900 US Troops on the Border

[ltsnyder]

Gabriela get in line . . . .

I do want to return to the topic. I just ask Robert to find a way of ensuring that people aren't voted off for having unpopular beliefs. Also, can you find a way of stopping the machine gun attacks on newbies? Respectfully yours....

Gabriela you have such a surrly attitude I feel like slapping you across the face. But then again, when voting comes online, I won't have to, so there. Hold on a second I have to yell to my wife to fetch my shoes cause I'm about to go out.
I don't know what your talking about, I give alot more than I think is fair to my wife. I even give her money for shopping. Now crawl back into the hole you came out of.



on a more serious note, it makes me laugh , how they (X and others) go through such contorsions to avoid a subject. Remeber most of the people on this forum walk around with concealed pistols on them. Make you wonder why they talk here. X as a moderator, you should work to facilitate rather than agravate a conversation. These are issues that need to be discussed and making a Gabrial has balls comment reveals more about your self than you know. One more thing, your "please start making sense " comment is old tired and worn out as you know I am well aware. Gabriela has issues about treatment of Hatians and women that need to be discussed.

While it is true that many treat Haitians with disrespect, others do not, I think the blame. . . let me rephrase that, education throught the common media channels available could help alleviate this problem some what, as far as women are concerned again it depends on the person, but the problem is deeply ingrained in the legal system, not the people (well that is my opinion).

-Lee

PS: Read it before it disappears.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Gabriela you have such a surrly attitude I feel like slapping you across the face ... on a more serious note, it makes me laugh , how they (X and others) go through such contorsions to avoid a subject ... X as a moderator, you should work to facilitate rather than agravate a conversation. These are issues that need to be discussed and making a Gabrial has balls comment reveals more about your self than you know.

I wasn't going to add anything here, but a few points Lee. Here's my original post in this thread:

This was really necessary? It's easy to deride someone you don't know, but I know the man personally and that's rubbish to even think he thinks like that. It's also offensive to me. The President acts in ways he thinks is best for the U.S. whatever anyone else thinks of that. There may be reasons to attack the actions, but not using skin color to base it on. Please remember that U.S. policy shifts with the party in office, and GB's principles are 180 degrees reversed from the previous party's "President", when he wasn't still searching for his "core values". Makes for a schizophrenic foreign policy sometimes, I agree.

Now, how was this trying to incite anything? Sounded to me like a very reasoned response.

The argument, and I am human, I get annoyed and say things I regret, came about when this silly person (Oops I did it again!) started injecting a thread about US troops in the DR (read the title above) with rants about racism, slavery, bondage, etc. Has no place here. I tried to be humourous and received an attack back about Alba. I would be banned if I printed what Alba
said in Spanish to Gabbyrella when she read it.

Obviously you are the one who shrinks at idea of a woman with balls.

Did I overreact? Sure. But one thing, Gabbyrella was the one who posted the idea of a 'woman with balls', not me. Seems like an oxymoron to me (Oops I did it again!) like 'Military Intelligence', 'Jumbo Shrimp', or 'Plastic Glasses'. But hey! That's just me. So if there is amental issue here (Oops. Damn! I did it again!) you need to re-read the posts and suggest a course of treatment for someone else.

You get from me back, what you throw at me. Argue intelligently and you will get a reasoned response even if I disagree and think your argument is silly. Sling mud around and, well, it's my birthda ... ah ... anniversary today.

Forgive me.

Tom aka XR My degree is in Calcium Anthropology. The study of milkmen.

P.S.
I am a guest in this forum just like everyone else. I only really have to act like a child-care-specialist in my own little corner of DR1. Anything I say out here is for Crisco, Anna, Pib, Hillbilly, Timex, Robert, or the rest to cleanup. Deal with it!

 

[Texas Bill]

COURSE CORRECTION!!!

Porfi, in posting #6, either mistakenly, or in an attempt to interject an additional diversion, quoted a portion of a previous post by the undersigned.

The inference being that I alluded to the "DIA" instead of the mentioned "DEA".

Let it be known that I meant the "Drug Enforcement Agency" and NOT the DIA!

The DEA has been operating for several years (try 20+) in the 'south of the border' area of the world. To some degrees successful and to some degrees unsuccessful. That they run covert ops in the DR is a well known fact of life and they'll readily admit to such. Those ops have the full cooperation of the DR government. We all know that the CIA runs ops in every country of the worls. That's their mandate!! If we had ONLY the host country's input to intellegence matters we would be hamstrung. I might add that such intelligence is shared between governments as relates to them.(That's to keep this thread on the Dominican pathway, BTW).

That the two agencies share their findings ( the latest in cooperation between agencies) is again, a foregone conclusion.

Now, I'm positive that if either of these agencies detected movement cross border they would have reported same and done nothing about it unless it affected their operations per se.

I'll leave the barn door open on that and see what conclusions all you second guessers (me included) can arrive at-----intelligently!!

Texas Bill

 

[XanaduRanch]

Bill, That's Just Mean!

Porfi, in posting #6, either mistakenly, or in an attempt to interject an additional diversion, quoted a portion of a previous post by the undersigned. The inference being that I alluded to the "DIA" instead of the mentioned "DEA".

Are you trying to infer that PR can't tell his DIA from a DEA in the gorund? LMAO!

What constitutes, 'troops' anyway? 900 what? That question goes out to anyone who knows the difference between the words 'Enforcement' and 'Intelligence'. I am not holding my breath.

Tom aka XR Middle age is when broadness of the mind and narrowness of the waist change places.

 

[Texas Bill]

Reference is made to the mention of "Troops" (from the USA) as being in the DR.
I submit, never have I seen 'uniformed' troops of the US Military Establishments (other than at the US Embassy) ANYPLACE in the DR. Since I haven't seen any, I can truthfully deny that any exist!

How-some-ever----- USA expats(and particularly those of us with previous military service) are familiar with the workings of our governments covert operations in foreign ((that is to say, outside the contiginus(never could spell that word) USA)) countries. These operators, necessarily are ones who will fit into the societies they are assigned to. It therefore follows that unless we are personally acquainted with an individual we wouldn't be able to identify one as being 'an American troop', would we??

I won't deny that they are here, I'll merely say that I haven't seen any.

But, 8000, as was originally reported by the periodicals(?), and 900, as reported on this thread(?)????? More like 90 if I know the manner in which these fellows work!!! Hardly a significant figure to be concerned aabout---unless you're one of those they are investigating/pursuing! And when they catch up---Watch Out, your shadow is the last thing you'll see! They don't fool around worrying aabout human rights--you're outa' here. I've known a few over the years and you DON'T WANT TO GET IN THEIR WAY OF DOING THEIR DUTY!!!

Texas Bill

 

[XanaduRanch]

Careful, TB.

I submit, never have I seen 'uniformed' troops of the US Military Establishments (other than at the US Embassy) ANYPLACE in the DR. Since I haven't seen any, I can truthfully deny that any exist! How-some-ever----- USA expats(and particularly those of us with previous military service) are familiar with the workings of our governments covert operations in foreign ((that is to say, outside the contiginus(never could spell that word) USA)) countries. These operators, necessarily are ones who will fit into the societies they are assigned to. It therefore follows that unless we are personally acquainted with an individual we wouldn't be able to identify one as being 'an American troop', would we?? I won't deny that they are here, I'll merely say that I haven't seen any. But, 8000, as was originally reported by the periodicals(?), and 900, as reported on this thread(?)????? More like 90 if I know the manner in which these fellows work!!! Hardly a significant figure to be concerned aabout---unless you're one of those they are investigating/pursuing! And when they catch up---Watch Out, your shadow is the last thing you'll see! They don't fool around worrying aabout human rights--you're outa' here. I've known a few over the years and you DON'T WANT TO GET IN THEIR WAY OF DOING THEIR DUTY!!!

... or Pasha will be knocking at your door. Of course, I know nothing. Nothing! At least, that I can say ... but as Robert says, 'Spot On!'

Tom aka XR A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.

 

[jsizemore]

Wierd Workings

What is great is that anyone that truly knows anything will never say so because if everyone is paranoid about what or where the snake eaters are then it makes them much more effective.
I have no direct or indirect knowlege of what if anything happened with Hati. I do know it is not beyond the US to topple a formor henchman when it was seen as expediant. But I do not doubt that secretly behind the denials the US Government is happy everyone feels that they are able to pull off what is suspected of them. HWether they did it or not of no concern to the Spooks now. Al they worry about is whether everyone thinks they could have done it.
John

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Correction ... Again

COURSE CORRECTION!!!
Porfi, in posting #6, either mistakenly, or in an attempt to interject an additional diversion, quoted a portion of a previous post by the undersigned.
The inference being that I alluded to the "DIA" instead of the mentioned "DEA"...

Whoa, cowboy, that wasn't me. You're starting to read and comprehend as well as XR. Here's the quote:

? Artistide was not harboring "terrorists". What the hell was this, then? Texas speculates CIA and/or DEA. This along with US cooperation in the attempted coup in Venezuela really exposes the Republicans as having an agenda that has little to do with promoting democracy.

It was CES who mentioned "DIA", not me.

As for the troop numbers, 900 was reported not by me originally, but by the Miami Herald and DR1: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4598472.htm;
http://www.dr1.com/news/2002/dnews112602.shtml.

Interestingly, the articles also mention the giant arms shipments to the DR
(I will grant you that the Miami Herald article looked like it was printed almost verbatem from a USIA press release, so whether it was 90, 900 or 9000 and whether they were troops or anything else is anyone's guess.)

Also, for the record, I actually know a Seabee stationed in the DR! And I know what the Seabees and Corp of Engineers actually do in places like Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Columbia and the DR (for the record, the guy I know is not the one who told me). Let's just say that it doesn't exactly show up in the Pentagon budget.

 

[Criss Colon]

Dear "Gabby",don't worry!

I would never close a thread,or delete, a post because I didn't like the content! However,some subjects/content are not discussed on DR1 .Mostly because they are not Dominican related,or promote a World Philosophy such as ,"Socialism",Communism","Capitalisn',"Zionism""Sexism",and a host of other "Isms" that people don't visit DR1 to learn about! (don't forget "Conspiracy Theorists!" Too)Now,that said,The "General Stuff Forum" does play "Hardball",ok,maybe "Softball" now,but it is STILL,"Not for the EASILY offended!!

We allow a little more "Heated" give and Take here.Just try not to go "Back and Forth" just insulting one another,that gets boring really fast! And don't insult someone,and then plead innocents when you get back what you give!Judging by the amount of "hits" here,we have developed an entertaining/informative product.Please remain and remember,this is just a forum on the internet(A GOOD ONE At That!)so don't get your underpants in a knot all the time! May I recommend you visit the "Debates Forum" if you find the "General" to tough! Regards Cris Colon" "MODERATOR" :rambo:

 

[Texas Bill]

Whoa, cowboy, that wasn't me. You're starting to read and comprehend as well as XR. Here's the quote:



It was CES who mentioned "DIA", not me.

As for the troop numbers, 900 was reported not by me originally, but by the Miami Herald and DR1: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4598472.htm;
http://www.dr1.com/news/2002/dnews112602.shtml.

Interestingly, the articles also mention the giant arms shipments to the DR
(I will grant you that the Miami Herald article looked like it was printed almost verbatem from a USIA press release, so whether it was 90, 900 or 9000 and whether they were troops or anything else is anyone's guess.)

Also, for the record, I actually know a Seabee stationed in the DR! And I know what the Seabees and Corp of Engineers actually do in places like Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Columbia and the DR (for the record, the guy I know is not the one who told me). Let's just say that it doesn't exactly show up in the Pentagon budget.

It's just that you ALWAYS end up with an invective about the mean, nasty USA that forces me to pounce upon you (and others that post similarly) like a monstrous frog. Quit doing that and i'll leave you and your comments alone.
And NO, I don't think 'uncle sugar' is completely innocent; what I do think is that he has kept the 'south of the border' countries reasonably free of FAR left leaning governing authorities. If you support such authorities, I really feel sorry for your misplaced ideas.

Texas Bill

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

It's just that you ALWAYS end up with an invective about the mean, nasty USA that forces me to pounce upon you (and others that post similarly) like a monstrous frog.

Your attempts to "pounce upon" me "like a monstrous frog" are not very well directed when you have to misquote me to do it. The point is, I don't misquote you, so please don't misquote me.

Actually, I love the USA. There are two Americans who deserve a lot of credit for creating democracy in the DR. And they are Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton - both of whom supported the democratic process in this country at junctures where it was truly at risk (and both of whom who, unlike the current frat boy, could actually find the DR on a map).

It's this "mean, nasty" administration that I dislike and that I believe only has a veiling interest in democratic values in our hemisphere. Did you hear Roger Noriega testifying about Haiti before Congress today? He wants Congress to believe he's never heard of the place.

This does not bode well for anyone hoping for positive US pressure on Hippo and the JCE in the coming election.

 

[Tony C]

Actually, I love the USA. There are two Americans who deserve a lot of credit for creating democracy in the DR. And they are Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton - both of whom supported the democratic process in this country at junctures where it was truly at risk (and both of whom who, unlike the current frat boy, could actually find the DR on a map).
.

Ok. Now i know you have no clue!
It was the Peanut Farmer and the Perjurer that gave us Aristide in the first place. You remember Aristide don't you? The guy who rigged his re-election and controled his opponents with violence, beatings and death? The former priest who's personal wealth is now estimated at $35 Million? The man who used his thugs to close opposition newspapers and radio stations? The Man who had reporters beaten and murdered.
You just can't handle the fact that Bush's handling of the Haitian situation was a foreign Policy masterstroke! One Despot is gone. Another Despot will not be taking over and 100's if not 1000's of lifes have been spared! Now maybe Democracy has a chance in Haiti.

 

[Chirimoya]

Another Despot will not be taking over and 100's if not 1000's of lifes have been spared! Now maybe Democracy has a chance in Haiti.

I certainly share your hopes there, but what inside info have you got that says that this is a foregone conclusion?

You were twisting Porfi's words there. He was referring to Clinton and Carter in relation to the DR, not Haiti. No US administration is without its foreign policy mistakes, including support for some of history's most charming despots, as long as it fitted in with US interests at the time. Saddam? Noriega? Trujillo? In the case of Aristide at least there was no track record to go on.

Chiri

 

[jsizemore]

you missed a couple

I certainly share your hopes there, but what inside info have you got that says that this is a foregone conclusion?

You were twisting Porfi's words there. He was referring to Clinton and Carter in relation to the DR, not Haiti. No US administration is without its foreign policy mistakes, including support for some of history's most charming despots, as long as it fitted in with US interests at the time. Saddam? Noriega? Trujillo? In the case of Aristide at least there was no track record to go on.

Chiri

Sadam, poppa Doc, babby doc, They were our boys also. My problem more than anything about my own country sticking its nose in is if we feel we are going to stick it in then before we leave we should have a bill of rights similar to our own in place and the population accepting it and expecting it before we leave.
John

 

[Gabriela]

The new improved Baby Doc

Sadam, poppa Doc, babby doc, They were our boys also. My problem more than anything about my own country sticking its nose in is if we feel we are going to stick it in then before we leave we should have a bill of rights similar to our own in place and the population accepting it and expecting it before we leave.
John

I doubt things will improve in Haiti. Today's papers have a story about the New Improved Slimmed Down Baby Doc, and how he might return to power. Seems like a lot of people miss Duvalier. Baby Doc may be the Haitian Balaguer. And he has a least 40 years ahead of him, since it doesn't matter if he becomes blind or deaf. Another leader who will allow Uncle Sam to pull the strings.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

The Point Is ...

Ok. Now i know you have no clue!
It was the Peanut Farmer and the Perjurer that gave us Aristide in the first place...

I'm sorry, but when did I say that I "liked" Aristide??? You guys have really got to start actually reading the posts of the people that your slobbering to "pounce upon" before you pounce.

As Chiri noted, my comment was about the DR and its democratic process. You may not have liked the elected Presidents Guzman or Fernandez, but Carter and Clinton were instrumental in allowing them to take office and in promoting democracy in the DR.

Aristide was democractically elected. The fact is that, after Venezuela and Haiti, the Caribbean community is, once again, (officially, according to joint statments) horrified that the USA is putting short term political interests ahead of the principle of democracy in our region.

And, again, that people like you condone it bodes very poorly for baldy's exit in a democratic fashion while the frat boy is in office.

 

[XanaduRanch]

As Was ...

No US administration is without its foreign policy mistakes, including support for some of history's most charming despots, as long as it fitted in with US interests at the time. Saddam? Noriega? Trujillo?

It is quite illuminating to me that the Soviet Union (Josef Tito, Muhamar Khadafi, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Erich Honecker, Nikolai Cesecasneu, Gamal Abdel-Nassar) the 'People's' Republic of China (Tibet, Kim Jong Il & Junior) Cuba (Angola, Daniel Ortega and the Sandinistas, Hugo Chavez), et. al. and their puppets are ignored and never referenced here by this club of posters.

Folks, the Cold War ended only less than 12 years ago. The reasons the bi-polar world, from both sides took to and supported these despots is self-evident. It's not possible to take a stand and help to toss out a Papa Doc or an Anastasio Somoza when the risk of World Armageddon is hanging over your head.

I lived in those years. I remember times like in a junior high scool classroom in Dubuque, Iowa, during the 1973 Arab-Isaeli war where we discussed where the Soviets were aiming a few 100 megaton nukes to take out Dubuqe's bridges and industries as the U.S. went to Defcon 2. The world came a lot closer to that final outcome than most people realize from the few incidents that have become public knowledge. There were others I discovered later through my work.

You people whining about how one side supported some nasty people in an effort to forestall that nightmare need to get down on your knees and thank whatever idol you pray to that they did what they did. Otherwise you, and your descendants, if they were still around would be nothing more than walking skeletons by now. Principle means little compared to glowing radioactive cities, nuclear winter, and six billion dead. And they'd have been the lucky ones.

Still it's telling that some have such great memories of all of these American puppets that U.S governments turned a blind eye too, but metamorph into 'Mr. (or Mrs.) Short Term Memory' when confronted with the (much, much longer) list of vile creatures not only supported by the other side, but also running the countries of that other half of the world at the time (Josef Stalin, Nikita Kruschev, Fidel Castro, Mao, etc.)

It's a different world now, and the old rules of the cold war don't apply. So it's time for you all to do a little reading and update your arguments for the 21st century. All this is ancient history now and has about as much bearing on why a U.S. administration supports Aristide or invades Iraq as asking what color the sky is before deciding whether to bake an apple pie. None!

Tom aka XR I spilled spot remover on my dog. He's gone now.

 

[Gabriela]

I guess we learned more in New Jersey

Sometime around 1967, most young Americans on the East Coast learned truth is the first casualty of war. And many of us found it odd that there was always a bogey man to justify huge military expenditures and the killing of innocent civilians. Communism served that purpose until 1989. After the fall of communism, by Jesus, Weapons of Mass Destruction turned up in the Middle East. Now Haiti is in chaos, just in time for the Dominican elections. Compared to Haiti the DR looks stable. Amazing coincidence.

 

[jsizemore]

Cold war veteran

Tom I am a person that stood at sea watching Russian bombers fly over a battle group while F-4s were on their tail and Migs were on the F-4 tails and F-14s were on the migs tails in the Pacific all the while we were being lit up with targeting radar.
I in no way have a problem with the fact that my government which I still serve has supported less than clean people in the past for a political end. I just acknowlege that the leftover emotions of the former pawns is there and rightfully so.
It is hard thing for someone who is proud of their country to feel somehow second rate by having the US say yes JR you may hold an election now.
Justlike during WW2 we put the Mafia in charge of Italy as we pushed out the Facist because it was easier to let them be the local government. 60 years later we still sufer from that decision.
As far as Aristede goes he was not put back in power by the US for democratic reasons. It was to have an excuse to repatriate all the Hation boat people we had a Gitmo. It was an imigration issue.
John

 

[Chirimoya]

Enough with the hystorionics!

XR I was stating facts. Not making judgements. I am no stranger to realpolitik. Or 20th century history. Au contraire. It merely amused me that Tony C is so scandalised by Aristide's excesses while presumably approving of other leaders who turned out to be less than perfect, also supported by the US.

Tito and Ceaucescu (correct spelling) at least had many friends in the west. The East/West divide was never as black and white as that.

Why can't we look at this question in a more detached way?

Chiri