57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[PeterInBrat]

The economy of the DR has been on a steady climb esp since the 80s when they realized that sugar was getting them nowhere.

You don't see much happening when you are living there day to day, but you step back and visit every couple years you see the changes. Most are good and a few are bad. Ten years ago cell phones didn't exist, now virtually every woman on the island has one regardless of lifestyle.

I remember when you would see almost all moto conchos, and mostly publicos and gua guas, but now you see private cars all over the place. I see more high end SUVs in the DR than I do in my town in the US.

 

[Lambada]

The outward manifestation of more signs of wealth does not mean this is trickling through to everyone. See this thread, particularly Dolores' comments
http://www.dr1.com/forums/government/75831-informe-pnud-2008-a.html

The report itself in English:
Human Development Report Dominican Republic 2008

and where the DR is in the 'gap between rich and poor' tables
Gap Between Rich and Poor

 

[LindseyKaufman]

Thanks for the links, Ginnie. Great information. (How did I miss it a couple of years ago?)

From my small perspective, (I work with the poor) over the four + years since being here, the numbers (desperate humans coming for the most basic assistance) seems to have grown, not shrunk.

 

[greydread]

"I told you so"

The outward manifestation of more signs of wealth does not mean this is trickling through to everyone.

So true. A buddy who was born and raised in Key West recounted the mid '60s experience of developers who went house to house with a bag full of cash (avg $7,500) and a contract of sale for the little shacks of the inhabitants there. If you signed the contract you got to keep the cash. Most moved to Miami, bought Cadillacs and were broke in a year. This same story was mirrored all over the southern US as small family farns were replaced by corporate ones. The relative poverty that followed in this region made it very attractive (decades later) as a center for manufacturing, banking and other industries and we saw the "new South" of the 80's and 90's become more competitive as businesses looked to relocate to lower cost-per-employee areas from the northeast and midwest US.

Tourism and agro-business makes their target regions look good on paper but it's years before the collateral devastation can be quantified. Todays DR is in the throes of "progress" and it will take a few years for the dust to settle but there will be opportunities in secondary markets which will turn the increase in tourism into a part of the solution to todays economic disparity. Corporations will find it to their advantage to invest in the nations educational system and to provide training beyond minimum acceptance requirements. The percentage of Dominicans who live in poverty will be cut in half in the next 15 years if current trends continue and half again during the following 15 years. Tourism will be replaced by industry spawned by the tourism boom of this decade and the infrastructure will reflect this growth. The power will stay on 24/7, the highway system will be expanded, water reclamation plants will deliver potable water throughout most of the country and children will be offered quality public education. I hope I'm around in 15 years time to say "I told you so" as I pack my belongings because I can no longer afford to live there.

 

[Mujermaravilla]

Dominican people like to keep cars clean inside, reason for what we buy cars with magical "dumpsite" windows. Here in US is different most the cars are "trashcan" inside as people drive and eat and keep the trash in the vehicles.
I was parking cars in by the court house in the downtown and I drove the nastiest cars I have ever seen in my life. I don't understand how theses people don't get sick.

JJ

So this is your excuse why it's OK to throw trash out the window? It's your trash not the public's!!!! How is our country going to progress if we make up excuses for such behavior?!? It's the same thing in NYC the apt are nice and clean but then they take out their trash and leave it in the hallway. Like that's not part of their environment too!

 

[Africaida]

It's the same thing in NYC the apt are nice and clean but then they take out their trash and leave it in the hallway.

So true!! As a non-Dominican, it is very hard to comprehend..........

 

[Lambada]

From my small perspective, (I work with the poor) over the four + years since being here, the numbers (desperate humans coming for the most basic assistance) seems to have grown, not shrunk.

Same here and my comparison span is 17 years. And, again from personal experience of what I see, the gap between rich and poor appears to be widening, not decreasing.

 

[bachata]

So this is your excuse why it's OK to throw trash out the window? It's your trash not the public's!!!! How is our country going to progress if we make up excuses for such behavior?!? It's the same thing in NYC the apt are nice and clean but then they take out their trash and leave it in the hallway. Like that's not part of their environment too!

Doesn't the NY city government set trashcans on the sidewalks??? That is the only excuse we have in DR, if I did it some time in DR was because I don want to be all day walking around with my hands full of trash.

You don't have excuse to keep your car like a dump, clean it up in the week ends if you don't wanna do it every day when you get home.

JJ

 

[bienamor]

Doesn't the NY city government set trashcans on the sidewalks??? That is the only excuse we have in DR, if I did it some time in DR was because I don want to be all day walking around with my hands full of trash.

You don't have excuse to keep your car like a dump, clean it up in the week ends if you don't wanna do it every day when you get home.

JJ

Yes they put trashbins on the Sidewalk, not in the Hallways of the apartment building, those normally have a chute, or you are supposed to take it out to the trash bin. What does this and cleaning your car out on the weekends, have to do with "magical "dumpsite" windows" the accepted way to clean out your car in santo domingo.
Thats kind of like your neighbor sweeping all their trash down to the neighbors instead of picking it up and bagging it. Not in front of my house anymore!!
There is no excuse for it other than don't give a damn, education has nothing to do with it. you can at least put in the same pile as other people are using other than just throwing it out the windo.

 

[bob saunders]

Same here and my comparison span is 17 years. And, again from personal experience of what I see, the gap between rich and poor appears to be widening, not decreasing.

That may be true for the country of your origin. In your comparison span over the 17 years have you seen a relatively recent acceleration in the gap? I of course don't live in the DR yet, but I go each year, visit a number of areas that are non-tourist areas and I'm not sure how I would detect that the gap is getting larger, or smaller for that matter. I know that Yris has less students in her school but she has less people that don't pay also. Remittances are down over the past year or two but seem to be increasing again.

 

[donP]

Yes and No

I go each year, visit a number of areas that are non-tourist areas and I'm not sure how I would detect that the gap is getting larger, or smaller for that matter.

Correct.
But have you not noticed that more barrio people drive luxurious SUV's now? :cheeky: :tired:

donP

 

[NALs]

Same here and my comparison span is 17 years. And, again from personal experience of what I see, the gap between rich and poor appears to be widening, not decreasing.

That has been your perception, but what has actually occurred is a decrease in poverty levels and a decrease in income inequality. This is not measured at the consumption end, but at the income end.

 

[Lambada]

In your comparison span over the 17 years have you seen a relatively recent acceleration in the gap? I of course don't live in the DR yet, but I go each year, visit a number of areas that are non-tourist areas and I'm not sure how I would detect that the gap is getting larger, or smaller for that matter. I know that Yris has less students in her school but she has less people that don't pay also. Remittances are down over the past year or two but seem to be increasing again.

I have seen two periods of acceleration - one a few years back after Baninter scandal resulted in rocketing inflation, then there seemed to be a period of some improvement and more recently it appears to be happening again. How much this is tied to the global recession/events in Haiti et al. I have no time to research, so others can if they wish. Certainly this past 12 months I have seen more unemployment, businesses closing, more signs of genuine hunger and people in real need. And I'm not an easy touch to convince.

The OP (RIP) posted a link which had 47% of the population at subsistence level & 10% at indigence level for a total of 57% in poverty. I am wary of statistics because of whence they originate & who does them but back in 2004 that figure was 42.2% so it would appear that 57% is greater than 42%.
Population below poverty line:

Yes NALS it is my perception but it is one which comes from Puerto Plata not Connecticut. I'm not arguing that there isn't more wealth around, I think there probably is. What I think is happening is that the distribution of that wealth is not improving.

 

[cobraboy]

Yes NALS it is my perception but it is one which comes from Puerto Plata not Connecticut. I'm not arguing that there isn't more wealth around, I think there probably is. What I think is happening is that the distribution of that wealth is not improving.

So what happens in Puerto Plata, an old tourist town having difficulty competing with the newer tourist areas like Punta Cana, is an economic bellweather for the entire country?

The increase in per capita GDP in the DR is real, and the evidence is everywhere. Even those in the barrios have a higher standard of living that they had 10 years before.

 

[cobraboy]

The OP (RIP) posted a link which had 47% of the population at subsistence level & 10% at indigence level for a total of 57% in poverty. I am wary of statistics because of whence they originate & who does them but back in 2004 that figure was 42.2% so it would appear that 57% is greater than 42%.
Population below poverty line:

Then you'll understand how and why many think about the statistics that originate from the UN you cited and who does them, right?

I guess it comes down from who we ~want~ to believe, right?

 

[DMV123]

I personally believe that there is more wealth being generated here. I believe this country will continue to grow at a faster rate then other islands and countries. GDP per capita is growing. But the dispersion of this is not really changing.

I also personally believe that the disparity between the haves and have nots is growing!!! The poor are still there and no better off. The rich are getting richer.

 

[bob saunders]

When Yris was a child most people didn't own shoes, only had the sandles made from tires, belts same thing, most men used a piece of rope. Now most, even the poorest have shoes....etc. Most of the people that I met the first time I went to Jarabacoa were single women with children with most of them either living with family or renting. Many of these people now own their houses and are doing much better in almost every way than 10 years ago. Certainly the past two years have been very difficult but in Jarabacoa all the same stores are still open, in fact several new stores have opened. Restaurants - several have closed and several new ones have opened, perhaps more a sign of financial mis-management and poor product than the economy. Areas like PP have seen a great influx of Haitians at a time when the local economy has been affected by the global downturn. I still haven't any evidence presented by a poster that proves the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.

 

[RacerX]

Personal responsibility is not a singular act. It may manifest itself in a singular act, but it is a way to live one's life. It should be a way of living passed from parents to children (like Mom CB giving me an iron and ironing board for my 12th birthday, and letting me know if I wanted my clothes to look decent I'd bet learn how to use it...:cheeky:...and it worked!)

I would sat the DR in general could use an infusion or societal personal responsibility DNA. Seems one of the greatest complaint many expats have of the DR...you included, Ginnie...is a lack of it.

When an individual becomes knowingly responsible for himself it creates a society of responsible citizens.

Individual excuses for a lifetime of failure is not the way to strengthen a culture. In fact, it is a barrier for cultural progress.

Now we are back on topic. This is what I notice. There is no drive. Some people do and when you mention this can see where you are coming from. Others hold the notion that "a serious tried and true effort" is something beyond their level of comprehension. And it is sad when you actually look at the situation as an outsider and say that just a mere 10% interest in what it is you re doing would alleviate a great deal of your misery.
But then I am also separating people who are poor(without money) and those who just dont want to put in the effort and therefore remain poor(through no fault of their own, they will say. If only they had a patron from afuera todas las cosas seran mejor).

 

[DMV123]

. I still haven't any evidence presented by a poster that proves the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.

I am guessing it is a matter of where we both are drawing our perceptions from. I am in POP and we have lots of stores closing. We have many many people out of work. We have more kids on the streets begging and in the barrios there is more of a sense of resignation and lost hope. That is what I see.

I see clubs pretty much empty except for weekends when they used to be hopping 7 nights a week. I see hotels closed and obviously those employees out of work.

This is my information. It is relevant to this location. I don't know about the rest of the country so can't comment.

 

[RacerX]

So true. A buddy who was born and raised in Key West recounted the mid '60s experience of developers who went house to house with a bag full of cash (avg $7,500) and a contract of sale for the little shacks of the inhabitants there. If you signed the contract you got to keep the cash. Most moved to Miami, bought Cadillacs and were broke in a year. This same story was mirrored all over the southern US as small family farns were replaced by corporate ones. The relative poverty that followed in this region made it very attractive (decades later) as a center for manufacturing, banking and other industries and we saw the "new South" of the 80's and 90's become more competitive as businesses looked to relocate to lower cost-per-employee areas from the northeast and midwest US.

Tourism and agro-business makes their target regions look good on paper but it's years before the collateral devastation can be quantified. Todays DR is in the throes of "progress" and it will take a few years for the dust to settle but there will be opportunities in secondary markets which will turn the increase in tourism into a part of the solution to todays economic disparity. Corporations will find it to their advantage to invest in the nations educational system and to provide training beyond minimum acceptance requirements. The percentage of Dominicans who live in poverty will be cut in half in the next 15 years if current trends continue and half again during the following 15 years. Tourism will be replaced by industry spawned by the tourism boom of this decade and the infrastructure will reflect this growth. The power will stay on 24/7, the highway system will be expanded, water reclamation plants will deliver potable water throughout most of the country and children will be offered quality public education. I hope I'm around in 15 years time to say "I told you so" as I pack my belongings because I can no longer afford to live there.

ha! thats was funny...
more likely to stay competitive they will move to China, India, Vietnam or points east. Or if they stay in this hemisphere it will be a battle for the most underdeveloped country. Paraguay, Bolivia, Ecuador, by the way are we past creating economic disasters for our own financial gain. I dont think so.
The global marketplace means just that. They(these corporations) have no allegiance to anyone for any specific period of time.