Abortion rights in the DR?

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KyleMackey

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Legal abortion is trashy:

The litter-strewn streets of Singapore and the Nordic countries can't compare to the cleanliness found in the streets and modern thoroughfares in the province of Santo Domingo East. Somehow, the devil, Satan himself, has punished those countries with unsanitary conditions. That will "learn them."

This little ditty should break some hearts in Har-barba-coa: Ayn Rand believed that abortion was a moral right, better left to the sole discretion of the woman involved. She referred to the claims of a fetus having a life a "vicious nonsense."
Did you mean Sanger and not Rand?
 

D'Arcy (Apostropheman)

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Apr 10, 2022
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What nonsense!


CALIFORNIA
False claims about California abortion-related bill spread thousands of times on social media
The Twitter logo on a digital device
Disinformation about California’s AB 2223 has gone viral online. (Gregory Bull / Associated Press)
BY JUSTIN RAYSTAFF WRITER
MAY 5, 2022 6:30 AM PT
Good morning, and welcome to the Essential California newsletter. It’s Thursday, May 5. I’m Justin Ray.

As The Times has reported, California intends to become a haven for those seeking reproductive health care in America if the U.S. Supreme Court’s leaked draft opinion overturning Roe vs. Wade becomes the law of the land. This may make the state a target, as it has been in the past for its progressive laws on immigration, the environment and other policy areas.

One way that people can attack the state is through misinformation and disinformation. A misinterpretation of a California bill has already gone viral online.

The misinformation appears to have originated from multiple questionable websites that published stories claiming that California bill AB 2223 legalizes infanticide. One site said it would “legalize the murder of children up to nine months gestation and in the week(s) after birth.”

The false claims have been posted and reshared thousands of times on Twitter with language such as, “California introduces bill to legalize infanticide before and after birth”; “Killing babies up to 28 days old!”; and “An abortion bill that will essentially legalize a form of infanticide.” (When asked for a response to the tweets, Twitter said the posts were “not found to be in violation of the Twitter Rules,” adding that “our misinformation policies apply to COVID-19, civic integrity and synthetic and manipulated media.”)

What does the bill actually do?

The bill, which you can read here, removes the requirement that a coroner has to investigate “deaths related to or following known or suspected self-induced or criminal abortion.” The bill prohibits using a coroner’s statements on the certificate of fetal death “to establish, bring, or support a criminal prosecution or civil cause of damages against any person.”

“Basically the whole point is we want to make sure that if you do experience a miscarriage, if you experience a stillbirth, if you experience a self-induced abortion, you have a self-induced abortion, that you are not criminally prosecuted for that,” said Assemblywoman Buffy Wicks, the Democrat representing the East Bay and one of the bill’s sponsors. But it still allows authorities “to be able to investigate the facts of a newborn child’s death, including whether the child was born living and when and how the child died.”

She brought up two recent cases in the state that prompted the bill: Chelsea Becker, a Central Valley woman who was charged with murder after delivering a stillborn baby who tested positive for methamphetamine (a judge dismissed the charge last May); and Adora Perez, who was sentenced to 11 years in prison for “manslaughter of a fetus.” (The sentence was overturned in March.)

“Those are the types of things we’re trying to stop, especially when we now live in an era of ‘Handmaid’s Tale’ where, who knows what’s happening?” Wicks said. “You look at the examples of Chelsea and Adora in California in the year 2022. We actually do have to put in statutes to ensure that women are protected in these circumstances.”

The section that appears to have caused controversy states, “Notwithstanding any other law, a person shall not be subject to civil or criminal liability or penalty, or otherwise deprived of their rights, based on their actions or omissions with respect to their pregnancy or actual, potential, or alleged pregnancy outcome, including miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion, or perinatal death.”

The word “perinatal” seems to have sparked the misinformation. The section was amended on April 6 to read “perinatal death due to a pregnancy-related cause.” Wicks says, “Anti-abortion activists are peddling an absurd and disingenuous argument that this bill is about killing newborns, when ironically, the part of the bill they’re pointing to is about protecting and supporting parents experiencing the grief of pregnancy loss.”

Wicks says this legislation is one of the ways the state is preparing to help women in America access reproductive care.

“What we will not do in California is sit back while the rest of the nation is experiencing what they’re experiencing,” Wicks said. “What we’re going to do is make sure that we’re ready for the 1.4 million women that we expect to come to California.”

Education sometimes becomes synonymous with a lack of faith in a higher being, I dispute that, as there are many highly educated religious scholars and people of all faiths. But certainly perhaps the lower educated believe in God at a higher percentage. And DR is not a higher educated country.

What abortion boils down too is the question of are you ending a human life, or not and when does that occur ?
Certainly I think that is what heartbeat type laws are designed for. If a heart is beating is there a living being. Certainly something is growing and moving.
It seems worldwide this is where the final outcome will be. It will be allowed only for some number of weeks post insemination.

It is a tricky question and some argue they be allowed to be able to abort the child up to and some even up to 28-days after the birth - if you can digest that. ? A show of hands.


But no one here has cheered the murders of innocents we see in Ukraine. We all condemn killing of the young and old, too weak and defenseless against vicious aggressors.
And no one here would admit to being in favor of murder of someone that has done them no harm.

So the Dominicans should decide when life begins.
Not Europeans, nor North Americans, or any foreigner can come here and enforce our view or faith wherever we travel.
It is not like arguing that litter is wrong, it is tied to much more engrained feelings and one's believe in a higher being, or lack thereof.

We all cringe when the Jehovah Witnesses try to come to our door to convert us to their faith, so why is it any different than Westerners trying to impose their version of agnosticism or 'special circumstances' regarding abortion for women here.

Let's just butt out or we are no better than the Spaniard Conquistadors who forced conversion to Catholicism on all of Latin America, very often under threat of death.

And it may be ironic that the Soviet Union was the first entity to legalize abortion in 1920, under Lenin. It ended in 1936. Now it is allowed in Russia up to 12 weeks.​

 

AlterEgo

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Jan 9, 2009
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What nonsense!


CALIFORNIA
False claims about California abortion-related bill spread thousands of times on social media
The Twitter logo on a digital device
Disinformation about California’s AB 2223 has gone viral online. (Gregory Bull / Associated Press)
BY JUSTIN RAYSTAFF WRITER
MAY 5, 2022 6:30 AM PT
Good morning, and welcome to the Essential California newsletter. It’s Thursday, May 5. I’m Justin Ray.

As The Times has reported, California intends to become a haven for those seeking reproductive health care in America if the U.S. Supreme Court’s leaked draft opinion overturning Roe vs. Wade becomes the law of the land. This may make the state a target, as it has been in the past for its progressive laws on immigration, the environment and other policy areas.

One way that people can attack the state is through misinformation and disinformation. A misinterpretation of a California bill has already gone viral online.

The misinformation appears to have originated from multiple questionable websites that published stories claiming that California bill AB 2223 legalizes infanticide. One site said it would “legalize the murder of children up to nine months gestation and in the week(s) after birth.”

The false claims have been posted and reshared thousands of times on Twitter with language such as, “California introduces bill to legalize infanticide before and after birth”; “Killing babies up to 28 days old!”; and “An abortion bill that will essentially legalize a form of infanticide.” (When asked for a response to the tweets, Twitter said the posts were “not found to be in violation of the Twitter Rules,” adding that “our misinformation policies apply to COVID-19, civic integrity and synthetic and manipulated media.”)

What does the bill actually do?

The bill, which you can read here, removes the requirement that a coroner has to investigate “deaths related to or following known or suspected self-induced or criminal abortion.” The bill prohibits using a coroner’s statements on the certificate of fetal death “to establish, bring, or support a criminal prosecution or civil cause of damages against any person.”

“Basically the whole point is we want to make sure that if you do experience a miscarriage, if you experience a stillbirth, if you experience a self-induced abortion, you have a self-induced abortion, that you are not criminally prosecuted for that,” said Assemblywoman Buffy Wicks, the Democrat representing the East Bay and one of the bill’s sponsors. But it still allows authorities “to be able to investigate the facts of a newborn child’s death, including whether the child was born living and when and how the child died.”

She brought up two recent cases in the state that prompted the bill: Chelsea Becker, a Central Valley woman who was charged with murder after delivering a stillborn baby who tested positive for methamphetamine (a judge dismissed the charge last May); and Adora Perez, who was sentenced to 11 years in prison for “manslaughter of a fetus.” (The sentence was overturned in March.)

“Those are the types of things we’re trying to stop, especially when we now live in an era of ‘Handmaid’s Tale’ where, who knows what’s happening?” Wicks said. “You look at the examples of Chelsea and Adora in California in the year 2022. We actually do have to put in statutes to ensure that women are protected in these circumstances.”

The section that appears to have caused controversy states, “Notwithstanding any other law, a person shall not be subject to civil or criminal liability or penalty, or otherwise deprived of their rights, based on their actions or omissions with respect to their pregnancy or actual, potential, or alleged pregnancy outcome, including miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion, or perinatal death.”

The word “perinatal” seems to have sparked the misinformation. The section was amended on April 6 to read “perinatal death due to a pregnancy-related cause.” Wicks says, “Anti-abortion activists are peddling an absurd and disingenuous argument that this bill is about killing newborns, when ironically, the part of the bill they’re pointing to is about protecting and supporting parents experiencing the grief of pregnancy loss.”

Wicks says this legislation is one of the ways the state is preparing to help women in America access reproductive care.

“What we will not do in California is sit back while the rest of the nation is experiencing what they’re experiencing,” Wicks said. “What we’re going to do is make sure that we’re ready for the 1.4 million women that we expect to come to California.”
As promised in Post#9, see you in a month.
 
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mountainannie

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..."Until October 2012, women could come forward for treatment without fear of being arrested.[3] Dr. Milton Cordero has been working since 1980 in the Republic's public hospitals, treating women who have abortions; he estimates that there are 90,000 illegal abortions per year. These illegal abortions are self-induced or done by a back-alley practitioner. Since the law was passed, abortion has risen to the third leading cause of maternal death in the country.[4][5]"...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Dominican_Republic
 

NanSanPedro

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..."Until October 2012, women could come forward for treatment without fear of being arrested.[3] Dr. Milton Cordero has been working since 1980 in the Republic's public hospitals, treating women who have abortions; he estimates that there are 90,000 illegal abortions per year. These illegal abortions are self-induced or done by a back-alley practitioner. Since the law was passed, abortion has risen to the third leading cause of maternal death in the country.[4][5]"...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Dominican_Republic

If that indeed is the case, I would hope they change the law to hold the doctors liable, not the women. That's horrible to hold a scared woman liable for that.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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Legal abortion is trashy:

The litter-strewn streets of Singapore and the Nordic countries can't compare to the cleanliness found in the streets and modern thoroughfares in the province of Santo Domingo East. Somehow, the devil, Satan himself, has punished those countries with unsanitary conditions. That will "learn them."

This little ditty should break some hearts in Har-barba-coa: Ayn Rand believed that abortion was a moral right, better left to the sole discretion of the woman involved. She referred to the claims of a fetus having a life a "vicious nonsense."
So I am guess you believe in the rest of her philosopy.
 

Ecoman1949

Born to Ride.
Oct 17, 2015
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If that indeed is the case, I would hope they change the law to hold the doctors liable, not the women. That's horrible to hold a scared woman liable for that.
The article is about illegal abortions performed by people not trained to do the procedures and the resulting increase in female deaths. It’s not about doctors performing abortions. Women are dying needlessly because of a lack of access to proper abortion procedures.
 

NanSanPedro

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Apr 12, 2019
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The article is about illegal abortions performed by people not trained to do the procedures and the resulting increase in female deaths. It’s not about doctors performing abortions. Women are dying needlessly because of a lack of access to proper abortion procedures.
I understand that. What I am advocating for is not holding the women liable. They should hold the doctors liable for the illegal abortions.
 

Ecoman1949

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I understand that. What I am advocating for is not holding the women liable. They should hold the doctors liable for the illegal abortions.
No. You don’t understand. The doctors in the DR are not performing illegal abortions. Untrained people are performing back street abortions and women are self inducing their abortions. An average of 90,000 botched abortions annually resulting in an increase in the number of female deaths annually.
 

Ecoman1949

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I understand that. What I am advocating for is not holding the women liable. They should hold the doctors liable for the illegal abortions.
You can’t hold physicians legally responsible if they are abiding by the government laws. The government is responsible for the increase in female deaths due to botched abortions. Women turn to these desperate measures and risk their lives because of a lack of access to legal medical abortions.
 
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Lucifer

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So I am guess you believe in the rest of her philosopy.
Yeah. Sure.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."​

 

NanSanPedro

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Apr 12, 2019
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No. You don’t understand. The doctors in the DR are not performing illegal abortions. Untrained people are performing back street abortions and women are self inducing their abortions. An average of 90,000 botched abortions annually resulting in an increase in the number of female deaths annuall
Then hold those untrained people accountable.
 

NotLurking

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Two things that will reduce the need for abortions:
1) Abstinence (i.e. women don't open your legs when it involves a man unless you are ready for the consequence)
2) Failing #1 have the man use a condom. (i.e. compulsory just like mask wearing with covid-19)
 
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El Hijo de Manolo

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Two things that will reduce the need for abortions:
1) Abstinence (i.e. women don't open your legs when it involves a man unless you are ready for the consequence)
2) Failing #1 have the man use a condom. (i.e. compulsory just like mask wearing with covid-19)
You do realize we are talking about Dominicans, right?
 

bob saunders

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Yeah. Sure.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."​

Got a quote of you own. Read the whole series, still own it. Lord of the Rings is entertainment, Rand's book are philosophical in nature. You should like Rand, she has a better command of the English language than most native speakers, by far.
 
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bob saunders

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Two things that will reduce the need for abortions:
1) Abstinence (i.e. women don't open your legs when it involves a man unless you are ready for the consequence)
2) Failing #1 have the man use a condom. (i.e. compulsory just like mask wearing with covid-19)
They sell about twenty different kinds, they obviously use them.
 

Ecoman1949

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Then hold those untrained people accountable.
The police can barely enforce traffic and criminal laws in the country. It’s unrealistic to think they will spend the resources to pursue and charge back street abortionists. The problem is self perpetuating. Many pregnant women with no access to legal abortion will continue to resort to life threatening desperate means to end their pregnancies. Back room abortionists will always be there to meet the demand.
 
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NotLurking

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They sell about twenty different kinds, they obviously use them.
Yes but apparently not as much as they should as 'Maternidad de Los Mina' is chuck full of birthing people (I don't want to offend pregnant men) couple that with the 90k abortions mentioned in an article referenced in this thread and clearly more of 1 & 2 of my previous post must be practiced and much less illegal boutique birth control.

Abortion is like everything in life, a choice. In some cases a difficult but illegal choice here in DR that has consequences of which one is the death penalty of an unsuspecting life and on occasion the death by choice of the pregnant person. Make no mistake what we are discussing here is death with no joyous outcome at least for the one given the death penalty in violation of Article 37 of the Dominican constitution which clearly states:

Dominican Constitution
Article 37. Right to life
The right to life is inviolable from conception until death. The death penalty may not be
established, pronounced, nor applied in any case.
 

chico bill

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There are only a handful of countries that allow unrestricted abortion, even though some here have claimed it to be unfettered in Europe - they were wrong.
The countries are Canada, North Korea, China and certain states in the US (Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont an DC).
So it seems the first trimester is the most accepted norm and I would think if a law were ever passed in DR it would come with such restrictions.

This allows a woman alone, or her & mate (or paramour) to decide early. 3 months should be time to decide which path to take.
After that it seems most countries agree, at least by regulation, it is infanticide.

Are murders in DR which also takes the life of a pregnant woman's child prosecuted as double homicide ?
 
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