Bilingualism- Article from the Montreal Gazette, July 9, 2009

Marianopolita · Jul 10, 2009

Here is a brief but interesting article about bilingualism posted in yesterday?s Montreal Gazette (BTW- this is a long standing and the only English newspaper in Quebec, a French-speaking province).

For those of you from Montreal or who live in Montreal we know it. Bilingualism and/ or trilingualism are the norm around here. Some of us from day one have been speaking two or three languages without even thinking twice about it (no pun intended). Our environment demands bilingualism (at least in the city of Montreal) plus most of have us have a heritage language which makes a considerable number of the population of Montrealers trilingual. I once read a statistic that Montreal is the largest trilingual city in the world. And a recent article also in the Gazette posted a few days ago reveals that Montreal has more allophones than francophone speakers which is a concern for the French language 'watchers' because the numbers of French speakers has actually decreased since the beginning of the decade. Therefore, once again the language pot has begun to stir in the province. There has been an article about language in the Gazette every week for the past few weeks.

For those who question bilingualism, its pros and cons at an early age, this may help frame your thought a bit about the ability of a bilingual vs. a unilingual child and their skills to learn and speak a language. In general, Canada is a pro multilingualism country. In its two largest cities Toronto and Montreal respectively, you will hear an array of languages on a daily basis. I also tell people who visit for the first time 'if you have not heard xxx language in TO and MTL you will not hear it'. Yes, these two cities are that diverse. In Montreal a part from the French and English bilingualism, Arabic and Spanish are two very strong languages. Haitian creole as well cannot be overlooked since Montreal has the third largest Haitian-speaking population outside of Haiti. Toronto does not have as many French speakers; actually a very small population but Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Mandarin and various Indian languages equally compete and are heard daily in the city.

Here is the article: Bilingual kids are more efficient learners: study

Here are some Canadian linguistic definitions that are worthy to note from the Canadian bilingualism dictionary and other sources:

1/ allophone: In Canada, allophone means a person whose first language is neither of Canada's official languages of English and French.

2/ Mother tongue: Definition: Mother tongue is the first language a person learns to speak. ...

-just to add to this if a child learns Spanish in the home first, that?s considered their mother tongue even if s/he was born in Montreal, Toronto etc. in other words Canada. This issue comes up when deciding what school your child will attend etc. However, children of immigrants in Montreal go to French school. That?s the standard.

3/ Francophone: Definition: In general in Canada the word francophone means a French-speaking person. ...

canadian bilingualism glossary - About.com : Canada Online

4/ bilingualism: 1/ the ability to speak two languages 2/ the frequent use (as by a community) of two languages 3/ the political or institutional recognition of two languages

source: Merriam Webster dictionary

-Marianopolita

suarezn · Jul 10, 2009

I just visited Montreal last weekend for the first time in my life and while I was expecting to find many people unable or unwilling to speak English I didn't find one lace where they didn't speak both languages and many places with Spanish as well.

I couldn't see why anyone would argue against multilingualism except for those case of people where they are afraid of seeing their own language disappear. Even then it is obvious that there are plenty of benefits of speaking more than one language.

? bient?t · Jul 10, 2009

I'm on my sixth language: I gave up on the other five.

Alyonka · Jul 10, 2009

It is a very interesting article. Thanks! I used to work for an organization where most people spoke at least 2-3 languages fluently. I don't find anything unusual about it. I tried learning language of each office I worked in, so that I understand what people around me are talking about, and eventually it became too much.

A lot of people from Western Europe speak at least German, English and French. Once you learn one foreign language - it becomes much easier to figure out another one. Most languages are related. Just like beats and patterns in music.

El_Uruguayo · Jul 10, 2009

Bilingualism is great, except when it is wrongly set as a prequesite for a job, where really the 2nd language is not needed that much. Ok, I am a little bias, I'm waiting for french language testing results for a government job in Canada. In fact I do speak 4, but written is a different story. My english, spanish, even italian are all fine, but french, that is one that needs maintenance, you can't drop it for a few years and pick it up again and expect to be a decent writer.

Marianopolita · Jul 10, 2009

Knowing more than one language= opportunity and advantages

suarezn said:
I just visited Montreal last weekend for the first time in my life and while I was expecting to find many people unable or unwilling to speak English I didn't find one lace where they didn't speak both languages and many places with Spanish as well.

I couldn't see why anyone would argue against multilingualism except for those case of people where they are afraid of seeing their own language disappear. Even then it is obvious that there are plenty of benefits of speaking more than one language.

I am glad English was not an issue for you in Montreal. In general, it's not a problem especially in professional establishments but I have heard stories and seen situations where people refused to speak English and when that happens I usually offer help in English or Spanish whatever language is in question. I think that it's bad for tourism if a foreigner only speaks English and then runs into the 'no English' mentality. That's usually in the suburbs and believe me Quebec City is a different story. Don't expect any bilingualism there. It's French all the way.

Apart from that Montreal is quite the cosmopolitan city with a great history and foreigners especially Europeans knew Montreal long before Toronto became an icon city. They are both cosmopolitan, multicultural and multilingual. However, very different but a lot to offer. Spanish is a good language to speak in both and I think it will only be fortified in years to come.

Two great cities IMO. Celebrate bilingualism in Montreal.

Alyonka said:
It is a very interesting article. Thanks! I used to work for an organization where most people spoke at least 2-3 languages fluently. I don't find anything unusual about it. I tried learning language of each office I worked in, so that I understand what people around me are talking about, and eventually it became too much.

A lot of people from Western Europe speak at least German, English and French. Once you learn one foreign language - it becomes much easier to figure out another one. Most languages are related. Just like beats and patterns in music.

I agree with you about speaking 2-3 languages being very normal. Europeans are prime examples and I think Canada as well is a country that can be included in the mix. The openness to foreign languages is evident and many people speak at least two languages. Nothing strange about this concept in Montreal and Toronto. I think a minimum of two is good for your brain. Trying to learn too many and not mastering them defeats the purpose IMO.

El_Uruguayo said:
Bilingualism is great, except when it is wrongly set as a prequesite for a job, where really the 2nd language is not needed that much. Ok, I am a little bias, I'm waiting for french language testing results for a government job in Canada. In fact I do speak 4, but written is a different story. My english, spanish, even italian are all fine, but french, that is one that needs maintenance, you can't drop it for a few years and pick it up again and expect to be a decent writer.

You are in Ottawa if I recall and you will not get away from the English/ French bilingualism there. It's just like being in Montreal. Ottawa is a true bilingual city in my opinion. Not only because it's the capital of Canada, it's so close to Gatineau and surrounding area and many Montrealers live there so French is really a necessity in my opinion. Maybe to a lesser degree in some jobs but it's necessary.

Speaking and writing a language are two totally different concepts. You will hear many bilingual speakers say, 'I can speak Italian but I can't write it or I speak Spanish but I can't write it'. That's because writing requires sound knowledge of spelling, grammar and grammar control and one's errors are evident and easily noticeable in writing. Even the person who tries to write and cannot senses their own inability. In general, speaking requires quick communication to get your point across and people in general are not focusing on grammatical errors although they are evident. Writing requires studying the language and depending on one's bilingual environment they may not have had the opportunity to study the language or are simply not interested in learning.

-Marianopolita.

pedrochemical · Jul 10, 2009

I have a young daughter (3 months) who is spoken to by me in English, by her mother in Creole, she hears me and her mum communicate in French and she lives around Spanish speaking people.
Is this going to be a problem?
At the moment she seems to think,"goog eegy ooog gooooble ggggeeee!"
I figured out that this means "I am going to vomit on your new shirt just as you leave for work." But I am not sure which language it was.

Seriously though, have people had experience of multiple languages in the home whilst growing up and can this cause comprehension / confidence problems?
I know everybody manages to learn to talk eventually, but could this retard her educational development at a critical stage while she is figuring out that she speaks 4 languages?

How do expats with kids deal with this?

? bient?t · Jul 10, 2009

Marianopolita said:
I agree with you about speaking 2-3 languages being very normal. Europeans are prime examples and I think Canada as well is a country that can be included in the mix. The openness to foreign languages is evident and many people speak at least two languages. Nothing strange about this concept in Montreal and Toronto. I think a minimum of two is good for your brain. Trying to learn too many and not mastering them defeats the purpose IMO.

-Marianopolita.

OK, I get it.

Two languages: bilingual
Three languages: trilingual
And ONE language? American

But seriously now: I've read somewhere that being truly bilingual means you also dream in both languages. I dream in jerga occasionally.

La Mariposa · Jul 11, 2009

Marianopolita said:
I am glad English was not an issue for you in Montreal. In general, it's not a problem especially in professional establishments but I have heard stories and seen situations where people refused to speak English and when that happens I usually offer help in English or Spanish whatever language is in question. I think that it's bad for tourism if a foreigner only speaks English and then runs into the 'no English' mentality. That's usually in the suburbs and believe me Quebec City is a different story. Don't expect any bilingualism there. It's French all the way.

Apart from that Montreal is quite the cosmopolitan city with a great history and foreigners especially Europeans knew Montreal long before Toronto became an icon city. They are both cosmopolitan, multicultural and multilingual. However, very different but a lot to offer. Spanish is a good language to speak in both and I think it will only be fortified in years to come.

Two great cities IMO. Celebrate bilingualism in Montreal.

I agree with you about speaking 2-3 languages being very normal. Europeans are prime examples and I think Canada as well is a country that can be included in the mix. The openness to foreign languages is evident and many people speak at least two languages. Nothing strange about this concept in Montreal and Toronto. I think a minimum of two is good for your brain. Trying to learn too many and not mastering them defeats the purpose IMO.

You are in Ottawa if I recall and you will not get away from the English/ French bilingualism there. It's just like being in Montreal. Ottawa is a true bilingual city in my opinion. Not only because it's the capital of Canada, it's so close to Gatineau and surrounding area and many Montrealers live there so French is really a necessity in my opinion. Maybe to a lesser degree in some jobs but it's necessary.

Speaking and writing a language are two totally different concepts. You will hear many bilingual speakers say, 'I can speak Italian but I can't write it or I speak Spanish but I can't write it'. That's because writing requires sound knowledge of spelling, grammar and grammar control and one's errors are evident and easily noticeable in writing. Even the person who tries to write and cannot senses their own inability. In general, speaking requires quick communication to get your point across and people in general are not focusing on grammatical errors although they are evident. Writing requires studying the language and depending on one's bilingual environment they may not have had the opportunity to study the language or are simply not interested in learning.

-Marianopolita.

I am from Qu?bec City, borned and raised there and now living in Montr?al.
In Qu?bec City, restaurants, tiendas, colmados, shopping centers..., you will be served in English even if they are not fluent in English. In Montr?al !!! if they decide not to speak English (even if they are fluent), well The Hell with you they won't speak English.

Marianopolita · Jul 11, 2009

Some feedback-

pedrochemical said:
...Seriously though, have people had experience of multiple languages in the home whilst growing up and can this cause comprehension / confidence problems?
I know everybody manages to learn to talk eventually, but could this retard her educational development at a critical stage while she is figuring out that she speaks 4 languages?

How do expats with kids deal with this?

This was previously discussed in a thread earlier this year.

http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/89667-you-teaching-your-kids-spanish.html

? bient?t said:
...
But seriously now: I've read somewhere that being truly bilingual means you also dream in both languages. I dream in jerga occasionally.

Yes, I heard the same thing and I believe it's true via my own experiences. The brain has a tremendous ability to compartmentalize.

La Mariposa said:
I am from Qu?bec City, borned and raised there and now living in Montr?al.
In Qu?bec City, restaurants, tiendas, colmados, shopping centers..., you will be served in English even if they are not fluent in English. In Montr?al !!! if they decide not to speak English (even if they are fluent), well The Hell with you they won't speak English.

I know you are from Quebec City. You may want to review PMs we have exchanged in the past. I think you missed the point I was emphasizing or maybe I was not clear. My reference to Quebec City is in comparison and that it is not as bilingual as Montreal. It does not mean English will not be heard at all. French is certainly predominant there. I have heard good and bad experiences from tourists who have been to both cities. These are not my personal experiences as a Montrealer but it does not impede me from making keen observations.

However, please let's remain focused on bilingualism and its benefits to learning as per the article.

-Marianopolita.

Chirimoya · Jul 11, 2009

pedrochemical said:
I have a young daughter (3 months) who is spoken to by me in English, by her mother in Creole, she hears me and her mum communicate in French and she lives around Spanish speaking people.
Is this going to be a problem?
At the moment she seems to think,"goog eegy ooog gooooble ggggeeee!"
I figured out that this means "I am going to vomit on your new shirt just as you leave for work." But I am not sure which language it was.

Seriously though, have people had experience of multiple languages in the home whilst growing up and can this cause comprehension / confidence problems?
I know everybody manages to learn to talk eventually, but could this retard her educational development at a critical stage while she is figuring out that she speaks 4 languages?

How do expats with kids deal with this?

I suggest you get hold of some books on raising a multilingual child, which will have some tips on how to handle this. Even though she is only three months old now is a good time to start establishing habits, the key thing being consistency.

With bilingual kids the usual rule is to keep to OPOL (one parent - one language) and if the language of the external environment is the same as the primary carer (in most cases the mother's) language this will have the advantage. In our case the scales are more balanced as I speak to him in English but the external environment is the same as his father's language, Spanish, and as a result he is 100% bi-lingual.

It gets a little more complex with more than two languages and it is true that sometimes there may be some delay in speech development as a result, but it usually all comes together spectacularly in the end.

Good luck!

Marianopolita · Jul 11, 2009

Consistency is key not so much as the number of languages...

pedrochemical,

I would like to reiterate consistency as per Chiri's post because I think people don't realize how that plays a key role in multilanguage learning. And as a result of consistency the child's language learning will be balanced. It's really not worth it to focus on how the child is understanding each language, her brain is doing that by compartmentalizing and eventually she will associate 'face and language'.

The young age is perfect and believe it or not your daughter already knows many words in English, Creole, Spanish and French. Since these are four languages, it is a lot and if there is not a balanced amount of speaking or interaction in all four that will be evident when she starts to speak, the two more dominant will prevail not to say she will not comprehend the other two. Yes, she may take a little longer to speak than the unilingual child but it's so minor in terms of the outcome when your daughter starts to speak. It's potentially four to one.

In brief, a friend of mine son is six years old and speaks four languages- Spanish, Malay, English and French. This is not just what she says I have met the young lad, spent the day with him recently and spoke to him in three languages regularly throughout the day and the boy did not flaw. His Mom, my friend is Mexican and her husband is from Malaysia, therefore they each speak to him their respective language, Spanish and Malay. English they figured he would learn from outside interaction, babysitters etc. and living in an English environment and two years ago they decided he would go to French immersion school. He just completed is second school year and I was impressed. When I came over he came down stairs and introduced himself in English. This six year old was not shy. Then his Mom said "ella habla espa?ol" and then right way he said 'oh, qu? bueno' and he switched to Spanish right away. Later on, I decided I would test him a bit so I started speaking to him in French. The lad responded in French as if nothing changed and we just continued our conversation in French. Later on when it was time to help him with his French homework, which was already done but his Mom asked me if I could review it because he had to write six mini compositions, I spoke to him in English. The lad responded word for word no problem in English and his French homework was grammatically flawless. He just struggled a bit with spelling of words because still does not have the phonetics down pat.

It was quite an impressive experience with the young child. I noticed his French accent is quite heavy (very English sounding) but I think it will level off overtime and since he's young and it's the last fluent language he's learning in a short period time. I found it interesting that he complimented me-he said 'he likes the way I speak English, French and Spanish and that notably in French I sound Montrealaise' (because his teacher is also from Quebec whereas his Mom who also speaks French, lived in Switzerland for many years and therefore noticed the differences). He's has a good ear for languages, not doubt a natural gift. I think your daughter will be fine.

For an adult multilingual speaker the key in my opinion and experience is balance. Read, write and speak in all languages on a regular basis. Immerse yourself in multilingual environments as much as possible.

-Marianopolita.

mountainannie · Jul 11, 2009

Whereas here on this Island I get very sloppy with my adult friends who are French, since French is my second language, English their third. After the first bottle of wine we speak a language which could perhaps be called FRANISH?

pedrochemical · Jul 11, 2009

-Marianopolita, Chiri,
Thanks for that.
I had heard the same thing, that one person, one language helps - consistency being the key.
My mum is a learning difficulties specialist in the UK so I have talked to her about this, but she has no experience of multilingual kids.
I guess every parent worries that the choices that they make impact on their kids, but I think in the long run speaking and understanding multiple languages will only be an advantage.
We shall see.

Alyonka · Jul 11, 2009

One language teacher told me that it is better for a child to have a "main" language he/she would consider "native" to sort of get established until they are 4 or 5 years old. But afterwards - any language environment they are in - they can learn a new language quickly. I worked with a girl from Europe who spoke 5 languages well. She grew up in an area bordering several countries and had relatives from all over the world. French was her "main", but her English, German, Dutch and Spanish were very good.

GOLFGUY · Jul 11, 2009

English in Montreal

I have had to travel to Montreal these last 2 months, and have found this language thing is given waaaaay too much importance. I speak spanish and a little french; I do this out of necessity for my business. I speak spanish in SD out of respect to the country in which I am a guest. I guess I could speak english if I wanted to prove a point, but I am a guest in this country and treat my hosts with respect (and they have always been respectful to me). However, when I was in Montreal, the language thing always felt confrontational, like it mattered if I said "bonjour" instead of "good morning". Like they were using language in a way to somehow assert their cultural "superiority" (euro-centric). More likely to compensate for some deep-rooted inferiority complex. I found myself speaking in english out of protest. I had only felt like this once before, in Paris, ordering a small $7 soda at a Paris sidewalk cafe from a snickering french waiter.

Chirimoya · Jul 11, 2009

Reminds me of my first visit to Barcelona in 1983 when people were still relishing the freedom to speak Catalan which had been suppressed under Franco - even though it was clear that Spanish was not my first language people in banks, restaurants, train station, streets, etc almost always replied in Catalan. On subsequent visits it appeared that they had got it out of their system and were fine about speaking Spanish to visitors.

mountainannie · Jul 11, 2009

completely off topic but I just heard this last night from someone who was born in Spain- how far is Catalan from Spanish? Could you understand one from the other?Completely different vocabulary and grammar? Like Welsh to English?

Chip · Jul 11, 2009

pedrochemical said:
I have a young daughter (3 months) who is spoken to by me in English, by her mother in Creole, she hears me and her mum communicate in French and she lives around Spanish speaking people.
Is this going to be a problem?
At the moment she seems to think,"goog eegy ooog gooooble ggggeeee!"
I figured out that this means "I am going to vomit on your new shirt just as you leave for work." But I am not sure which language it was.

Seriously though, have people had experience of multiple languages in the home whilst growing up and can this cause comprehension / confidence problems?
I know everybody manages to learn to talk eventually, but could this retard her educational development at a critical stage while she is figuring out that she speaks 4 languages?

How do expats with kids deal with this?

Our oldest daughter had a very difficult time learning English and Spanish when we lived in Florida. In fact, she was classified with a learning disability and placed in special classes. I ask the psycholgist if there was a problem because I spoke to her in English and her mother in Spanish and they assured me no. However, I had my doubts and still do. Nonetheless, we are here in the DR and we only speak Spanish and our daughter finally learned how to read and write this last year in second grade and in a couple of years after her Spanish is really solid I will put her in an institute to learn English.

Chip · Jul 11, 2009

GOLFGUY said:
I have had to travel to Montreal these last 2 months, and have found this language thing is given waaaaay too much importance. I speak spanish and a little french; I do this out of necessity for my business. I speak spanish in SD out of respect to the country in which I am a guest. I guess I could speak english if I wanted to prove a point, but I am a guest in this country and treat my hosts with respect (and they have always been respectful to me). However, when I was in Montreal, the language thing always felt confrontational, like it mattered if I said "bonjour" instead of "good morning". Like they were using language in a way to somehow assert their cultural "superiority" (euro-centric). More likely to compensate for some deep-rooted inferiority complex. I found myself speaking in english out of protest. I had only felt like this once before, in Paris, ordering a small $7 soda at a Paris sidewalk cafe from a snickering french waiter.

With different languages spoken in an area there is going to be friction naturally because of the purists. From a foreign point of view, it seems to me that there are still substantail unresolved difference between the French and English communities, what with talk of secession every now and then.

Honestly, in my experience it's the people who don't have a good command of a second language that make up most of the purists, my observations are possibly a little slanted though.

Bilingualism- Article from the Montreal Gazette, July 9, 2009

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