AntiHatianismo

[K-Mel]

So, K-Mel have you read any of the above author's?

If I'd say yes would you believe me ? :smoke:

Nope I only knew Demorizi and Lugo, who BTW had sometimes nasty point of views as presented in this article :

Orlando Obj?o escribe acerca del racismo entre los dominicanos: "Mulato".

 

[Chip]

Samuel Hazard's testimony is one thing, however he is not the only one who gave his testimony about the DR population of that time.

It would be more fair to present different views of the Dominican population of that time from different witnesses. Torres Saillant ( I know that you guys don't like him) has this approach in his article " Tribulation of Blackness" and it is more in line with what a intellectual debate should be.

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~jag/POL596A/torres-sailblackdom.pdf

Now from the dawn of the colonization of la Hispaniola in 1492 to her independence from Spain in 1865, the bulk of the population has never been a Spanish looking country, saying different is definitely a myth.

Dr Juan Bosch in "De Cristobal Colon Castro a Fidel Castro " Vol 2, refutes also this allegation ( I am abroad so I can't quote him, I'll do it when back home) when he describes the DR population before 1822.

The testimonies of all the Spanish (and others) historians of the colonial time ( some of them being conquistadores) are just not in line with this version of history :

- Herrera
- Oviedo
- Lopez de Gamara
- Charlevoix
- Benzoni

etc, etc

A Spanish officer who fought the restauration war in la Hispaniola, also strongly refutes this allegation of a European looking country in those years:

- General Jos? de La Gandara " Anexion y guerra de Santo Domingo" Vol 1, see pages (pdf numerotation) 59/60 ( where he gives his view about Haitians and Dominicans populations) , 73, and 237/238

Anexion y guerra de Santo Domingo (Open Library)

- Teniente General Ramon Gonzalez Tablas "Historia de la dominacion y ultima guera de Espa?a en Santo Domingo ", see p25 " Los Dominicanos"

Historia de la dominacion y ultima guera de Espan

Moreau de Saint Mery described also the spanish side of la Hispaniola (2 volumes), which doesn't fit with Hazard's allegation :

A topographical and political description of the Spanish part of Saint-Domingo (Open Library)

A topographical and political description of the Spanish part of Saint-Domingo (Open Library)

Is this justification of Boyers policy of forbidding whites to own property and the confiscation of said??

Regarding the "supposed" minority of whites in that period, according to Jose Alvarez de Peralta at he time of the Treaty of Basel the racial proportions are as follows:

blancos (white)........................................... ..................100,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Blanca........................................100, 000
Mulatos........................................... ..............................70,000
Mestizos de Raza India y Negro..........................................60, 000
Negros............................................ ..............................70, 000

Emilio Rodriguez Demorizi "Relaciones geogr?ficas de Santo Domingo" Vol 1, P.162.

http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/61282-tainos-dr-12.html#post511031

 

[Chip]

Excuse me Senior Chip but the archives and the documents said so => I gave the references in another thread, plse check by yourself

I'm certain you can find a source or two to support your case, that hardly makes it historical fact that the majority of Dominicans wanted the Haitians to invade.

 

[K-Mel]

This would appear to be justification of Boyers policy of forbidding whites to own property and the confiscation of said, how sad.

Who justified what ? I want to precise first that I I AM NOT HAITIAN NOR HAITIAN RELATED

Boyer was a mulatto with a French father ( from Provence) he did not wrote the Haitian constitutions from 1801 to 1805 .

May I say that Dessalines was illeterate and it was the mulattoes who wrote that constitution ?

Les constitutions d'Haiti, 1801-1885 : Haiti (Republic) Constitution. [from old catalog] : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Plus you mix up everything, this is why reading the 1st hand documents is really important.

 

[bob saunders]

Who justified what ? I want to precise first that I I AM NOT HAITIAN NOR HAITIAN RELATED

Boyer was a mulatto with a French father ( from Provence) he did not wrote the Haitian constitutions from 1801 to 1805 .

May I say that Dessalines was illeterate and it was the mulattoes who wrote that constitution ?

Les constitutions d'Haiti, 1801-1885 : Haiti (Republic) Constitution. [from old catalog] : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Plus you mix up everything, this is why reading the 1st hand documents is really important.

No, but you do show bias towards the Haitian point of view and discount the Dominican majority view.

 

[K-Mel]

I'm certain you can find a source or two to support your case, that hardly makes it historical fact that the majority of Dominicans wanted the Haitians to invade.

Let's put it that way, SOME elite of that time wanted it, including the free people of color who were called "espanoles" but were not considered citizens or ciudadanos (with their full rights) this is why Pablo Ali and his Batallon 31 welcomed the Haitians instead of fighting them.

Last the more or less 4000 remaining slaves welcomed them with open arms.

 

[K-Mel]

No, but you do show bias towards the Haitian point of view and discount the Dominican majority view.

Which majority are you talking about ? Which bias are you talking about ?

Showing a different view of what is spread as a reality is a bias to you ?

So when I said that "Africans sold Africans to Europeans" nonsense is BS, I show some bias to you ?

Agree to disagree in a civil manner, is not showing bias

 

[Chip]

Revisionism is not scholarship.

 

[cobraboy]

Revisionism is not scholarship.

Never, ever tell that to a Franklin School acolyte... :cheeky:

Otherwise university history departments would have to retool...

 

[K-Mel]

Revisionism is not scholarship.

Senior Chip,

Oviedo, Las Casas, Benzoni lived during the time of the colonization of la Hispaniola.

Moreau de Saint Mery visited and described both sides of La Hispaniola.

De La Gandara lived and participated to the restauration war.

So when people comes out with something different of what they saw and experienced , I am asking who are the revisionists ?

When you study history the primary sources have the priority and they need to be cross checked of course.

 

[Chip]

Let's put it that way, SOME elite of that time wanted it, including the free people of color who were called "espanoles" but were not considered citizens or ciudadanos (with their full rights) this is why Pablo Ali and his Batallon 31 welcomed the Haitians instead of fighting them.

Last the more or less 4000 remaining slaves welcomed them with open arms.

So what you are saying is that 100,000 + whites wanted Boyer to invade and confiscate their property and tell them they cannot own any either?

 

[K-Mel]

Never, ever tell that to a Franklin School acolyte... :cheeky:

Otherwise university history departments would have to retool...

Did not read him yet, his book is hard to find

 

[Chip]

Senior Chip,

Oviedo, Las Casas, Benzoni lived during the time of the colonization of la Hispaniola.

Moreau de Saint Mery visited and described both sides of La Hispaniola.

De La Gandara lived and participated to the restauration war.

So when people comes out with something different of what they saw and experienced , I am asking who are the revisionists ?

When you study history the primary sources have the priority and they need to be cross checked of course.

When you study history you don't disregard other sources because they are inconvenient to one's agenda, just sayin.

 

[K-Mel]

So what you are saying is that 100,000 + whites wanted Boyer to invade and confiscate their property and tell them they cannot own any either?

Chip , you can believe all you want if it makes you feel good. I agree to disagree, however you could read Moya Pons or Price Mars who are not related to Franco Franklin RIP. I agree to disagree, to each his own view of history. No PROBLEM with that.

 

[PICHARDO]

Consider the development of both countries over the past century. Why did the DR develop so much more than Haiti, considering Haiti's greater population and resources (at the time)

It has to do with the policies taken by both countries during the same time span.
Whilst the DR was always seeking foreign investment and embraced those foreigners by providing them equal rights as any Dominican citizen would have, Haiti was a closed country for the most part and still is.

There was USA intervention in both countries but only the DR seem to benefit rom it.

Well, in reality Haiti did benefit the most at the time, given the changes introduced by the U.S. during their handling of the country. Problem was that once they left, so too left the changes within months of that departure. The most significant back-step to place in the ports.

The DR not only got the changes to task, but made them institutionalized changes that were to stay.

Antihaitianismo is not currently taught in Dominican schools.

But it was and a very effective one during that time.

 

[PICHARDO]

Is there Antihaitianism in the DR? Of course there is, there have been and will always be; it's the nature of this island and the history among its people.

Not any different than how most U.S. citizens look at their Mexicans neighbors on the South. It's a matter of nationality and past conflicts.

 

[PICHARDO]

"Notice again how Balaguer makes indistinct use of the terms "race" and "nation," so as to pretend that Haitians and Dominicans not only belong to different nations, but also to completely different races."

To pretend? They are different in race and are separate nations, has been the case from the origins of them both.

"The extinction of the indian race gave way for the population of Santo Domingo to be integrally constituted by European families, especially Spanish and French. Before the Treaty of Basel (1795), the colony's population was formed by the best of the families that had migrated to America, attracted by gold or by the fascinating mystery of remote expeditions [Balaguer 1984, 59].

In this brief passage, Balaguer helps to perpetuate the myth of the white Dominican by ignoring the fact that there was a considerable number of blacks and mulattoes in the colony before 1795 (Moya Pons 1977, 378-379). Balaguer's romantic notion of Dominican history is, unfortunately, shared by many Dominicans."

Myth?

The island was discovered and populated by Spaniards PRIOR to any slaves trades or blacks/mulattoes being in the picture.

Don't worry! We know the truth and they can continue to be ignorant of the whole history of the people, let alone the island.

 

[Chip]

Chip , you can believe all you want if it makes you feel good. I agree to disagree, however you could read Moya Pons or Price Mars who are not related to Franco Franklin RIP. I agree to disagree, to each his own view of history. No PROBLEM with that.

The problem for you is there is only one correct form of history, everything else is revisionism.

 

[PICHARDO]

WOW...it is incredible the amount of influence Haiti has had on the Dominican psyche.

DR is hardly ever mentioned in Haitian history books.

That is probably why we don't have a culture of Anti-Dominicanisme.

LOL!!!


And you really believe that too, don't you?

LOL!!!!!!


As if!

 

[malko]

Just been reading thriugh the thread, dont come as often on dr1 since I m working out of country......
No one can denie the fact that haitians in dr today are descriminated, loads of examples all over the place.
U can try to give justification to that kind of behaviour, history, taking my healthcate.... bla bla bla jajajaja......
In the end u are intolerant, 1 because u are uneducated, 2 because u are poor and have to blame it on somone else....

I ve been, and still are, a big fan of dr1. But to see people who have given me good ideas and explinations on loads of stuff on dr, try to justify racist behaviour just makes me feel real, real sad........But ure right, the dr is going down the drain and its all the haitians fault, sniggers the rich and politicians.....