ok lets all examine what make dominican life. I say it aint just one thing. It aint just the "good" life as AZB lives it and likes. It aint just the slums either. I have a friend who i have hunted with down there and he was "IN" in the last political regime that held office. He lives very nicely, has a super manicured lawn, an in ground pool. he was the assistant to Hipolito, before he was the ambassador to Germany for that president. To say he had it good is an undertsatment...he doesnt represent how life is either!.....its a mixture, but i think Dominican life is more represented by the small town poorer folk. I think the exact same folk AZB belittles. they represent the DR more than any other group. Its where the music comes from, the dances, the festival costumes. It where the poor statistics of education, and joblessness comes from as well....its the DR. You cant seperate them they are intristically intwined............its the same reasons that things change slowly for good or bad.............luckily we all enjoy some part of it, or we wouldnt be here.....bob
- Thread starter AZB
- Start date
Are people living in USA are really better off than us here?
I had the pleasure of meeting Bob and his girlfriend. I only got to chat with them a short time but he is a good guy and she seems like a real sweetheart.
I dont think its fair to trounce on her because she may not come from an affluent background. By the same token, I think the people who are trying to warn Bob to be careful that he is not taken advantage of are only trying to help. Sometimes people in this country mistake generosity for something else.
FWIW.
Larry
I dont think its fair to trounce on her because she may not come from an affluent background. By the same token, I think the people who are trying to warn Bob to be careful that he is not taken advantage of are only trying to help. Sometimes people in this country mistake generosity for something else.
FWIW.
Larry
laurapasinifan said:
LPF: I don't think you can compare your lifestyle with that of your GF as again you're comparing different social classes. The question in my book is if you compare yourself with someone in the same social class in The DR (i.e. if you consider yourself middle class compare yourself with a middle class Dominican) who lives a happier life you or the dominican guy? Again happiness is a personal thing, but in general who would you say is happier? I would dare say The Dominican guy...
Same thing when it comes to your GF's family. From your description here it sounds like they are either poor or low middle class (Disclamer: Unlike AZB I see nothing wrong with being poor. I grew up poor and most of my family is still poor and I think we're pretty decent family).
Anyhow, I think you need to compare your GF's family with a poor or lower middle class family from The US. In addition if they live in Licey I would say you'd have to compare them with a poor family living in Gary, Indiana or similar place. Now who would you say lives a happier life? I would dare say that would be your GF's family. Maybe it's because they don't know any better, but at a minimum the network of family and friends they have in The DR is bound to make for a happier existence.
Great discussion - I've had it with myself a thousand times. When I lived in the DR, I had nothing, but I loved my life. I loved the friendliness of the people, the warmth and hospitality of my (ex) in-laws, and the general air of tranquility and humor and enjoyment of life. I felt at peace. But slowly, reality started creeping in: How could we survive on my teacher's salary? Did we want our son to grow up in a third-world country? etc., etc. Finally, after three years, we had to move to the States. I now have every material thing I could want (not that I really want much), but there's something missing ... it's that intangible feeling of living in a place and culture that you love ... here, life is sterile and soullesss ... how can anyone love Wal-Mart and chain restaurants and malls as a way of life? No ... life in the DR (for an expat, at least) is better, IF you can make it work. But unless you have your own business or a private income, how could you possibly support yourself and a family?
Suarez...that network of family and friends hits the nail on the head. I think it is why I never feel alone here. Loneliness is a terrible feeling. When I visit my brother in Virginia...the people all stay indoors. They say Hi in passing. Sometimes they don't even say that. But trying to engage them is often futile. You have to make friends at work. After a few days I get to feeling isolated.
My wife is from a barrio family and she is a much better person than most people I know that have money. AZB is off the mark on his comments about poor people. For example, the poor people in the campo are very nice people. I know some in the barrio that are great.
Larry...I think what you want to say is that these people don't appreciate what you do for them. I once thought it was education related. I now believe it has something to do with their rapid transistion into the modern age. Again...a qualifier...it depends on what area of the country we are talking about.
My wife is from a barrio family and she is a much better person than most people I know that have money. AZB is off the mark on his comments about poor people. For example, the poor people in the campo are very nice people. I know some in the barrio that are great.
Larry...I think what you want to say is that these people don't appreciate what you do for them. I once thought it was education related. I now believe it has something to do with their rapid transistion into the modern age. Again...a qualifier...it depends on what area of the country we are talking about.
nothing bad in saying some one is poor or lower middle class. But I will go on and give another view of the Dominican middle class If I may. I have friends who have lived in both america and the DR. their houses are in the $100,000 us funds range and up. A few of thier relatives have similar houses and have lived soley in the DR, but they have buisnesses. To say that the average middle class DR resident has their own buissness and lives in houses worth above 3.4million pesos is a huge stretch I would think........I think my gf family falls pretty squarely in the middle class. Possibly they live in an AREA that may be more classified as lower middle class. But the point isnt my GF family. Just how life in the DR is viewed over all. There is a really nice wooden house across the street( it belongs to my buddies mother in law)( thats how I met my GF) most of the other houses are stucco, some unpainted, most are gated around.. most are very small in square footage. Wouldnt the middle class of any place, surround the nearest big city. Like the suburbs in other countries. you know in america a farmer can be poor but own 10 million dollars worth of land. His house can usually be a ramshackle colonial built many many years before...is he wealthy or not?. same goes here. Land is usually seen as wealth and my GF family has plenty, although there are plenty of brothers. I feel confident describing middle class in the DR as something quite a bit different than the US. It isnt fair to ask me to say wether i am better off or them in life. I have seen both, they have only seen thier own, I can guarantee you they love life and feel they have it fine. They dont act or feel poor thats for sure. My GF loves clothes but she doesnt turn into a spastic nut when i take her shopping, we go through four or five stores looking for what she likes, she obviously hasnt gone without up to now. comparing my life style to their is useless. I live like middle class even though my income blows it away, so I think it is useless to compare the countries middle class differences. life can be hectic no matter whhere you fall...its hectic trying find food sometimes in the DR for some. Its less hectic just making enough and kicking back with no hobbies or wants outside your little world. some people dont need the newest car, TV, or Computer. dont need to travel far from the house, dont buy gifts for many or any family members, and may not have children.....life can be easy street for many people like that. Describing life, can be such a greasy football, to try and get a hold of cant it?.......boy has my mind been stimulated today!!!!!!!!!! ha ha ha ha..........bob
This discussion has twisted into poor vs rich. this always happens when people who don't live here, don't seem to get the point. The expats who live here 24/7 seem to agree with me yet the folks who only visit here as tourists seem to twist this discussion from one extreme to another.
I never said all poor folks are low lives. I never said all rich folks are humane.
In general, the tourists always, and I mean always date poor girls and guys. Why is that? I mean its 100% of the times. never a girl from a better class family, she always has to be from a barrio.
The expats who live here 24/7 in santiago or SD don't seem to mix with the same types. Why is that?
Now i have mentioned in several of my posts in the past that poor folks from campo are also the real dominican folks in my books. They are humble and proud. They take no free hand from no one if they can help it. They will feed you and also fill up your car trunk with fresh fruits and veggies fresh from their farms. However, I do have problems with poor folks who use foreigners for their own financial gain. I have seen many and I mean many foreigners who support a whole family of the girl or a guy they date. they buy them cars, apartments, houses, pay for kids belonging to other men and even pay for their relatives. These same girls also have their own local chulos in the barrios. These girls don't stay faithfull when their gringo boyfriend is back home working and calling her everyday. These same girls sleep with us and answer the phone calls of their boyfriends while laying naked on our beds. Now I am not pointing at anyone's girlfriend but I am saying, this happens in general. Even the decent poor dominicans don't respect some girl 20 yrs old dating a guy 50 yrs old and receiving financial support in return. Proud dominicans can be rich and dirt poor. I hapen to know many poor proud dominicans as well.
Just in general, the people who are within my socio-economical circle are more beneficial to me than lets say some sankie from a resort. My friends take me to airport when I am traveling and come to receive me when I return. Sometimes they have a custom officer waiting for me inside if I am bringing something that can cost me in duty fees. These guys always know some general or a coronel in case of any police trouble. They always introduce you to other connected people. They never ask for money and often times never have any problems where you have to bail them out with cash. These people often help you as opposed to asking for your help. there is nothing wrong with socializing with folks of your own equal social class. One doesn't have to socialize with poor folks all the time to feel like a better human being.
So my question is this, Why do visiting foreigners always date poor folks 100% of the time? What is wrong with meeting better class domincians who hold good jobs and live here like you folks do in usa?
Please tell me what is so wrong with this picture?
AZB
I never said all poor folks are low lives. I never said all rich folks are humane.
In general, the tourists always, and I mean always date poor girls and guys. Why is that? I mean its 100% of the times. never a girl from a better class family, she always has to be from a barrio.
The expats who live here 24/7 in santiago or SD don't seem to mix with the same types. Why is that?
Now i have mentioned in several of my posts in the past that poor folks from campo are also the real dominican folks in my books. They are humble and proud. They take no free hand from no one if they can help it. They will feed you and also fill up your car trunk with fresh fruits and veggies fresh from their farms. However, I do have problems with poor folks who use foreigners for their own financial gain. I have seen many and I mean many foreigners who support a whole family of the girl or a guy they date. they buy them cars, apartments, houses, pay for kids belonging to other men and even pay for their relatives. These same girls also have their own local chulos in the barrios. These girls don't stay faithfull when their gringo boyfriend is back home working and calling her everyday. These same girls sleep with us and answer the phone calls of their boyfriends while laying naked on our beds. Now I am not pointing at anyone's girlfriend but I am saying, this happens in general. Even the decent poor dominicans don't respect some girl 20 yrs old dating a guy 50 yrs old and receiving financial support in return. Proud dominicans can be rich and dirt poor. I hapen to know many poor proud dominicans as well.
Just in general, the people who are within my socio-economical circle are more beneficial to me than lets say some sankie from a resort. My friends take me to airport when I am traveling and come to receive me when I return. Sometimes they have a custom officer waiting for me inside if I am bringing something that can cost me in duty fees. These guys always know some general or a coronel in case of any police trouble. They always introduce you to other connected people. They never ask for money and often times never have any problems where you have to bail them out with cash. These people often help you as opposed to asking for your help. there is nothing wrong with socializing with folks of your own equal social class. One doesn't have to socialize with poor folks all the time to feel like a better human being.
So my question is this, Why do visiting foreigners always date poor folks 100% of the time? What is wrong with meeting better class domincians who hold good jobs and live here like you folks do in usa?
Please tell me what is so wrong with this picture?
AZB
The Poor & The Rich
The Poor Americans live a better lifestyle than the Poor Dominicans due to the existence of our Welfare system. A poor american is provided with enough food for themselves and family, a place to stay with electricity, water, heat, etc., free education (including college) for themselves and families and some pocket spending money for misc. items. A poor dominican will be limited to those resources due to the fact that it's not just handed to them.
A middle class dominican can have a better lifestyle than a middle class american due to the high cost of living. Mortgage/Rent sucks up at least 30% of most americans gross income, uncle sam takes the other third, and child support is 17% in NYC:laugh:. An individual making $52,000 a year is bringing home $35,000 after taxes and forks over at least $1,000 a month in rent leaving him with $23,000 a year or $2,000 a month for utilities, groceries, clothes, entertainment, car note, insurance, school loans, misc. bills, savings, etc..
A rich american will have a better lifestyle than rich dominican or equal due to the convience of having everything here readily available in the US, but I guess that won't matter since rich people will have property here in the US and there in the DR.
The Poor Americans live a better lifestyle than the Poor Dominicans due to the existence of our Welfare system. A poor american is provided with enough food for themselves and family, a place to stay with electricity, water, heat, etc., free education (including college) for themselves and families and some pocket spending money for misc. items. A poor dominican will be limited to those resources due to the fact that it's not just handed to them.
A middle class dominican can have a better lifestyle than a middle class american due to the high cost of living. Mortgage/Rent sucks up at least 30% of most americans gross income, uncle sam takes the other third, and child support is 17% in NYC:laugh:. An individual making $52,000 a year is bringing home $35,000 after taxes and forks over at least $1,000 a month in rent leaving him with $23,000 a year or $2,000 a month for utilities, groceries, clothes, entertainment, car note, insurance, school loans, misc. bills, savings, etc..
A rich american will have a better lifestyle than rich dominican or equal due to the convience of having everything here readily available in the US, but I guess that won't matter since rich people will have property here in the US and there in the DR.
I have been reading DR1 daily and just have not yet wanted to give my 2 cents. However, what I saw yesterday changed all that. My husband and I were driving on 27th of February and came across an accident. My first one I have seen since we moved here 8 months ago.
There was a man dead in the far left lane. Half his head was crushed. It looked as though he was hit while trying to cross the street as I did not see a motorcycle. This is the first and only time I have seem someone that close who had just died so I was in complete shock. What amazed me was how there must have been 40 Dominicans just standing around him and they did not appear to even look upset. No body covered the body which was grossly bloody and there was not an ambulance in site.
After the shock of what I saw wore off I started to wonder why on earth am I here again? Sometimes things bring it to reality that you do live in a third world country. But today I woke up still with a sense of belonging.
I do not think it is a question of whether or not its better to live in the US or here, its whether your heart has that sense of belonging. Because if it does then the good will always outway the bad. Just my thought on this country after a very emotional experience here!
There was a man dead in the far left lane. Half his head was crushed. It looked as though he was hit while trying to cross the street as I did not see a motorcycle. This is the first and only time I have seem someone that close who had just died so I was in complete shock. What amazed me was how there must have been 40 Dominicans just standing around him and they did not appear to even look upset. No body covered the body which was grossly bloody and there was not an ambulance in site.
After the shock of what I saw wore off I started to wonder why on earth am I here again? Sometimes things bring it to reality that you do live in a third world country. But today I woke up still with a sense of belonging.
I do not think it is a question of whether or not its better to live in the US or here, its whether your heart has that sense of belonging. Because if it does then the good will always outway the bad. Just my thought on this country after a very emotional experience here!
I Love Both, but...
I'm and American and I love NY (U.S.) and I love the DR.
Nevertheless, if I wasn't working in finance/business or involved in something challenging, I'd get bored in DR real quick! What the hell do you guys in DR do all day, surf the internet, drink rum and Presidentes, golf, and sit by beach picking-up 18 year-old Dominican girls?? Well, I could probably do that for 6 hours out of the day, but after that, I'd go stir crazy.
I guess there are a few other concerns as well.... namely:
1) If I had kids (which I don't) I'd feel guilty as hell raising them in the 3rd world, just because "daddy" can't find a suitable 18 year-old girlfriend in the US.
2) Waking up everyday worrying if I'll be able to get my money out of the bank.
3) Waking up everyday worrying if the property I bought is still mine the next day.
... that's about it. Once I can resolve these 4 issues (boredom, kids, access to money, and property rights) I'm as good as there. Honestly, I think most of these issues can be solved fairly easily (except the boredome issue.)
1. Kids.... DON'T HAVE ANY
2. Access to Money.... LEAVE ALL MONEY IN US BANKS
3. Property Rights.... RENT!!!
-Helpmann
I'm and American and I love NY (U.S.) and I love the DR.
Nevertheless, if I wasn't working in finance/business or involved in something challenging, I'd get bored in DR real quick! What the hell do you guys in DR do all day, surf the internet, drink rum and Presidentes, golf, and sit by beach picking-up 18 year-old Dominican girls?? Well, I could probably do that for 6 hours out of the day, but after that, I'd go stir crazy.
I guess there are a few other concerns as well.... namely:
1) If I had kids (which I don't) I'd feel guilty as hell raising them in the 3rd world, just because "daddy" can't find a suitable 18 year-old girlfriend in the US.
2) Waking up everyday worrying if I'll be able to get my money out of the bank.
3) Waking up everyday worrying if the property I bought is still mine the next day.
... that's about it. Once I can resolve these 4 issues (boredom, kids, access to money, and property rights) I'm as good as there. Honestly, I think most of these issues can be solved fairly easily (except the boredome issue.)
1. Kids.... DON'T HAVE ANY
2. Access to Money.... LEAVE ALL MONEY IN US BANKS
3. Property Rights.... RENT!!!
-Helpmann
boredom?
Just ask yourself this question, if you find yourself in the situation that you no longer have to work in the US to support yourself, what would you do during the day? In the US of course.helpmann said:I'm and American and I love NY (U.S.) and I love the DR.
Nevertheless, if I wasn't working in finance/business or involved in something challenging, I'd get bored in DR real quick! What the hell do you guys in DR do all day, surf the internet, drink rum and Presidentes, golf, and sit by beach picking-up 18 year-old Dominican girls?? Well, I could probably do that for 6 hours out of the day, but after that, I'd go stir crazy.
I guess there are a few other concerns as well.... namely:
1) If I had kids (which I don't) I'd feel guilty as hell raising them in the 3rd world, just because "daddy" can't find a suitable 18 year-old girlfriend in the US.
2) Waking up everyday worrying if I'll be able to get my money out of the bank.
3) Waking up everyday worrying if the property I bought is still mine the next day.
... that's about it. Once I can resolve these 4 issues (boredom, kids, access to money, and property rights) I'm as good as there. Honestly, I think most of these issues can be solved fairly easily (except the boredome issue.)
1. Kids.... DON'T HAVE ANY
2. Access to Money.... LEAVE ALL MONEY IN US BANKS
3. Property Rights.... RENT!!!
-Helpmann
If my interpretation
of the OP's original post is correct, I think what he was trying to point out is that in spite of all that we have here in the US, we are still not as happy a people (and I mean the inner happiness) as you often find in the DR.
One of the things that I have always found interesting is how we in the US define "standard of living", versus much of the rest of the world. If you ask an American about his/her standard of living, more often than not we equate it with our material possessions. We are one of the few societies on earth who don't include our health and happiness in that equation, among a number of other factors. Additionally, I think the OP was trying to point out the fact that in our effort to accumulate these material things, and hold on to them, we have created a level of stress that is not often found in other societies where the accumulation of material things is not highest on the agenda.
I can tell you from personal experience, and I know others who would tell you the same, that there is pressure in our society to acquire all of these things. And, in addition to that, there exists the pressure to hold on to those things. Sometimes I have to ask myself "for what?" I recall as a poor kid growing up how we used to talk often about what would happen if the economy took a serious hit (comparable to the Great Depression). We used to talk about how the rich would lose their minds, and assumed that many would committ suicide (as many did, in fact, during the Great Depression). We, on the other hand, would be just fine, as we had nothing to lose to begin with. So, there never was the pressure and associated stress with trying to accummulate "things" and the sleepless nights worrying about losing those things. If we had a place to lay our heads and were fortunate enough to eat every day, we were pretty damned happy.
So, maybe there are those folks who chase material wealth and possessions, and never lose a moments sleep feeling pressured to do so. More power to them. What I can tell you from personal experience is that there are those who do feel that pressure, and the stress associated with it, and think that maybe it's time to take a step or two backwards.
of the OP's original post is correct, I think what he was trying to point out is that in spite of all that we have here in the US, we are still not as happy a people (and I mean the inner happiness) as you often find in the DR.
One of the things that I have always found interesting is how we in the US define "standard of living", versus much of the rest of the world. If you ask an American about his/her standard of living, more often than not we equate it with our material possessions. We are one of the few societies on earth who don't include our health and happiness in that equation, among a number of other factors. Additionally, I think the OP was trying to point out the fact that in our effort to accumulate these material things, and hold on to them, we have created a level of stress that is not often found in other societies where the accumulation of material things is not highest on the agenda.
I can tell you from personal experience, and I know others who would tell you the same, that there is pressure in our society to acquire all of these things. And, in addition to that, there exists the pressure to hold on to those things. Sometimes I have to ask myself "for what?" I recall as a poor kid growing up how we used to talk often about what would happen if the economy took a serious hit (comparable to the Great Depression). We used to talk about how the rich would lose their minds, and assumed that many would committ suicide (as many did, in fact, during the Great Depression). We, on the other hand, would be just fine, as we had nothing to lose to begin with. So, there never was the pressure and associated stress with trying to accummulate "things" and the sleepless nights worrying about losing those things. If we had a place to lay our heads and were fortunate enough to eat every day, we were pretty damned happy.
So, maybe there are those folks who chase material wealth and possessions, and never lose a moments sleep feeling pressured to do so. More power to them. What I can tell you from personal experience is that there are those who do feel that pressure, and the stress associated with it, and think that maybe it's time to take a step or two backwards.
Tambien
AZB-your remarks about who I associate with or choose to associate with are totally uncalled for. Rude and without class. You assume soooo much and have an view of the lower class in a country that you DONT even belong to is di;speciable to say the least. Who are you to judge the lower class? What high horse did you ride in with?? C'mon you are smarter than this. Get with it and really-no one gives a rat's ass about your friends in "high places"
BTW--of course you know the first three letters of the word assume?
JOHN
laurapasinifan said:
AZB-your remarks about who I associate with or choose to associate with are totally uncalled for. Rude and without class. You assume soooo much and have an view of the lower class in a country that you DONT even belong to is di;speciable to say the least. Who are you to judge the lower class? What high horse did you ride in with?? C'mon you are smarter than this. Get with it and really-no one gives a rat's ass about your friends in "high places"
BTW--of course you know the first three letters of the word assume?
JOHN