Electricity - Everyone should pay !

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
5,808
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No!
Then who should pay?


... perhaps those with Waterfront Property
(So what if it's sewage water)
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... perhaps those living in an All Inclusive Gated Community
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... Perhaps those who appear to be running a Tire Recycling Business
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... Perhaps those living on deluxe streets made of the
Best Biodegradable / Water-soluable material corruption can buy
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... Perhaps those building a New House in a New Development
scraping together every scrap of wood they can find
(I bet they could use some help and NALs to hold it all together)
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Perhaps those that can find a job and work?
So what if they only make about $3,600 a month working 6-7 days a week.
Pay car fare to work and back of about $780 a month.
Buy $50 peso Lunch each day for about $1,500 a month.

That still leaves them $44 pesos a day for the electric bill, breaksfast, dinner, clothing, etc.

But wait!
Now that Santiago has installed the new Left Over / Excess Food containers on the streets
They won't have to buy food, so, hell yes, make them pay the electric bill.

The "Old" versus the "New" Leftover/Excess Food Bins
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Perhaps in this country they should have a
God given right
to that electricity.

They have little else ..........

.... BTW, there is no real shortage in electricity production; its all artificially made by the attitudes of the consumers who think (free) electricity is a God given right.
-NALs


SantiagoDR
I survived the NAL's syndrone - 2009
 

Conchman

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Jul 3, 2002
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Pre-paid meters would be the way to go. The poor should be able to get subsidized pre-paid cards, but of course this would be abused to hell, re-sold on the streets, etc. You steal electricity, you go to jail.

Where there is a will, there is a way....right now...there is no will to solve this problem....Dominican society accepts it,,,there will always be elecricity problems..etc.
 

sylindr

New member
Nov 29, 2007
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all should pay

Awesome post... Fix the wages and job shortages and then deal with the rest!!
 

Black Dog

Bronze
May 29, 2009
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SantiagoDR, I love the post!! IMO I don't see that you can have a "god given right" to something that belongs to someone else but I DO strongly believe that an amount of electricity usage should be made available to people on low incomes and that goverments have an obligation to implement and fund this. I would happily pay towards this via my taxation or some other method. Good post!
 

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
5,808
948
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Thanks!

Thanks to those that have responded so far.

I set out today to take those pictures, so people could see how life is for many in the D.R.

I made this commitment to myself after responses on the thread about the National Blackout.
I wanted people to see some of the things I see in the D.R., no sugar coating, no driving by in an expensive SUV.

Not every Dominican can head to the airport and fly off to some exotic place, be it in the U.S. or somewhere else.

I'm of the opinion from reading others posts that perhaps they have never seen what I have shown in those pictures, even some of the posters who are Dominicans.


Don
 

SteveS

Member
Apr 15, 2008
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New Delhi: It was still dark outside when a spidery man in his underwear answered the knock at the factory door, releasing a wave of heat and gritty smoke from the noisy room behind him.

This, the man was told, was a power raid. The engineers storming past him were here to investigate electricity theft at this basement plastics mill. Please step aside.

The problem is rampant in India, but especially in New Delhi, a sprawling city of slums, factories, and politicians unaccustomed to paying for power.

When companies from the private sector partnered with the government in 2002 to distribute the city's energy, more than half of electricity generated was stolen.

Since then, the energy companies have aggressively fought to stop the theft, a gruelling battle that officials say they are slowly winning.

In a country facing massive power shortages, fighting power theft is an important way to make electricity distribution more reliable, officials say.

Still, the shortfall is massive. In a nation of 1.2 billion, roughly 600 million people have no access to electricity at all, and those who do endure rolling blackouts that can last up to 12 hours.

The demand is expected to grow by four to five times over the next 25 years, but the country's antiquated power grids are already overwhelmed.

India's energy deficit will be one of the most serious challenges facing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as he begins his second term, and his administration is exploring nuclear, solar and wind power to address the gap.

This industrial block in west Delhi, home to a litter of stray puppies and a suspect plastics manufacturer, represents the front lines in the war on energy theft.

Vikrant Seth, the private sector enforcement official leading the raid, reviewed the plans in the pre-dawn darkness. He hoped this would be a big one - four police officers would accompany the team in case things turned violent, as they sometimes did.

A tired man with a thin moustache, Seth is one of the many people fighting block-by-block to clean up the system. It's an unenviable task.

Many Indians have a long-standing reluctance to pay for power, dating back to the era when the state controlled nearly the entire economy, including the energy sector, and securing a legal power connection could take a lifetime.

Power companies across the country lose an average of 40 per cent of the power generated, according to a 2007 government report.

The situation was especially bad in New Delhi - the same report called the capital's state power company "a corrupt and inefficient monopoly" that offered "abysmally poor service."

Many people illegally tapped into the neighbourhood connection, betting that the authorities were too slow, or too corrupt, to stop them. The resulting cobweb of power lines helped push the capital's electric company more than $3 billion (Dh11 billion) in debt in 2002.

That year, subsidiaries of Reliance ADA Group and Tata Group, two of India's most powerful conglomerates, entered a partnership with the government to distribute power in the capital and halt the losses.


Reliance and Tata had impressive track records in Mumbai where power distribution losses are among the lowest in the country.

Through dozens of power raids every week, among other strategies, they have managed to dramatically reduce theft in Delhi. BSES, the Reliance subsidiary that handles two-thirds of Delhi's power, has sent more than 650 people to prison and booked more than 114,000 cases in special courts that handle only electricity cases.

By the end of last year, BSES, where Seth works, had cut theft from around 52 per cent in 2002 to 28 per cent. Seth's bosses want to bring that down to 10 per cent.

Before dawn on a recent Saturday, Seth corralled his men to review details for the three raids planned for the morning. When his crew was ready, Seth hopped into a white van, part of a large convoy, and headed for the first target.

Inside the windowless factory, an enormous, clanging machine belched smoke as it spat out sheets of black plastic so cheap it turned to powder in your hand. Two scrawny men sat on the floor folding the plastic while a third slept in the corner.

A team of engineers checked the electric meters and inspected a cable sticking up from the ground while others headed to the attic to investigate suspicious wires hanging from the roof.

Outside, a police officer took off his shoes to nap inside a van while Seth spoke into his cell phone. The sun was ready to rise.

Nearly two hours after the raid at the plastics factory, technicians walked outside shaking their head. They couldn't prove that the factory was stealing power.

After signing sheets of paperwork, Seth climbed back into the white van, not entirely convinced the factory owner wasn't stealing.

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/India/10328814.html

Other countries in a lesser developed state than here can get their act together, why not here....

And I can't afford a Ferrari, but does it make it ok to go steal one? even if everyone else does?

A man robs a bank is he wrong? if he's doing it to feed his family is it less wrong?

Too much to think about, the people need to whine on about the wages and jobs situation, to enable them to pay their electric.

Its such a vicious circle, the electric is so expensive because people don't pay, and thats why they can't afford it in the first place. The danger lies in that the more increases that come, the less people pay again, and the more that steal, and I'm sure someone can tell us what happens then.....


You have a valid point, some people need help, but did I pay $8k for my home bill and $5k for my office bill so half the barrios in the east of the city can run their air-con on an illegal hook-up. No.

Would I mind so much to them enough to power the essentials (fridge and lighting), maybe not.

And don't get me started on factories/businesses (people who can pay and try not to) moving to the flat rate areas to run their heavy equipment....I'll just get angry...
 

alicious

Bronze
Oct 2, 2007
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I tried to give you reputation points SantiagoDR, but apparently I have to "spread them around" to other ppl first. The pics are great. The captions and the point it makes are also really well presented. A picture is worth a thousand words for sure!
Those pictures make a way bigger impact than a 1000 word post!!!!
 

alicious

Bronze
Oct 2, 2007
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Wow....makes you realize how little you have to actually complain about when you see things like this!
 
Jun 18, 2007
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www.rentalmetrocountry.com
I?ve lived in 5 countries prior to living here and after moving into my house last year February I got my first electricity bill ever in this country at the end of the month. It stated on the bill that payment had to be made before the 7th of March but working 7 days a week I thought by myself that I would have time to pay. To my surprise they showed up on the 10th of March to cut of my electricity!!!! In all the other countries I lived in I could be behind at least 3 months before they would cut me off but not here!!!! And they still have f....d up service and no money!!!!!!!!!
To many pay offs and theft!!!!!
 

ExtremeR

Silver
Mar 22, 2006
3,078
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The biggest problem here is the onerous contracts the plants ere have, when you have to pay a electricity bill of US$400 just for turning on one air conditioner for only one room every night the problem is really serious.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,369
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Nice try SantiagoDR, but those people are NOT the problem!

Households in extreme poverty barely are 10% of the total, its impossible for them to be THE problem for the electricity companies.

Its the remaining 90% where the problem lies. If that 90% of the population that doesn't live in extreme poverty pay, subsidizing the consumption of the 10% that does lives in extreme poverty (considering that this group is most subjected to not having electricity at all, not due to blackouts but simply due to not being connected to the grid, especially in rural areas) is a non-issue. Plus, its not just households (they only make up around 40% of all electricity consumers), much of the business sector also needs to start paying.

People need to stop making excuses and simply pay for their service.

They always say they don't have enough to for this or that, but they always have enough to gamble in cockfights, spend evenings and entire weekends drinking alcohol, betting on baseball games, keeping the prostitutes in business, for all of that and more there seems to be an abundance of money. For everything else, suddenly there is none.

Most countries in the world are developing countries with a percentage of their people (in many cases surpassing the DR's by a very wide margin) in extreme poverty and yet, most countries seem to have a much more stable electricity service than does the DR with most of the people in those countries paying for their service.

And then there are the various examples in the DR (the largest one being the entire Punta Cana region) where everyone, from the richest to the poorest - including the Haitians in the Little Hait?ses, pay for their electric service, and consequently the entire region has a stable service 24/7.

People need to pay, there are no excuses.

-NALs
 
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Robert

Stay Frosty!
Jan 2, 1999
20,574
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If you want to watch a good DVD about a similar situation in Georgia after the Russians left and the grid fell apart, it's called "Power Trip".
They faced many of the same problems that exist here.

Colombia solved the problem, then again, they are 3-4 generations in education level ahead. But never the less, all have power and all pay.
They use a system of "estractos", a system we have discussed before on DR1.

EDESUR, EDNORTE etc are not willing to invest in giving people solutions to pay. The infrastructure costs money and they are always crying poor.
Add to the above, the authorities lack of support to enforce payment.
It's a mess and will stay that way for the foreseeable future.

Then you have the President saying that the government isn't corrupt, but some are weak. What an insult to Dominicans, no wonder they have no will to help themselves. Even the President is in denial, despite the MASSIVE amount of factual evidence to the contrary.

It's easier to bury your head in the sand, than actually face reality, do something and make a difference. Welcome to Dominican politics!
 

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
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Nice try NALs

..... Nice try SantiagoDR, but those people are NOT the problem!
So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

Households in extreme poverty barely are 10% of the total, its impossible for them to be THE problem for the electricity companies.
Again I ask: So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

Many of the population suffer from the same problems, not just those in "extreme" condition homes.

NO JOBS and LOW PAY for those that do work.
They too, can not afford to pay. So to "your 10%" add in the others.

Your definition of "extreme poverty", appears to be the condition of the home.
That's a false conclusion on your part! - Don't judge a book by it's cover!
Many living in clean, concrete block homes are in the same boat, no jobs, no money.

.... subsidizing the consumption of the 10% that does lives in extreme poverty (considering that this group is most subjected to not having electricity at all, not due to blackouts but simply due to not being connected to the grid, especially in rural areas) is a non-issue.
Again I ask: So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

The pictures were all taken in the city of SANTIAGO, the new homes one, is in "Cienfuego".
All are connected to the grid, except the new homes at this time.

......Plus, its not just households (they only make up around 40% of all electricity consumers).....
60% of electricity consumers are businesses - that's a heck of a lot of businesses, considering how many houses there are in the DR, I find that hard to believe.

Or do you mean to say: 60% of the electricity is consumed by businesses?
Even that is hard for me to believe.

Conclusion: (Tongue in cheek response)

Blame the businesses, blame the population over your 10% level.

.... and Remember:

President Leonel Fernandez admitted that there have been "weaknesses" in the administrative handlings of his government
Fernandez said that he was confident that there were no corrupt officials in his government. "I trust that they are not committing acts of corruption."

"I trust government officials"
SantiagoDR
 

bob saunders

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
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Yes, but do having free luz( paid by those that pay) help these poor people become better off. Does it help educate them, does it give them a job, and does it help them get the area around their houses clean. Even poor people should be showing some pride in their surroundings.
 

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
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So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

Again I ask: So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

Many of the population suffer from the same problems, not just those in "extreme" condition homes.

NO JOBS and LOW PAY for those that do work.
They too, can not afford to pay. So to "your 10%" add in the others.

Your definition of "extreme poverty", appears to be the condition of the home.
That's a false conclusion on your part! - Don't judge a book by it's cover!
Many living in clean, concrete block homes are in the same boat, no jobs, no money.


Again I ask: So do we just continue to ignore these people - Hide them away somewhere?

The pictures were all taken in the city of SANTIAGO, the new homes one, is in "Cienfuego".
All are connected to the grid, except the new homes at this time.

60% of electricity consumers are businesses - that's a heck of a lot of businesses, considering how many houses there are in the DR, I find that hard to believe.

Or do you mean to say: 60% of the electricity is consumed by businesses?
Even that is hard for me to believe.

Conclusion: (Tongue in cheek response)

Blame the businesses, blame the population over your 10% level.

.... and Remember:




"I trust government officials"
SantiagoDR

How about not giving them any break?, you either pay for what you consume at an affordable rate or you don't get to watch tv. After all it's not like they need to be plugged to be alive, nobody die from not watching tv, listening to "Bachata" etc. Unless they have an specific medical condition that demand they have electricity 24/7, otherwise let them have none, zero, zilch hours of electric power a day, it's not like is making a big difference in their lives anyway, they are not coming out of poverty by watching 6 hours of "novelas" everyday.

Let the need to watch tv be the driving force that allow them to better themselves, get the skill to improve their lives.
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
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Didn't Balaguer start subsidizing electricity (I'm asking; I thought I heard that somewhere)?

If so, wouldn't that be why people think electricity is free? Or should be? At the time you'd be talking a single light bulb in a modest hut.

More unintended consequences of gubmint policy.

Less than half of Dominicans pay for electricity, and they are charges 2-3 times what the rest of the world pays. Ans STILL it's not enough.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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PRA was designed to resolve the needs of marginal barrios. The problem was that the program was applied on barrio-wide (sector-wide) basis instead of on an individual basis.

So what happened: energy-consuming businesses started to move there and set shop there (welding, mechanics, etc.) basically paying 1,000 pesos flat fee for energy instead of paying metered electricity at the going rate.

The same goes for houses, people started to buy lots to build nice big houses in certain areas of marginal barrios (technically creating a new, higher-class subdivision) because technically (by zoning) they belonged to the marginal barrio and thus paid 400 to 500 pesos for a two-stories house full of A/C blowing 24/7.

My question is, why cannot the poor person pay 100 pesos per month for luz? Sure they can!
I always say: better something than nothing, if you come to my everybody-brings-something party again and again and you just come and eat and drink and go away, I will start to develop "feelings" (negative) towards you and you will no longer be welcome at my party. But if you bring at least a bottle of Brugal I will say - hey the guy doesn't have that much money, so he could not bring whiskey, but at least he brought SOMETHING ... he is not just a free-goer. It's the intention that matters, not the volume or value of stuff.

The same applies to electricity ... if they pay (but I mean PAY) 100 or 150 pesos for a zinc shack, 300 pesos for a small wood house, 500 pesos for a smaller block house, etc... based on economic power ... it still would add up a lot to the collection pool. Of course, making pay the big "thieves" be those businesses or individuals is also important ... but at least that way the big thieves could no longer allege that if "fulano in a zinc shack can steal the electricity, I can as well..."

BUT ... the people living in poor conditions think the power is a God given right, for which they don't even have to pay 100 or 150 pesos per month.... AND will rather buy the power cables over and over after they are disconnected from the grid and cables taken away by the power brigades, than to pay 100 or 200 pesos per month.