Beauty and the beast

Matilda

RIP Lindsay
Sep 13, 2006
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I have just watched the film about the Mirabel sisters - the Butterflies, and it makes me wonder about this country. That happened not centuries ago, but a few decades ago. And I want to know is there something seriously wrong with this place?? Women beaten to death as they disagreed with Trujillo. Is it really so very different now???

I know it can be fabulous, great beaches, Presidente, Brugal, girls (for those who partake), a childlike innocence, absence of rules and a feeling of freedom, an amazing caring spirit if you are hungry - Dominicans share -, if you are in hospital, they visit you, if you have no money they will give you some, and fun , fun fun, but.......

The violence is appalling. I have witnessed the following in the last few years. And not just from lowlife shoe shine boys and sankies, but from very rich, supposedly cultured people too , A man thinks his wife is cheating on him he kills her. You upset someone - they kill you. Someone is cross with you they do all they can to kill you. If a woman thinks another woman is after her man she throws hot fat in her face. If someone comes to rob you, they shoot you. And it is not just the Dominicans. We have seen ex- pats behaving like animals too. There is a major crime such as a murder, pay the police enough and they close the investigation. Money talks. Criminals walk.

Don't just blame drugs. There were no drugs in the time of Trujillo. I want to know is there something inherently bad in this country, and not just in Dominicans, as Haitians and ex pats are behaving in the same way, which leads to this lack in basic human decency.

What I want to know is.

Is this country really beyond redemption??? Why is it the way it is? What can we do to change it?

matilda
 

Seamonkey

Bronze
Oct 6, 2009
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755
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Matilda, it's way beyond the DR. Here in Canada, especially in the bigger cities; Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, the crime rate is higher each year. Mostly gang or mob related shootings, but innocent bystanders are often killed as well. Shootings are almost a daily event in Toronto these days. It's seems our society has no conscience and will kill at nothing. People have lost all respect for others and think that the world owes them. Corruption is well alive in our Government as well.

Amongst all of this are many great people....the majority are great. Surround yourself with good people and real friends, life is good.
 

DRNED

New member
Oct 28, 2009
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You may be emotional after recently viewing the film, but really this happens everywhere.
We have lived all over the world on our working travels and this is by no means anywhere near the top 10 most violent places of where we have lived.

Women are still stoned to death all over the world, slow hanged, bled to death (tortured), etc etc. this country really isn't that bad if you want to open this up internationally.
 

suarezn

Gold
Feb 3, 2002
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Matilda: I don't think we're inherently violent...as a matter of fact I think the opposite is true. I do know that The DR has changed tremendously over the last 10 - 15 years and drugs are the main reason why crime has gone up to the levels we see today.

You have to separate the types of crimes.

The Mirabal murders is a different matter altogether. The book makes it seem that they were killed because they rebuked Trujillo. Even though that was before my time my understanding is that this is not totally true. They and their boyfriends were in fact member of the resistance movement that was trying to overthrow and kill Trujillo. Remember that he was a dictator and as such a lot of these killings were politically motivated. I believe this was the case with the three sisters.

The killing of the cheating spouse (the woman 99% of the time) is a carryover of the Spanish / Latin culture of machismo and the believe that if the guy puts up with it then he's less of a man and everyone will make fun of him (which in fact they do).

Now the violence that exists nowadays associated with robberies / assaults / kidnappings, etc this is all a new phenomenon and directly correlated to drugs. I can tell you that about 20 years ago (before drugs) The DR was probably one of the safest countries. Theft was rare and when it did happen was petty theft and extremely rare that it involved violence. I can tell you that back then I felt confident I could pass out drunk on the side of the road in my hometown and someone would just probably pick me up and take me home and I'd still have my wallet. Nowadays I wouldn't think of drinking too much even in my hometown and if I passed out I probably wake up naked if at all.

Unfortunately I believe we're too far gone at this point and we won't see those days anymore. Violence comes and goes in cycles and we're in the upswing right now. Once the bad element is killed off then we'll see a decline (years from now) in violence, but for now all we can do is bear with it, be vigilant and stay as safe as possible.
 

Linda Stapleton

Well-known member
Jun 3, 2003
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I know how I want to answer this, being a Christian, but I can anticipate the responses, so I'll watch how this develops for a while.

For those who don't know, there was recently a very severe warning given by an African Pastor who claims to have received many dreams and visions regarding a judgment from God against the Dominican Republic, predicting a tsunami and huge earthquake (seems principally in the PP region). This is a man with a track record of prediction, I believe. This "judgment" is against the Dominican church, which is claimed to be largely beyond redemption at present, not against those who apparently aren't even trying to avoid behaving in the ways Matilda is describing.

I shall be very interested to see people's answer's to the questions but my brief answers are:

Is this country really beyond redemption???
No, I have to believe that it isn't, but it does require individual repentance and a change in each of us, especially the leaders.
Why is it the way it is? Where to begin? Simplistically, until there is a different example from those in power it is hard to foresee change. I am sure we will get some very in depth and knowledgeable responses to this question.
What can we do to change it? I know many of the world's worst offences have been committed in the name of religion, but I do believe that a genuine, widespread spiritual change could bring about the miracle that is needed. Then again, many believe that this is the beginning of the end times and all this chaos and disintegration of society is inevitable.....
 

Matilda

RIP Lindsay
Sep 13, 2006
5,485
338
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Matilda: I don't think we're inherently violent...as a matter of fact I think the opposite is true. I do know that The DR has changed tremendously over the last 10 - 15 years and drugs are the main reason why crime has gone up to the levels we see today.

You have to separate the types of crimes.

The Mirabal murders is a different matter altogether. The book makes it seem that they were killed because they rebuked Trujillo. Even though that was before my time my understanding is that this is not totally true. They and their boyfriends were in fact member of the resistance movement that was trying to overthrow and kill Trujillo. Remember that he was a dictator and as such a lot of these killings were politically motivated. I believe this was the case with the three sisters.

The killing of the cheating spouse (the woman 99% of the time) is a carryover of the Spanish / Latin culture of machismo and the believe that if the guy puts up with it then he's less of a man and everyone will make fun of him (which in fact they do).

Now the violence that exists nowadays associated with robberies / assaults / kidnappings, etc this is all a new phenomenon and directly correlated to drugs. I can tell you that about 20 years ago (before drugs) The DR was probably one of the safest countries. Theft was rare and when it did happen was petty theft and extremely rare that it involved violence. I can tell you that back then I felt confident I could pass out drunk on the side of the road in my hometown and someone would just probably pick me up and take me home and I'd still have my wallet. Nowadays I wouldn't think of drinking too much even in my hometown and if I passed out I probably wake up naked if at all.

Unfortunately I believe we're too far gone at this point and we won't see those days anymore. Violence comes and goes in cycles and we're in the upswing right now. Once the bad element is killed off then we'll see a decline (years from now) in violence, but for now all we can do is bear with it, be vigilant and stay as safe as possible.

great post and thank you. I had a blow out of a tyre on the new highway from Samana to las Americas and was alone and some guys stopped and helped me. But one the one hand we have an amazingly great caring people, and on the other this appalling violence. Why??? And it is not just drugs!!!
 
?

? bient?t

Guest
For those who don't know, there was recently a very severe warning given by an African Pastor who claims to have received many dreams and visions regarding a judgment from God against the Dominican Republic, predicting a tsunami and huge earthquake (seems principally in the PP region). This is a man with a track record of prediction, I believe. This "judgment" is against the Dominican church, which is claimed to be largely beyond redemption at present, not against those who apparently aren't even trying to avoid behaving in the ways Matilda is describing.

Any links to the prophecies of this pastor africano?

Is he the same pastor who advised Sarah Palin?

2010
 

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
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Santiago
I don't think Dominicans are any worse than Amercans or any other country for that matter. I think it very much depends on where one lives. I feel every bit as safe here in Santiago as we felt in Orlando FL.
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
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It's all relative. The DR has its problems but the violence is nothing like on the scale of Colombia, Central America or Jamaica, just to pick some regional examples.

There have been warnings that the drug culture could end up in the "Mexicanisation" of the DR, and unfortunately recent events have shown that this is not that far-fetched a prediction.
 

wuarhat

I am a out of touch hippie.
Nov 13, 2006
1,378
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Juarez, Mexico, last year, had well over 2000 drug related murders last year. Phoenix, Arizona is averaging a kidnapping a day.
 
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Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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I think I just read that 79 were killed yesterday in one city in Mexico.

If you look at DR violence, the saddest of course is that which involves children, usually together with their moms. Pure machoism. This is generational, societal, anthropological, and will take decades to reduce. (I do think that some of the music feeds this sort of thinking)
Then there is the criminal element. THe "I want what you have" element. That is dangerous to those who are not careful, or those who flaunt what they have. It is certain that the country is not at all like it used to be. Thirty years ago much of what we see today was unheard of. Crimes such as experienced by Matilda and others were almost unheard of.
I do feel that the lack of solid institutions are the root cause of much of the violence:
No Police
No Justice system
Plus a tradition of "I have a friend in a high place" or the eternal "I am just a poor father of a family"...

Wish I could be more positive.

HB
 
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jrhartley

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Sep 10, 2008
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have you watched slumdog millionaire Matilda...now available on dvd lol,plenty of violence in that- poking out childrens eyes because blind singers make more money on the street
 

AlterEgo

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 9, 2009
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South Coast
Matilda, I'm somewhat in the same frame of mind that you are right now - I've seen the Mirabal sisters movie a few times. My son gave me a copy of Junot Diaz's book 'The Brief Wonderful Life of Oscar Wao', which I started on the plane down here - it left me shaken. I can't remember when a book brought a tear to my eye like that one did at the end. Then someone here in SD gave me a copy of "The Feast of the Goat", which one of my kids had told me to read a long time ago, but never got around to. [They had to read it for a college course] I finished that yesterday on Palenque Beach [amazingly crowded there, unusual!] Too much Trujillo for 2 weeks. I think my husband and mother-in-law are sick of all my Trujillo questions. And the place we rented is almost exactly at where they killed him.

Yesterday on the ride home from Palenque Beach, we picked up my mother-in-law and my husband's cousin Freddy from our house in Najayo Beach, and I asked a question. Freddy said laughingly "Don't say anything bad about my godfather". Seems that Freddy was one of those groups of kids that Trujillo personally baptized in the 50's - apparently there were hundreds of them. It actually was mentioned in Feast of the Goat, but at the time I read it I didn't realize it touched our family.

AE
 

TOOBER_SDQ

Bronze
Nov 19, 2008
708
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Where is AZB?

I expected him to already chime in aloofly that this is a phenomenon affecting only the lower class of society; Chopos & Barrio Rats.

Perhaps he?s too busy rubbing elbows with DR?s upper echelon.
 

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
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The horrible sisters murder was politically motivated and ordered by the dictator Trujillo. Compared to the deaths in other LA countries because of political violence the DR pales in comparison.

Argentina approx 30,000 deaths. (1976-1983)
Chile approx over 2,000 deaths. (1973-1990)
Guatemala over 200,000 deaths. (1960-1966)
El Salvador approx 75,000 deaths (1980-1992)

Those are but a few examples of the political violence experienced in Latin America. By comparison the deaths perpetrated by the Trujillo regime on its citizens doesn't even come close. I do not believe that historically the DR is any more violent than its neighbors.
 

Celt202

Gold
May 22, 2004
9,099
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Yup, I can see the monument from here....

That monument fascinates me. It just seems so appropriate and well done a monument to commemorate the removal of someone so irretrievably evil from the gene pool at that spot.