Dominicans and Suicide Bombers...

Mr. Lu · Sep 4, 2009

As I walked to work this morning I overheard a very interesting conversation by two young Dominicans. Disgusted with recent news of energy collapses, Metro inefficiencies, Fernandez's lack of leadership, nepotism and theft in government, one of the men yelled out:

"We call Arabs crazy. We call them crazy because they run into buildings and blow themselves up. If there is a corrupt politician or something they don't like or their religion, they strap the bomb on and go, boom!"

I was astounded by his defense of suicide bombers. His friend interjected disapprovingly, and he then continued to explain himself.

"It is not about the bombing. But they don't take crap. We Dominicans take crap. Nosotros somos aguantadores. For as bad as it is with the bombings at least they do what THEY think is right to make a change. We just sit here and take it all."

I was surprised with such in depth conversation, from two young Dominicans, at 7am. But it got me thinking about the general levels of apathy within the DR. How in fact, no one really cares. For as much flag waving and t-shirt wearing and award speeches thanking the love of the DR, no one really cares what happens here.

A stern defense "for love and country" when a foolish gringo points out an opposing view point and Facebook comments aside, apathy has become this generation's worst enemy.

And I know many of the Dominicans on the board will yell out, "But I love the DR and so does my neighbor." Or begin to negate my argument by spouting references and insults of "self-hate," ignorance, hate for the DR or play the victim card. But these "enablers," are as much at fault for many of the issues that are plaguing this country.

The DR is a great country. It is a fascinating place, who's best resource is its people. Beyond the struggles and hurdles faced by Dominicans, I am amazed, on a daily basis, that it's people have done so much, in so little time, with "no help." I see the successes of Dominicans in all fields, from all social classes, all around the world, and I marvel at the successes, but also expect the outcomes. It leads me to believe that the sky is the limit, once everyone gets on board and gets with the plan.

But the problem, in the most general sense, beyond the great stories and the limitless possibilities, is that "no one" cares. But I guess it is hard to "care" about more than yourself when you have no money to eat.

Note:

When I refer to "nobody," understand this is a general blanket statement. I know there are people that care and people who are working hard to make change. But that core of people, who need to care, don't, and that is who I am referring to.

Mr. Lu

frank recktenwald · Sep 4, 2009

Mr. Lu said:
As I walked to work this morning I overheard a very interesting conversation by two young Dominicans. Disgusted with recent news of energy collapses, Metro inefficiencies, Fernandez's lack of leadership, nepotism and theft in government, one of the men yelled out:

"We call Arabs crazy. We call them crazy because they run into buildings and blow themselves up. If there is a corrupt politician or something they don't like or their religion, they strap the bomb on and go, boom!"

I was astounded by his defense of suicide bombers. His friend interjected disapprovingly, and he then continued to explain himself.

"It is not about the bombing. But they don't take crap. We Dominicans take crap. Nosotros somos aguantadores. For as bad as it is with the bombings at least they do what THEY think is right to make a change. We just sit here and take it all."

I was surprised with such in depth conversation, from two young Dominicans, at 7am. But it got me thinking about the general levels of apathy within the DR. How in fact, no one really cares. For as much flag waving and t-shirt wearing and award speeches thanking the love of the DR, no one really cares what happens here.

A stern defense "for love and country" when a foolish gringo points out an opposing view point and Facebook comments aside, apathy has become this generation's worst enemy.

And I know many of the Dominicans on the board will yell out, "But I love the DR and so does my neighbor." Or begin to negate my argument by spouting references and insults of "self-hate," ignorance, hate for the DR or play the victim card. But these "enablers," are as much at fault for many of the issues that are plaguing this country.

The DR is a great country. It is a fascinating place, who's best resource is its people. Beyond the struggles and hurdles faced by Dominicans, I am amazed, on a daily basis, that it's people have done so much, in so little time, with "no help." I see the successes of Dominicans in all fields, from all social classes, all around the world, and I marvel at the successes, but also expect the outcomes. It leads me to believe that the sky is the limit, once everyone gets on board and gets with the plan.

But the problem, in the most general sense, beyond the great stories and the limitless possibilities, is that "no one" cares. But I guess it is hard to "care" about more than yourself when you have no money to eat.

Note:

When I refer to "nobody," understand this is a general blanket statement. I know there are people that care and people who are working hard to make change. But that core of people, who need to care, don't, and that is who I am referring to.

Mr. Lu

Most Dominicans are descendants from African slaves who were told upon arrival and during their lives to keep their mouths shut. After they became
"free men" they were still told to shut up by their "employers" and this went on and is still going on for generations.
I strongly believe that that has to do something with their apathy and it will take generations to change that.

Hillbilly · Sep 4, 2009

I suppose i could oppose Frank's statement about "most" but I do not think that the forebearers have much to do with this original post.

I do think that what Mr. Lu is saying is that (1) There is a growing perception of frustration at "doing nothing and doing something --even so drastic as a suicide bomb--is possibly better than sitting there and doing nothing. At least it is an alternative.
Editor Adrian Tejada has hinted at the growing levels of frustration for several months.

It is there, we are just a tad too complacent, as these two fellows so pointed out.!!!

HB

Vacara · Sep 4, 2009

Hillbilly said:
I suppose i could oppose Frank's statement about "most" but I do not think that the forebearers have much to do with this original post.

I do think that what Mr. Lu is saying is that (1) There is a growing perception of frustration at "doing nothing and doing something --even so drastic as a suicide bomb--is possibly better than sitting there and doing nothing. At least it is an alternative.
Editor Adrian Tejada has hinted at the growing levels of frustration for several months.

It is there, we are just a tad too complacent, as these two fellows so pointed out.!!!

HB

This level of complacency was designed by the big fellow "USA", I have to go to work now, I'll elaborate more when I'm back.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

frank recktenwald said:
Most Dominicans are descendants from African slaves who were told upon arrival and during their lives to keep their mouths shut. After they became
"free men" they were still told to shut up by their "employers" and this went on and is still going on for generations.
I strongly believe that that has to do something with their apathy and it will take generations to change that.

This is not correct, although many Dominican obviously have African heritage it didn't work out as you explain it. There were many more free people, white, black and mulatto, than slaves here in the DR and intermarrying was common. The slave "traditions" had little effect on the DR in this regard.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

Vacara said:
This level of complacency was designed by the big fellow "USA", I have to go to work now, I'll elaborate more when I'm back.

...but of course.

I suppose all the lambones on the gov't. payroll are the gringo's fault too, el pipo.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

For my part I see the mixture of the traditional latin attitudes of somewhat lackadaisical work ethic, emphasis on leisure time and socializing, the fact that Dominican are very homogeneous in their identity compared to other LA countries and the cultural stigma that complaining too strongly is considered uneducated creates the perfect environment for an such antipathy. If it weren't for the strong tradition of socializing and enjoying life, the perceived injustices might have time to actually foment real action, but mostly they just foment a good buzz, some dancing and talk of moving to nuevaiyol or a new business que rinde mucho.

In othr words if there weren't the real strong tradition here on winding down and enjoying life through spirits and conversation and there were more cultural divisions among the people, say like in Mexico, things would be different.

Vacara · Sep 4, 2009

Chip said:
...but of course.

I suppose all the lambones on the gov't. payroll are the gringo's fault too, el pipo.

Of course you wouldn't know this Chip.

Dominicans have a long history of fighting for just causes, we defeated the French and the Spaniards. We defeated the same Haitians who destroyed the army Napoleon sent to reconquer his former colony.

Without our help Cuba probably would still be a colony of Spain, Jose Marti was more about writing poems than about fighting and it was Maximo Gomez -born and raised in DR- who got the job done of defeating the Spaniards. No wonder they call him "The Napoleon of the guerrilla war".

We got rid of who was probably the most cruel dictator the American Continent has ever seen (Trujillo), we killed too the guy Trujillo used as model for his regime (Lilis).

Of the two nations in the Hispaniola island only one got its independence fighting for it (hint; is not Haiti).

The Level of complacency Mr. Lu is referring too started right after the 1965 revolution, when Americans opened the gate of the USA to whoever wanted to immigrate, not question asked, no need to prove economic solvency to get a tourist visa, just go the the consulate and show your passport.

The US wanted the "cabezas calientes" to leave the country so the unpopular regime they were supporting could be stabilized.

Since then; when faced with the choices of fighting for social causes or just taking the "yola" and leave the country Dominicans usually take the second option.

Adrian Bye · Sep 4, 2009

right on lu

catcherintherye · Sep 4, 2009

A very good and thought-provoking thread, Mr. Lu.

Also, several very reasoned and considered responses from Frank, Hillbilly, Chip, and Vacara. All of those posts provided some very valuable pieces to the puzzle. I have learned much in a short period of time.

Thanks again, Mr. Lu, for the great initiative.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

Vacara said:
Of course you wouldn't know this Chip..

What does your post have to do with why Balaguer dfecided to build a government based on clientelism instead of performance?

Also, where did you say that you and your family live? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

frank recktenwald · Sep 4, 2009

Chip said:
This is not correct, although many Dominican obviously have African heritage it didn't work out as you explain it. There were many more free people, white, black and mulatto, than slaves here in the DR and intermarrying was common. The slave "traditions" had little effect on the DR in this regard.

Because of the intermarrying is the reason that what I mentioned was passed on for generations. One can bitch at home but don't go against the establishment, it's a class society where the lower class just has to keep quiet.
I see it with my in laws, with my stepchildren and I saw it many times in my professional as well as in my social life here in the DR as well as in Panama.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Dr until a couple of decades ago a more "peasant" society and just recently you see more professionals?
Maybe this also has to do with the Latin culture but I do believe that slave traditions had more than just a little effect on the DR especially with so many Haitians living here now.
Don't get me wrong I'm not "blaming" all on slavery but more on the lack of educated people who are still living like their peasant ancestors because they don't know better.
I see some similarities with my grandparents they were almost the same but time changes and so will the DR.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

frank recktenwald said:
Because of the intermarrying is the reason that what I mentioned was passed on for generations. One can bitch at home but don't go against the establishment, it's a class society where the lower class just has to keep quiet.
I see it with my in laws, with my stepchildren and I saw it many times in my professional as well as in my social life here in the DR as well as in Panama.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Dr until a couple of decades ago a more "peasant" society and just recently you see more professionals?
Maybe this also has to do with the Latin culture but I do believe that slave traditions had more than just a little effect on the DR especially with so many Haitians living here now.
Don't get me wrong I'm not "blaming" all on slavery but more on the lack of educated people who are still living like their peasant ancestors.

Good observations, but this is classism, not a racial issue. White people aren't expected to make a big fuss either. Of course if you have high standing in this society you can be as black as coal or white and do it and get away with it, to a certain extent.

I have an example of Dominican American friend who is moreno who works for an influential American company here and he has told me of the boches that he has given to some Dominicans here, professionals, politicians and even a general I believe. If I did that I would be deported no doubt, even though I'm lily white.

frank recktenwald · Sep 4, 2009

Chip said:
Good observations, but this is classism, not a racial issue. White people aren't expected to make a big fuss either. Of course if you have high standing in this society you can be as black as coal or white and do it and get away with it, to a certain extent.

I have an example of Dominican American friend who is moreno who works for an influential American company here and he has told me of the boches that he has given to some Dominicans here, professionals, politicians and even a general I believe. If I did that I would be deported no doubt, even though I'm lily white.

It's part of classism as well as a racial issue, who are the poorest Dominicans?
They're black or mulato, so it boils down to race.
Thank God I see changes happening but it's a slow process

Mr. Lu · Sep 4, 2009

I agree with most of the responses posted here, since, at the very least, they shine some perspective to the problems I alluded to.

There is a truth to Recktenwald's answer. There is a history of complacency as a result of being always told what to do and how to do it. It's original layer being the African slaves, and in later years, a result of iron fisted governance by Dominican politicians.

This, I do agree, adds a complex layer that needs to be discussed when understanding the perplexities of the problem. "Many" Dominicans have not been allowed to "think" for themselves and are devoid of ability to think critically because they have not been allowed to think. The thought process has been done for them, therefore it creates a perfect environment for apathy.

Chip also made a valid point that the homogeneous nature in the DR and the fear of making "too much"noise because it is uneducated to do so, does hold its weight and once again adds a layer to peel off, as the discourse continues.

However, the comments by poster Vacara, were in themselves disappointing and a clear example of the issues associated with the apathetic nature that has permeated throughout Dominican culture.

Within any conversation, I am able and willing to give credence to historical pressures that have lasting influences and have shaped the way we live today. But an unwillingness to accept responsibility for this apathetic behavior and understand its roots, is disheartening. The unwillingness to denounce this behavior in fellow citizens, but rather point the finger and say "the gringos did it," is in itself a shameful and disappointing act.

Why can't Dominicans stand up and say "we are wrong," and begin a process of progress through responsible civil and social action, cemented within the idea that "it is Dominicans" who will make the change and no one else.

Why can't Dominicans challenge themselves to be better citizens and challenge each other to become responsible for the good and the bad?

There is truth to a level of laziness. And not that stereotypical laziness associated with people, where Don Juan lays under the palm tree all day and forgets he has a job. But that mental laziness which refuses to take action, and allows for someone else to do it for you.

My comments are not directed at Vacara, per say, since I do not know this person, but what I am arguing against is the dangers associated with this response and how symbolic it is of a greater issue within the Dominican psyche. It is not the words, yet, what they reflect that should be of concern. I am aware that Dominicans are able to do anything and everything, but that apathetic behavior, which I can so easily dismiss, is reflected in that unwillingness by "some" to take responsibility and say, "my fault."

When will Dominicans stand up and not take a "botella" or call out his friend when she/he does so? Who, of the Dominicans on this board, are willing to take that responsibility?

If you are unwilling to do so, then don't ever tell me you love your country or that you love being Dominican. I would guess that when you truly love something you would be willing to make sacrafices. No?

Note:

My comments are not directed at anyone specifically.

Mr. Lu

Adrian Bye · Sep 4, 2009

you can't easily change weaknesses. you can build on strengths. they will need to find their own unique strengths to move them forward to the next level.

Chip · Sep 4, 2009

The solution is the education of the children and their exposure to different ideas and expectations. If there is anything good about the internet, it is the exchange of ideas. Already I see in my daughter's school books that they are talking about the environment and how important it is to take care of it and not throw trash on the ground. In twenty years I expect to see a whole lot more change than we did in the last 100. We also need some Dominicans who lived abroad to get involved in politics here, hint, hint.

Lambada · Sep 4, 2009

adrianb said:
you can't easily change weaknesses. you can build on strengths.

That is so true. And one of the greatest Dominican strengths that I see, both historically and currently, is resilience, the ability to bounce back, to overcome (or find their own unique way round :cheeky

obstacles. People mired in self-hate can't do this: they will either react with depression or inactivity. So maybe, just maybe, the 'not taking responsibility' is either a conscious or unconscious way of remaining mentally healthy, mentally whole? In which case maybe it would be possible to suggest that sometimes denial of responsibility is functional to survival?

I would accept the historical roots discussed above, although I see the legacy of the dictatorship as more significant than roots in slavery. But equally I see the 'not taking responsibility' as a reaction to exploitation, both internal, class based exploitation AND the perceived and actual exploitation by foreigners particularly historically. And I'm not too sure there is that much 'complacency' to be honest: sometimes what I thought was complacency has turned out to be a streetwise way of overcoming a problem.

Mr. Lu · Sep 4, 2009

....

Lambada said:
That is so true. And one of the greatest Dominican strengths that I see, both historically and currently, is resilience, the ability to bounce back, to overcome (or find their own unique way round :cheeky obstacles. People mired in self-hate can't do this: they will either react with depression or inactivity. So maybe, just maybe, the 'not taking responsibility' is either a conscious or unconscious way of remaining mentally healthy, mentally whole? In which case maybe it would be possible to suggest that sometimes denial of responsibility is functional to survival?

I would accept the historical roots discussed above, although I see the legacy of the dictatorship as more significant than roots in slavery. But equally I see the 'not taking responsibility' as a reaction to exploitation, both internal, class based exploitation AND the perceived and actual exploitation by foreigners particularly historically. And I'm not too sure there is that much 'complacency' to be honest: sometimes what I thought was complacency has turned out to be a streetwise way of overcoming a problem.

Interesting. I like the alternate perspective. As well as adrianb's very positive take on things. These are potential solutions.

Mr. Lu

pedrochemical · Sep 4, 2009

The 'Panda Principle' roughly says that even if an incumbent system is not the most efficient, the fact that is occupies it's space at the current time means it is difficult to replace.
So we are stuck with the status quo for now.
I think living conditions would have to get a whole lot worse before people take to the streets to change things.

For my mind reading books is good for you. Libraries are great things. The internet helps spread ideas too.
Be careful what you wish for though.
There are plenty of destructive ideas around to mitigate the intellectual growth of a culture.
People who disseminate destructive ideas often market more aggressively than progressive humanists.

One has to self regulate.

Dominicans and Suicide Bombers...

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