Of nails and snails and pupy dog tails...

Hillbilly

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Jan 1, 2002
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I was thinking about corruption. It seems to be everywhere. The recent death of Miguel Cocco the head of Customs brought about crocodile tears and tales of how strict he was. Well, the guy was a old Communist, of the hard line variety, but he was just as "honest" as the Russian Communist leaders were...or the Chinese are (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/world/africa/22namibia.html?th&emc=th)

People forget (unless you are a fan of Harold's political cartoons in Diario Libre) that the main body of PLD leaders were formed, politically, as marxists-leninists, in those little "reader circles" where they were indoctrinated with dialectic philosophy (up to a point) and Bosch's idea of society. I have wondered about the assassination attempt last week of Cocco's right hand man, and I have come to this conclusion: he was on the take --for himself and most probably for his boss, too--and had received some heavy money to "do a job" that would net someone a lot of money, but the death of Cocco and his sudden dismissal thereafter (amid oh so many phrases of his fine work) might have put the whole thing on hold. Thus the gunfire.

In this country we are going to see, tomorrow, the President, face the media directors over lunch at the Presidential Palace, where he will try to explain away the growing tide of sentiment regarding the oh-so-obvious corruption in government (the CB payrolls, Sun Land, INDRHI, CDEEE, PRA, etc etc) and the government's inability to pay its bills and the resulting blackouts.

He will use all of his Doctorate in Spin (Spin doctor, get it???) and dialectical philosophy to put a favorable light on things...but "le change, plus le change, c'est le meme chose,,,"

Some of the media will receive the President's words as if they were Manna from on High. Others will dismiss them and others will smirk and say, "Yeah, right, whatever."

Wake me up in twenty years and tell me if anything has changed in the 7th PLD administration...

HB
 

El Tigre

El Tigre de DR1 - Moderator
Jan 23, 2003
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HB,

I feel and share your thoughts! I agree...nothing will change. It won't change because this is what most Dominicans know. How to get richer while the poor get poorer. But, what can we expect from a nation that was built on corruption?
 

Danny W

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HB - I asked the last time around (your Obama Africa speech thread), and I'm asking again - is there a potential candidate or group that could conceivably make a difference? -D
 

El Tigre

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HB - I asked the last time around (your Obama Africa speech thread), and I'm asking again - is there a potential candidate or group that could conceivably make a difference? -D

I know you asked HB but I want to answer as well:

NO.
 

Hillbilly

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funny thing. On yesterday's "Gobierno de la Tarde" radio talk show, one of the more vociferous persons mentioned Eduardo Estrella. But poor Eduardo does nothave a party with enough "umpff" to get him into office.

I realize it is easy to criticize, much harder to offer real solutions. I just had to get that off my chest...

I really wonder: Two persons I know have mentioned real social unrest. (No, not these half-axxed things going on now, REALLY BIG protests), although they did it a couple of years apart...things might be coming to a head, in spite of all the apologists.

Look, there are some good things, like the Central Bank, but these are outweighed by so many corrupt ones. And no accountability. And they publish stuff that really makes you wonder, but nobody questions what is published, after all it could be a mistake..like that one about spending $5.0 million pesos A METER to repair the highway in La Cumbre??? Not even gold re-bar costs that much...

HB
 

caribmike

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The big problem is, when the PLD is in power, the white party members are ranting and lamenting, why?

Not because the PLD is governing, no, because they don't like them PLD members to have all the government jobs.

Is the other party leading, the PLD members do the same...

NOBODY of them cares for the country, they all care for their own advantages, that is what it is about!

Corrupt and it will never change...
 

mountainannie

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Thanks for this. I have been talking with some of the people who are involved in Los Haitieses who were also involved in the abortion protest and speculating about why they were not more enraged about the corruption - because at that, really, they just sort of say, well, THAT will never change. I did not really know that Bosch was really Marxist-Leninist, there was so much denial over that.

But I do wonder about the new focus internationally on corruption within lending institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank with indexes such as Transparency International-- that more and more pressure is being brought on local governments to clean up their governance to qualify for loans. And that less and less corruption will be tolerated by international investors as transparency indices are published and other countries become more attractive investment opportunities.

I would assume that the Dominican diaspora, many of whom are planning to retire here, will be pushing for a great cleansing of the political process.
 

Danny W

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Thanks for this. I have been talking with some of the people who are involved in Los Haitieses who were also involved in the abortion protest and speculating about why they were not more enraged about the corruption - because at that, really, they just sort of say, well, THAT will never change. I did not really know that Bosch was really Marxist-Leninist, there was so much denial over that.

But I do wonder about the new focus internationally on corruption within lending institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank with indexes such as Transparency International-- that more and more pressure is being brought on local governments to clean up their governance to qualify for loans. And that less and less corruption will be tolerated by international investors as transparency indices are published and other countries become more attractive investment opportunities.

I would assume that the Dominican diaspora, many of whom are planning to retire here, will be pushing for a great cleansing of the political process.

What do you mean by "Dominican diaspora, many of whom..."? Where is "here"? If you mean Dominicans in other countries, I don't get it. If you mean gringos retiring in the DR, yeah, we're scared of the corruption.
Tourism and the prospect of the DR becoming a retirement haven are like a golden egg for the DR, but corruption will kill the goose. - D
 

Chip

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Many Dominicans in the States and elsewhere return to the DR to retire. Most of my neighbors fall into this category. Hopefully they will make their presence felt.
 

mountainannie

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What do you mean by "Dominican diaspora, many of whom..."? Where is "here"? If you mean Dominicans in other countries, I don't get it. If you mean gringos retiring in the DR, yeah, we're scared of the corruption.
Tourism and the prospect of the DR becoming a retirement haven are like a golden egg for the DR, but corruption will kill the goose. - D

I am sorry,,, I live in Santo Domingo. I mean the Dominicans who are living outside the DR and are not used to the corruption and ARE used to having 24/electricity, public services, and a functioning state.

I do think that the DR could become a retirement haven AND a good investment center but it looks like it is going the other way,,, towards instability, or rather a small kleptocracy with cronyism.

Seems that most of the guys just want their millions right now, no matter what the cost to the county.

Too bad.The place did look promising for a couple of years.
 

Lambada

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I really wonder: Two persons I know have mentioned real social unrest. (No, not these half-axxed things going on now, REALLY BIG protests), although they did it a couple of years apart...things might be coming to a head, in spite of all the apologists. HB

Just an observation, but I don't think, organisationally, locals are quite ready yet for real social unrest. The two things lacking, IMHO, are community organisation to a sufficiently sophisticated level and discipline; you have to be incredibly disciplined to pull it off successfully. But........it's on it's way, that's for sure. That's why I watched & am watching the Los Haitises movement with such interest. There are elements there of Paris (France) 1968: coalitions of intellectuals with campesinos, background of high unemployment etc. That particular unrest (Paris) was unsuccessful for the protestors but it had a profound social impact and changed French ideology. And we kind of need that here, too, don't we?
 
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bob saunders

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Just an observation, but I don't think, organisationally, locals are quite ready yet for real social unrest. The two things lacking, IMHO, are community organisation to a sufficiently sophisticated level and discipline; you have to be incredibly disciplined to pull it off successfully. But........it's on it's way, that's for sure. That's why I watched & am watching the Los Haitises movement with such interest. There are elements there of Paris (France) 1968: coalitions of intellectuals with campesinos, background of high unemployment etc. That particular unrest (Paris) was unsuccessful for the protestors but it had a profound social impact and changed French ideology. And we kind of need that here, too, don't we?

What would the results be? Has France changed for the better since 1968?
 

mountainannie

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agreed

Just an observation, but I don't think, organisationally, locals are quite ready yet for real social unrest. The two things lacking, IMHO, are community organisation to a sufficiently sophisticated level and discipline; you have to be incredibly disciplined to pull it off successfully. But........it's on it's way, that's for sure. That's why I watched & am watching the Los Haitises movement with such interest. There are elements there of Paris (France) 1968: coalitions of intellectuals with campesinos, background of high unemployment etc. That particular unrest (Paris) was unsuccessful for the protestors but it had a profound social impact and changed French ideology. And we kind of need that here, too, don't we?

That is what one of the organizers was saying ... this is the first time that she has seen that coalition here. We had the same one in the States in 68 as well.It was born in the universities but it went through the class lines, particularly the working class who were being particularly effected by the draft in Vietnam.

I heard today from a friend that some of the top intellectuals that she knows here in the Capital are beginning to meet to now to discuss political platforms. That is what happened in the States in 66. We started to meet in NYC at a grad student's apartment to work on the peace plank for the Democratic convention of 68..... same thing was happening simulataneously.., spontaneously in Boston, Chicago, and SF... it all ended in LBJ being challenged from inside his own party and not running for another term and then the bloody 68 convention

(This is completely THIRD HAND RUMOUR but GOOD ) The sense was that that there was a deal made over the passage of the Constitution. That the opposing party would pass the Constitution as Leonel wanted, in return for which he and his party would not mount a vigorous campaign for the next election, handing over the country to the PRD, Then Leonel would come back after four years, There was a sense of basta ya! that the country is simply not this private pie that can be divided between these two political groups and there must be a way out of this system of corruption or there will be no hope for a future.

So I believe that the groups are better organized that you think. The women, in particular, are already very used to being very well organized through the abortion network to which any middle class woman here can have secure access within five minutes. I think that Leonel made a strategic error when he made a deal with the Church rather than the women on this issue. Of course, even if the issue passes on the second reading it will be ignored unless there are doctors who are willing to let someone die, which I doubt there are... but it had really really made the women angry. And they were already angry.
 

mountainannie

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jury will always be out

What would the results be? Has France changed for the better since 1968?

the left had a shot at running things so they would say that they were pleased, that was what they wanted... your opinions, are of course, your opinions... but I had friends who wept for joy over it.....

but let us not make this thread PULEEESSEE about OUR left or right politics since we already know where we are on the spectrum , could we, please?
 

Hillbilly

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M.A.: I agree that some things are sort of coming together. There was a large gathering in Santo Domingo to protest the goings on in Gonzalo. The frustration level is getting higher every day with higher electricity, lack of water, worsening highway conditions that many of us experience every day! And they charge tolls!!

When and where is a major unknown...

HB
 

bob saunders

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the left had a shot at running things so they would say that they were pleased, that was what they wanted... your opinions, are of course, your opinions... but I had friends who wept for joy over it.....

but let us not make this thread PULEEESSEE about OUR left or right politics since we already know where we are on the spectrum , could we, please?

No my queston has nothing to do with left or right. Te question still stand : Is France better off today than 1968, and if so, why.
 

mountainannie

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more to the point

No my queston has nothing to do with left or right. Te question still stand : Is France better off today than 1968, and if so, why.

would be could a coalition of citizen's concerned with good governance and eliminating corruption in DR introduce the concept of an independent civil service as exists in the US, Canada, GB, and, yes, I believe, France?
 

Lambada

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We started to meet in NYC at a grad student's apartment to work on the peace plank for the Democratic convention of 68..... same thing was happening simulataneously.., spontaneously in Boston, Chicago, and SF... it all ended in LBJ being challenged from inside his own party and not running for another term and then the bloody 68 convention..........

So I believe that the groups are better organized that you think.

You could be right. I'm certainly convinced that down in SD where you are the level of organisation is vastly better than what I see up here on the north coast. I'm sure there are regional variations. It would be interesting to see how much those are linked to 'Unversity towns' (yes I know we have universities in Puerto Plata, but not of the same level of student and faculty organisation as in SD or Santiago).

Interesting that you cite the late 1960's peace work & social movements in US as having a similar feel to Paris 1968 and can see parallels to coalitions forming here & now in the DR. Maybe those of us who lived through that era as young, participating adults are feeling more optimistic as to what could happen here, based on our own experiences?

bob saunders, there is plenty of material out there to read up on this period in Europe and the US. You could look up how the traditional definition of politics with its focus on state, government and legislation changed to the transformative nature of the use of power through social and other movements. But it's a bit off topic to discuss in detail here in this thread and we don't want to take it off the DR.
 

El Tigre

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Lambada & MountainAnnie:

I hope you are right. I hope that people are beginning to get together that way. The more organized the better. I dream of a better DR **sigh**