Along the same line as Mr. Lu's post - another privilige lost!

[Golo100]

Let me say this folks. Take Boca Chica for example. I truly like Boca Chica. When I feel like I need a little touch of "pueblo"(people feeling Dominican style) there is nothing better than Boca Chica. BC is the true Dominican beach. The one that reflects what DR is all about:sex, corruption,fun,beautiful sands, warm knee high water,coconuts, stray dogs, street vendors(which I hate not because of their merchandise, but because of their selling tactics)prostitution, cheap and expensive prices,noise, street brawls, bad food but fun to eat, and so on.
But then you'll notice that Boca Chica has two different worlds. There is sort of a Berlin wall that separates the rift raft from tourists and Dominicans with better taste and behavior. On the east side of the beach dominated mostly by waterfron hotels and restaurants is Boca Chica's priviledged. Those who can afford to pay for chaise lounges, tables and chairs and can pay for what they consume. This is the area I always stay. It is peaceful within reason. You can actually enjoy the beach and girls in bikinis with no problems. You see beautiful people. Great friendly tourists make your day. I meet many an Englishman or Italian and talk about all kinds of stuff and share drinks.
This selective area(not segregated by any means except that somehow people there behave) is in existence thanks to private ownership. It is regulated within reason by the owners, Politur and the people itself.
Then there is the West side of the beach. The "Dominican side". This is tigueraje at its best. This is beach anarchy. Dirty. disorganized. no rules. free for all. girls show their bikinis at their own risk. free grab ass. If you step on my foot I slap you in the face. no swimming rules. the beach is your toilet.we buy no services, we bring it. cooking in the beach.no garbage cans or bags.Politur is afraid to go in there. bring your own pet or dog to do it in the beach.glass bottles allowed. bring and show your guns and knives. This is no-man's land. So much for the public beach argument.
ALL IN THE SAME BEACH!!! Which one do you prefer? NOUGH SAID!!!

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Something is happening in the DR....people are ****ed off and organizing. Something I thought was just a dream. This beach thing seems to be the catalyst, although other articles in the revision of the constitution have more importance in my mind. The protest scheduled for Friday urging folks to wear swimwear should be very interesting. Golo 100 get your speedo's out of mothball and ride.:cheeky:

 

[Lambada]

Then, what are the 10 constitutional liberties that are being spoken of?

We have article 30 on the abortion issue
Then there is the issue of denying public access to the beaches
Then the issue that a citizen cannot bring a suit on the inconstituionality of a given law

Then it gets fuzzy for me...

thanks

Has anyone responded to this yet? Have a look here where some of them are spelled out, mountainannie

Morir So?ando: YO NO ME QUEDO CALLAD@

And just FYI
Encuentro Cultural Contra El Retroceso Constitucional, Defiende TUS derechos!!! Rock Dominicano

 

[Golo100]

I believe you guys are dreaming. What groundswell? I don't see it. Its just smoke. When will people realize how politics is done im DR. First you upset everybody with outrageous ideas(put into laws, decrees, or regulations) and just sit and wait. The suckers will then come out screaming and the politicians will then take a heroic stand and retreat, but only to the point where they always wanted to be. Everybody is happy and Dominicans go back and reelect them again using the musical chair system. No way I'm putting my bathing suit on. I don't sweat for no cause. This whole society is rotten to the bone.o

 

[Chirimoya]

Golo, you definitely have a point - they did this with the artificial island so that the Metro wouldn't seem so outrageous in comparison. Let's see what happens.

Here is a commentary about the beach issue that some here will appreciate:

Ciudades y Playas sin ?chopos? :: CLAVE digital m?vil

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Herewith thought of President of Caribbean Hotels and Tourism Association, presumably in between Sun Village hearings.............
Puerto Plata Digital

In that article the President of Caribbean Hotels and Tourism Association says the following....

Los asamble?stas, plante?, deben ser ?congratulados por la aprobaci?n del texto del art?culo 13 de la nueva Constituci?n relativo al car?cter de dominio p?blico de las playas, respetando la propiedad privada?

Article 13 of the projected new constitution says...

Art?culo 13. La ciudad de Santo Domingo es la capital de la Rep?blica y el asiento del gobierno nacional.

It talks about Santo Domingo being the capital and the seat of the national government. Nothing to do with beaches. Typo error or just the incompetence of the people in the top.

Texto completo del proyecto de reforma constitucional :: Politica :: DiarioDigitalRD.com - Noticias Republica Dominicana

 

[minerva_feliz]

Other options than taking beach away from public...

There are better, more long-term and more sustainable solutions to issues at the beaches when the [sometimes] lesser-educated/aware population is present than telling them they can't even go to the beach at all. I say sometimes because, guess what, there are Dominicans who abhor loud music, littering and conning others. They are law-abiding, self-respecting people who deserve access to the beaches of their homeland.

First, in terms of solutions, I'll bet there are already plenty of public order-type laws in place to address most things, but they just aren't enforced. WAKE UP POLITUR. Hire more of them, and make them do their job...really. Fine people, kick them out, do not let them return, confiscate their stuff, do whatever. And not just enforcement, education. Have campaigns about certain issues and help people understand how what they do can negatively affect them and tourism in their country.

Second, infrastructure and sanitation. This probably should already be handled by the Ayuntamiento (City Hall). In some cases it is, better than others. They should work with Medio Ambiente to install proper waste receptacles, pick up trash (there should be less after some environmental awareness campaigns and tough love from POLITUR). They should build and maintain public bathrooms, keep animal populations under control. They should build vendor stands and people should only be allowed to operate if the have a stand. The vendors should have to pay a small rent to use the stands, just as they do in the public marketplaces.

Third, work with locals, not against them. Get them on board, and give them a chance to earn an honest and decent living. Organize vendors into unions/sindicatos. Teach them about other cultures and languages. Only authorized ones with shirts/visors/nametags can sell things. And they have rules about health/sanitation and not harassing people. They mess up too many times, they lose their right to be a vendor.

I have seen all of these things to varying degrees at beaches throughout the DR. Maybe I'm an idealist for thinking that with all of my ideas, people could swim in harmony at the beach. It might take time to change the general public's mentality about littering or loud music, but it's possible. Besides, who am I to say that I own the place, and that I have more right to it because I have more money? If I don't like it, I can deal with it, suggest changes, be a part of the change, or leave/not come at all.

 

[NALs]

Is damn if you do, damn if you don't. The Hamaca had no walls during Trujillo, but "the force" was there with you so you could behave on the beach. Today with all this "libertinaje" our beaches have been taken over by the goons. But then we want American and Europeans with dollars/euros so "padres de familias" could harass them on the beach and sell them their useless crafts and cheap art, snail and shrimp, overpriced coconut water and yanikekes. The beaches don't belong to all Dominicans. Only to those who have a title to beachfront property. There's plenty of public beaches for the proletariat. I never saw a Dominican swimming in Bavaro and Punta Cana when they were public land. Now that developers made them pretty and took sea urchins and
Algae out the proletariat wants in. Screw them. You want pretty sand? Pay for it. People have to pay at the Sands Point beach in Long Island! Pay the hotels a fee or buy their drinks. They made the beaches. The only reason Boca Chica is not a pig farm is because the hotels cleaned it up. Dominicans are the scum of the earth on beach behavior with their spaghetti and bread picnics on the beach and drinking from Brugal bottles they use to crack heads.

That's what I was thinking.

Does everyone needs to go to Playa Dorada? What is wrong with Playa Long Beach, which will remain public by virtue of not having a single private property next to it. Plus, its right in Puerto Plata within walking distance to perhaps most of Puerto Plata's province population and was recently 'enhanced' with new white sand! :surprised

Does everyone needs to visit the section of Bavaro Beach in front of the Paradisus Palma Real resort, when the section in front of the Cortecito village will obviously remain open to the public by virtue of El Cortecito being a village open to everyone?

Does everyone needs to be at the 23% of beaches currently used for tourism when 77% of all beaches are free from such activity and thus, will remain free from privatization?

I think people are making a big fuss out of something that is so small and relatively insignificant.

However, on the things that a fuss should be made, those things will remain completely ignored by just about everyone.

Typical Dominican (masses) reaction.

"Oh no, they are taking our beaches away!"

23% of beaches doesn't equal 100%. So what exactly is going on, or better yet, who is manipulating whom in this ordeal?

 

[Mr. Lu]

True...

I think people are making a big fuss out of something that is so small and relatively insignificant.

However, on the things that a fuss should be made, those things will remain completely ignored by just about everyone.

Typical Dominican (masses) reaction.

"Oh no, they are taking our beaches away!"

You make a valid point. Swimming at the beach seems more important than the fact we have no power....but a start, is a start.


Mr. Lu

 

[mountainannie]

stats?

Nals-- where did you find those stats on the 23% of the beaches being private?

I was reading somewhere that there is a protest on this in Andreas -- next to Boca Chica, which is CERTAINLY a very Dominican little beach place,... They are afraid that the area will be taken over by the Club Nautico, which is a private marina for the rica Capitalenos....

Having seen how the Ayunamentos tend to sell the public land into private hands, is there anything that would prevent them from doing this all over the country? (anyone who lived in Las Terrenas can see that there is no parkland, no public space that was not sold off)

I mean, if ALL beaches could become private property with no rights of access for the people, does this not open the way for much more privatization?

Just by way of contrast to this, in Mexico, a foreigner cannot own property within 50 miles of the coast but can only hold a lifelong lease.

The point that Conchman made about the Bahamas.. about having the right of access up to the high water mark is also the law, I believe, in most
states in the US. Certainly in New England, but there the tides are 8 to 12 feet so that is really a public access route. Here the tides are only a foot or two so that sort of guarantee is not much.

It is also true that most beaches in the US are either private or owned and maintained by the municipalities who charge money for either entrance or parking -- to support the cost of maintenance.

Aside from Bahia de las Aquilas, and Isla Saona and Catalina, are there other areas which are NATIONALLY protected?

I know that there is a law which says that one cannot construct anything within 60 meters of the beach ... but with this new change, how will that be enforced?

 

[mountainannie]

Coalition building

As to who is organizing this opposition... and why they are focused.. from what I can discern, this is building on the coalition that came together first over the abortion issue, then over Los Haities, and has, at its core, some very serious actors who are very concerned about the rise of a "political class" -- the deals that are and have been made between the two parties and their general attempts to maintain themselves in power and use the public funds for their own benefit.

The more subtle points of protest... that legislators no longer need to reveal their personal financials, that there is no longer a restriction on employing friends, etc, that the legislators are no longer independent but subject to party power, that the State has the power to determine what is "true", that there can be a continuous reelection of those in power on a rotating basis, that the power of the independent judiciary is being threatened, --these points are probably considered a bit too subtle to garner mass protest. So they focus their opposition on issues that will perhaps indeed arouse the citizens.

In talking with various actors, I have the impression that this opposition is indeed new .. that it is a coalition of students, intellectuals, private individuals with resources, and feminists which has not been seen before in this country. It appears to be searching for a way to curb the generalized corruption of the political class here.

 

[Golo100]

Chirimoya, that article reflects what I stated but from the other point of view. I get a kick out of her statement that the chopos never get their due even though politicians depend on them for votes. How true that is. This is why I need my "Revenge Against the Chopos". The chopos have taken over the country with their vote. They have taken almost every senatorial and camara de diputados spot. Most legislators are chopos. Most government officials are chopos.
Take CDEEE. Who was their head?? Who manages the office of Obras del Estado? Who built the Metro? All chopos. The political parties are headed mostly by chopos. What else do they want? They have it all. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Private property is the ultimate ideal of any constitution, along with freedom of speech.
Who uses and owns all the rivers and balnearios? Chopos. They have the mountains and are destroying them for conucos. The chopos are destroying Los Haitises. You can't go to any park for a quiet afternoon because the chopos are blasting our ears with their bachata. They build colmadones in the best sectors, Piantini, Bella Vista, Anacaona, El Vergel.
They sell Yanikekes everywhere. Their vegetable and fruit trucks with loudspeakers are invading the quietest neighborhoods.
This senator Williams of SPM who has not been to a session in congress and works mostly out his medicaid funded office in New York 100% of the times...what is he? Another chopo who can do as he pleases in the senate. Chopos are taking over cash machines. You can't go anywhere to draw money without a line of chopo employees. Why don't they have cash machines for people who have savings accounts and credit cards so we don't have to wait in line for a chopo who is cashing all of his friends' pay?
Chopos took over Plaza Central years ago. Now they're invading the Acropolis. I remember I could drive my car on Saturday nights on Lincoln Avenue. Chopos now took it over. They drink, have sex and blast the area with their chopo music. There is no place to hide anymore, except Bavaro, Punta Cana and Casa De Campo. But now, even there. They have taken over Mang?. Oh my God I am staying home to watch SKY cable. I love it. It only has one chopo channel 171. The rest are either in foreign languages and with themes for intelligent people. Sorry DR1 chopos! No offense
ANTICHOPO

 

[ExtremeR]

Chirimoya, that article reflects what I stated but from the other point of view. I get a kick out of her statement that the chopos never get their due even though politicians depend on them for votes. How true that is. This is why I need my "Revenge Against the Chopos". The chopos have taken over the country with their vote. They have taken almost every senatorial and camara de diputados spot. Most legislators are chopos. Most government officials are chopos.
Take CDEEE. Who was their head?? Who manages the office of Obras del Estado? Who built the Metro? All chopos. The political parties are headed mostly by chopos. What else do they want? They have it all. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Private property is the ultimate ideal of any constitution, along with freedom of speech.
Who uses and owns all the rivers and balnearios? Chopos. They have the mountains and are destroying them for conucos. The chopos are destroying Los Haitises. You can't go to any park for a quiet afternoon because the chopos are blasting our ears with their bachata. They build colmadones in the best sectors, Piantini, Bella Vista, Anacaona, El Vergel.
They sell Yanikekes everywhere. Their vegetable and fruit trucks with loudspeakers are invading the quietest neighborhoods.
This senator Williams of SPM who has not been to a session in congress and works mostly out his medicaid funded office in New York 100% of the times...what is he? Another chopo who can do as he pleases in the senate. Chopos are taking over cash machines. You can't go anywhere to draw money without a line of chopo employees. Why don't they have cash machines for people who have savings accounts and credit cards so we don't have to wait in line for a chopo who is cashing all of his friends' pay?
Chopos took over Plaza Central years ago. Now they're invading the Acropolis. I remember I could drive my car on Saturday nights on Lincoln Avenue. Chopos now took it over. They drink, have sex and blast the area with their chopo music. There is no place to hide anymore, except Bavaro, Punta Cana and Casa De Campo. But now, even there. They have taken over Mang?. Oh my God I am staying home to watch SKY cable. I love it. It only has one chopo channel 171. The rest are either in foreign languages and with themes for intelligent people. Sorry DR1 chopos! No offense
ANTICHOPO

This post goes in the same line of this song :cheeky::cheeky:

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[cobraboy]

In talking with various actors, I have the impression that this opposition is indeed new .. that it is a coalition of students, intellectuals, private individuals with resources, and feminists which has not been seen before in this country. It appears to be searching for a way to curb the generalized corruption of the political class here.

I doubt those groups would make even a 10% voting block.

And with all the commotion many made about Moreno in 2008, he got less than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.

Foreigners complaing about their pet "issues" doesn't hardly register on the vox populi in the DR, for better or worse.

A few free chickens and the PRD/PLD cabal scores another 94% of the vote.

 

[Lambada]

In talking with various actors, I have the impression that this opposition is indeed new .. that it is a coalition of students, intellectuals, private individuals with resources, and feminists which has not been seen before in this country. It appears to be searching for a way to curb the generalized corruption of the political class here.

I'm just back from the rather snifty hair salon I go to and the ladies there were discussing this. Their view went beyond the search to curb the corruption of the political classes: they saw as also significant the electricity meter protest, the reaction to it, the possibility that the IMF agreement will lead to reduction in government payroll and even more expensive electricity, alongside things like the transport strike, economic downturn and unemployment. Their view was that we are in for a period of........let's call it social destabilisation.

 

[mountainannie]

oops

I doubt those groups would make even a 10% voting block.

And with all the commotion many made about Moreno in 2008, he got less than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.

Foreigners complaing about their pet "issues" doesn't hardly register on the vox populi in the DR, for better or worse.

A few free chickens and the PRD/PLD cabal scores another 94% of the vote.

I forgot to mention the major unions

so if you add in the Teamster's here who can shut the entire country down overnight

then what would you give them?

add in the musicians... the artists.... the beach vendors... and everyone who ever ate a pot of pasta on the playa

 

[NALs]

Nals-- where did you find those stats on the 23% of the beaches being private?

Well, first I went to the CIA web page to get the exact length of the Dominican coast (1,288 km).

Then I logged into Google Earth, devoted approximately 2 hours to zooming in on Pepillo Salcedo, Montecristi; combed the entire coast from there all the way down to Pedernales. Measured every single inch of beach next to every resort/villa visible.

The result per province of beachfront currently next to property developed for touristic purposes:

Puerto Plata: 14.26 km

Mar?a Trinidad S?nchez: 2.06 km (almost all of it being Playa Grande)

Saman?: 10.15 km

Altagracia: 37.86 km (almost 20 km are the beaches of B?varo & 2.74 km in Bayahibe)

La Romana: 0.78 km (all of it in Casa de Campo)

San Pedro: 9.98 km (9.15 km being Juan Dolio)

Santo Domingo: 0.90 km (all of it being resort fronted sections of Boca Chica)

San Crist?bal: 1.29 km

Peravia: 5.07 km

Azua: 8.82 km (the bulk being villas covering almost the entire eastern coast of Ocoa Bay).

Total for country: +/- 91.17 km of beach dedicated to tourism.

The coasts of Montecristi, Espaillat, El Seybo, Hato Mayor, Barahona and Pedernales are practically devoid of tourism, whether its resorts or villas of any kind.

Its common knowledge that the DR has around 400 kilometers of beaches, thus the 23% estimate.

 

[cobraboy]

I forgot to mention the major unions

so if you add in the Teamster's here who can shut the entire country down overnight

then what would you give them?

add in the musicians... the artists.... the beach vendors... and everyone who ever ate a pot of pasta on the playa

I'd be surprised if the "major unions" aren't as corrupt as the Big 2-3 political parties, and they aren't in line, hand extended, with them.

 

[mountainannie]

not all beaches are equal

Well, first I went to the CIA web page to get the exact length of the Dominican coast (1,288 km).

Then I logged into Google Earth, devoted approximately 2 hours to zooming in on Pepillo Salcedo, Montecristi; combed the entire coast from there all the way down to Pedernales. Measured every single inch of beach next to every resort/villa visible.

The result per province of beachfront currently next to property developed for touristic purposes:

Puerto Plata: 14.26 km

Mar?a Trinidad S?nchez: 2.06 km (almost all of it being Playa Grande)

Saman?: 10.15 km

Altagracia: 37.86 km (almost 20 km are the beaches of B?varo & 2.74 km in Bayahibe)

La Romana: 0.78 km (all of it in Casa de Campo)

San Pedro: 9.98 km (9.15 km being Juan Dolio)

Santo Domingo: 0.90 km (all of it being resort fronted sections of Boca Chica)

San Crist?bal: 1.29 km

Peravia: 5.07 km

Azua: 8.82 km (the bulk being villas covering almost the entire eastern coast of Ocoa Bay).

Total for country: +/- 91.17 km of beach dedicated to tourism.

The coasts of Montecristi, Espaillat, El Seybo, Hato Mayor, Barahona and Pedernales are practically devoid of tourism, whether its resorts or villas of any kind.

Its common knowledge that the DR has around 400 kilometers of beaches, thus the 23% estimate.

That is impressive work, Nals. But unfortunately not all beaches are equal.

Google earth cannot swim.

The north coast beaches from Monti Christi to Luperon or so may be nice sand but the water stays about calf deep for what seem to be miles... except at El Moro which has a wicked undertow and crashing waves. Monte Christi is more like a salt flat--- there is a lovely beach at Pepe Salcido but it is shallow.

And the beaches of the south west - except for Cabo Rojo and Bahia- are rocky. Not really "beaches" as we use the term but merely coastline. One of the most popular "Dominican" beaches for Capitalenos is Najayo which does not have great swimming.. in that it is shallow, not reef protected, and has only a very small swimming area.

So while your study may be accurate on paper, it has little basis in reality.

Every beach is different. There are a few really great beaches in Las Terrenas and when you move over to El Limon for some reason the beach is infested with sand flies and the water very shallow.

Rest assured that the BEST Beaches...the ones with the smooth sand and the good swimming... are few and far between. Perhaps all of the east coast has them...I don't know that area. But I am pretty confident that all those beaches are in some sort of private hands by now.

But from the Capital... with 3 million people, the only really good beach accessible in a day is Guyacanas --- perhaps Juan Dolio in parts. Boca Chica is polluted and Andreas is too shallow to swim.

so by your very own stats.. most of the beaches for most of the population are already in private hands....

You need to come down here and do your research in person, hermano.

Is that really ok with you? If now the owners are given permission to drive any locals off their beachfront?

 

[Lambada]

So much for the Revisory Assemby :ermm: two of its members were found to be voting with 3 controls instead of 1 on Thursday, namely fiddling.
Descubren irregularidades en votaci?n Asamblea Revisora

And unfortunately Hipolito Mejia is lending his voice to the anti-constitution movement which could possibly mean the kiss of death.
Mej?a llama a la poblaci?n a expresar inconformidad por nueva Constituci?n :: CLAVE digital m?vil