it(did it)regularly...James Brown(Godfather of Soul), Michael Jackson(King of Pop), Little Richard...etc. My cell phone just rang, my wife is at the hair salon!!! I have to bitch slap her for negating her roots! Do you see how silly this thread is?

Click to expand...

2Delight, I just wanted to respond to your post, as someone in the hair industry and having worked with celebrities.
Is there still self loathing in the black American community? Of course there is and no denying that, as Micheal Jackson is a prime example.

(Thankfully there is a growing awareness and movement towards more natural hairstyles in the black American etc. community. Working in the industry I stopped chemically straightening my hair many years ago after seeing and hearing about so many young women with brain cancers. One of the main ingredients in these chemical hair straighteners is LYE. Yes what you use in furniture varnish/paint stripping...but that is a conversation for another day!)

Tyra, Beyonce, MJ, Little Richard all presently wear wigs.
But Tyra and Beyonce have maybe not recently worn afros but that is not the only afrocentric hairstyle. Both women have frequently worn braids.

But that is neither here nor there...celebrities in the public eye are not the typical everyday people, anyways.

To me, at least, and what I took from the OP post was, straigtening your hair does not automatically mean you want to be more European. That would be silly (Japenese hair straightening is VERY popular amongst Asian women and they are known for generally have pretty straight hair as it is.).

The issue is for those women who have more kinky or coarse hair, how 'negatively' they are viewed or treated if they leave thier hair in a more natural state/less European state...and the pressure they experience to conform to what is more accepted.
i.e. told it looks ugly and their hair is bad because it is too African/black looking, probably will not be hired for good jobs.

coarse hair, African facial features, dark black skin= ugly, bad and inferior...
that is ignorant.
As long as your hair is neat and clean and styled, why does the fact that someones NATURAL texture of their hair is coarse mean anything and why should that be held against them?
As another poster once said....No hair is bad, except no hair on a cold Maine day lol.

Thandie said:

kinky or coarse hair, .

Click to expand...

I have kinky hair on my head. Is that why I always have sex on my mind?

I don't know what it's like on the island, but I know someone who grew up in La Vega and did not come to the US until she was an adult with children.

She considers anyone with dark skin ugly(feo/fea). She has made that statement about her own daughters right in front of them, though I presume it may have been to get me to state my opinion on their looks.

She has commented on my DR novias and has openly and unashamedly asked me why I like ugly women(meaning dark-skinned, trige?a) when there are so many pretty ones(light-skinned) in the DR.

She has also said that if I want my children to come out "lavao"(washed, clean; i.e. a euphemism for light-skinned) that I shouldn't marry "una mona"(a monkey). The casualness of her comments makes me think that she feels very comfortable with these opinions, almost as a matter of unspoken fact.

I have no idea whether she picked up these ingrained prejudices here in the states but I highly doubt it, seeing as she lives in an almost exclusively Dominican world-all her friends and associates are Dominican and she gets by without having to speak a lick of english to anyone.

I conjecture that someone who lives such a culturally cloistered life came here to the US with those beliefs already ingrained.

I'm not arguing with NALs or anyone else about this, just pointing out that it is ridiculous to think that some Dominicans do not make judgments based on skin color(as opposed to class). What would make them so special that they are free of this particular prejudice?

Despite the success of darker skinned Dominicans on the island, it is the Dominicans' opinion on standards of beauty that will speak more about their preferences and prejudices for and against a particular skin color.

It may not be so severe that the classes are divided unequivocally by skin color, but it does exist to a certain extent in some portions of society when it comes to considering beauty and desirable traits for ones' offspring. Not everywhere and not with everyone, but it does exist.

I think this subtle but profound difference is where people are getting confused, and I highly doubt a person with white skin and "pelo bueno" (another casually used term that has disturbing connotations) can have the last and final word on the complexities of this issue.

It is very difficult to walk around in someone elses' skin to be able to determine what a dark-skinned persons' life is like, whether in the DR or anywhere else in the world.

I have always asked my novias why they would prefer having a child with me(forgetting for a minute that I'm American), and all have said the same thing, and these have been chicas from El Ceibo to Cabarete to Santo Domingo-if the child comes out with light skin and green eyes, he/she will have more opportunities in life. This was based on their ideal physical traits for success in life, and I in no way guided their responses. I let them speak freely.

Like I stated, I'm not denying the success dark-skinned Dominicans enjoy in the DR. But to state that all Dominicans are outright color-blind, that for some reason despite their backwardness in so many other areas they have achieved such an advanced state of enlightenment when it comes to skin color is absolutely ludicrous and makes no sense whatsoever.

This does not mean that there exists the level of racism in the DR that we have here in the US(and let me tell you, the most racist individuals I have ever met have been blacks and latinos against ANYONE they considered white, even if the person in question was a member of a so-called minority group) but it does not mean Dominicans are as color blind as some have suggested.

All it means is that it is not as virulent in comparison, and that dark-skinned Dominicans are not shackled by American blacks and latinos' obsession with race.

Thank goodness for that.

With this response I hope I have made my points clear and that I'm not at all trying to generalize about every single Dominican and how they feel about this issue.

Hopefully anyone reading this post will see that I'm speaking of subtleties and not absolutes, and certainly not labeling ALL Dominicans to be one way or another.

Thandie,

I replied to the OP because my one and only sister has been working on hair for 30 years in Los Angeles(Billy Dee Williams, Diana Ross) and I think I have a superficial understanding about the pressures that drive someone to change their hair's original structural and visible nature. As my journey into the less-hair everywhere journey progresses, I find the importance of it(hair) less meaningful and so I participate in this thread with amusement but not with indifference. My concern was with the "emulate" or "negate" part of the OP's post.

Berzin,

I'm going out on a limb here. The person you speak of, picked up those prejudices right there in the motherland. The expressions such as "pelo bueno", "pelo malo", "piel canela", "Indio", "mejorando la raza","mono,mona" are part of the Dominican vernacular. It is not taboo for Dominicans to speak about color...it is a reality...it is what it is.