Beating up on Leonel.

Rocky

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Those of you who are beating up on Leonel, blaming him for all that is wrong in this country, and second guessing his decisions, are making a grave mistake.
This is the instinctive reaction to something you don?t like.
The Dominicans will be reacting in the same way, and if we don?t start right now, making sure that they understand that the problems we are now having, are a direct result of the previous government, there will be a high probability that the Dominicans will vote them back in again.
It is our duty, those of us who have been privileged to have more education than the average Dominican, to ensure that Dominicans understand and don?t forget the Hippo and his reign in terror.
If we don?t start now, we could be in trouble, come next election.
Enough of the ?cry baby? stuff.
Let?s rally together to ensure our future here in the DR.
 

Chirimoya

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The only conclusion people can draw is that there is no real difference between any of the parties. There is certainly little ideological difference, and even the personalities are all from more or less the same mould.

Leonel may have a more civilised veneer than Hippo, but he has been neither willing nor able (powerless?) to tackle the fundamental malaise of clientilism, corruption and fucked up priorities.

He has had to provide the faithful with botellas, jeepetas and contracts. He has had to kowtow to his big business buddies. His friends in the military are far more crucial to his survival in government than the crumbling education and health systems.

Fact is, pandering to those interests is what got him into power, and if he doesn't feed them, no matter how noble his intentions were, he is out on his arse.

At first sight, we say that this is what keeps the country back, but is it more accurate to see it as a status quo that suits the powerful minority? It is in their interest to have a large uneducated and underpaid workforce. The art of governing such a nation is to throw them enough titbits to keep them from rising up, and as we see here into the DR, it is a fine balance.
 

Rocky

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Some people say the Holocaust never happened.

Chirimoya,
The reason I opened this thread, as opposed to replying in other Leonel related threads that are now running, is to point out that we need to have a different attitude than what is being posted elsewhere.
It doesn't matter, what he is doing right or wrong.
What really matters to me, and should matter to all DR residents, is that we rally behind him and spread the word to Dominicans, so as to not have another "Hippo Fiasco", 3 years from now.
We have a moral responsibility and a vested interest, to stand up and be counted, and stop whining.
Let us not forget what Hippo did to this country!
 

Ken

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I agree, Rocky.

There is no way to know now where the DR will be at the end of Leonel's term, but I am absolutely certain that there will still be many of the problems. Possibly this will be because Leonel failed as a wizard, but more likely it will be because major changes in direction are made slowly.

If you have never had the experience of leading a large organization through major changes in direction, you don't realize how long it takes. You also don't, except in the movies and on TV, start off by completely alienating the people in entrenched power positions. You start where they are, they gradually make changes.

The fact that the Congress is controlled by Hippo's party, and that it has a vested interest in seeing Leonel fail, must also not be forgotten. Though from the tone of some of the posts on this board, it seems it has been. If Leonel did not have to have the support of many of the people whose actions we would like to see dealt with, I believe that he would have been able to move more quickly than has been possible given the present situation.
 

frank alvarez

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Im with you Rocky!

Im with you Rocky! Sure, you can find plenty of things wrong with Leonel. However, there is no one around that is 1/2 as capable as him in his party (except for Danilo who has zero charisma) or the PRSC. The PRD is totally
incapable of governing since they are just a conglomerate of personal and
party interests and the usual attitude is the hell with the country and the people.

My fear, as I assume is yours, is that the country will blame Leonel for the mess we are in, most of it Hippo's doing and some of it not in our control, and look again to the PRD. The great Dominican masses are not necessarily smart or know or care about the real reasons of all our problems. A case in point is this Saturday at the gas stations: Leonel's government has set up
a system to save fuel making gas stations close at 8 daily, at noon Saturday
and Sunday closed. This first Saturday there was a mess at all gas stations and people totally ticked off at the government.

Most Dominicans are not, I repeat, are not very smart or know or care about what is really going on and are fanatical about their party loyalties,
regardless. A very short memory is also usual and now people have forgotten about Hippo's lousy government and had he been there now the dollar exchange would be 80 to 1, a plantain 20 pesos, bread 10, eggs 15, a pound of chicken 100 pesos and a pound of beef 200, etc. Well, you get the idea.
God Save Us From Ourselves!
 

Rocky

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Ken,
You have much greater insight into politics than I do and what you say, makes perfect sense.
Frank,
You have captured the true essence of the problem.

We should use every opportunity when in contact with Dominicans, to make sure they don't forget the REAL reson we are in this mess.
 

amy2761

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Ken said:
The fact that the Congress is controlled by Hippo's party, and that it has a vested interest in seeing Leonel fail, must also not be forgotten.

EXACTLY!! How can you work with people to make positive change when all they want is to stab you in the back? Essentially, they're two parties working towards two different goals in the same office .... recipie (sp?) for disaster if you ask me.

Leonel has strived to make positive changes and all we can do is try to support him whilst educating people in the basic rule that it will get worse before it gets better, but once it starts getting better there's only one way and that's up.

Stay well,
Amy
 

rellosk

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Ken said:
The fact that the Congress is controlled by Hippo's party, and that it has a vested interest in seeing Leonel fail, must also not be forgotten.
And that's why the 2006 congressional elections are so important. For those that want to see Leonel have a better chance at success, Hippo's party must be voted out.
 

RHM

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Rocky said:
Now we're talking.
We have a job to do, so let's do it.
Rocky,

Your words would have had the same impact on the other thread too :)

Don't confuse a little venting with a lack of support. We all care greatly about Dominican politics. It effects us all.

Political leaders need to be supported but they also need to be questioned. He is clearly better than the last guy but that is not a hard thing to do.

I agree that the key to any true reform lies in the congressional seats. The Tiguere party needs to lose some seats.

Scandall
 

Rocky

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Scandall said:
Don't confuse a little venting with a lack of support.
I understand and agree.
This thread is about ensuring we don't lose sight of the bigger picture, and to encourage our members to start politicking now, before it's too late.
I can't understate the importance of spreading the word to our Dominican brothers.
They are the ones deciding the next election.
 

suarezn

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Look I like Leonel and definitely do not wish for Hippo to be back. In addition I understand that a lot of the problems we are now facing are a result of the previous government mismanagement.

But...Leonel will get a lot of people disilusioned and they will back voting for The PRD if he continues to support asinine decisions such as the one to "conserve" fuel. These kinds of things piss off potential voters and they are right to be pissed off.

When he continues talking about an artificial island and the Metro, while problems like electricity continue to be unresolved and even get worse. When he continues to try to tax the hell out of the country, even though there's no need for it, people take issues with that and they should...

If he continues down this path he will continue to alienate more and more people. I think that, because he won in the first round, he thinks that 50%+ of people voted FOR him. People actually voted more AGAINST Hippo than FOR Leonel. He shouldn't forget that The PRD continues to be the largest party in the country with a very loyal following. Those people will easily forget the past and go back and vote for The PRD if Leonel doesn't give them a reason to vote for him and right now he's doing a schitty job at that. The only thing that torpedoes The PRD is the fact that they cannot come together as a group, because every group within the party wants everything for themselves.
 

RHM

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Rocky said:
I understand and agree.
This thread is about ensuring we don't lose sight of the bigger picture, and to encourage our members to start politicking now, before it's too late.
I can't understate the importance of spreading the word to our Dominican brothers.
They are the ones deciding the next election.
I couldn't agree with you more. I was hanging out with a Dominican friend of mine last night. We were talking about politics. We were both complaining and then she mentioned "that's why I don't vote."

She has never voted in her life...too disillusioned. I explained to her that the sectors for these Deputados are pretty small. If she and other people her age voted, they could make all the difference and sway local elections. Then politicians would have to listen to them if they wanted their votes. She got the idea. Hopefully more will join the ranks of the converted.

Scandall
 

Rocky

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suarezn said:
if he continues to support asinine decisions such as the one to "conserve" fuel.
There is a thread going on right now that deals with that issue.


suarezn said:
If he continues down this path he will continue to alienate more and more people. I think that, because he won in the first round, he thinks that 50%+ of people voted FOR him. People actually voted more AGAINST Hippo than FOR Leonel. He shouldn't forget that The PRD continues to be the largest party in the country with a very loyal following. Those people will easily forget the past and go back and vote for The PRD
Which is why we had better get a move on right now, so that nighmare never happens.
 

Mirador

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Rocky said:
...Which is why we had better get a move on right now, so that nighmare never happens.
The nighmare has already started, the pph (Hipolito) has began to pour resources in the South, canvasing neighborhoods and villages, setting up new 'comit?s de base', with a display of money and other resources never seen before. My friend and neighbor Bebelo in La Cabuyita has been bought off to set up a 'comit? de base'. Bebelo happens to be related to mostly everybody there. Meantime PLD is nowhere in sight. Yesterday by 11:00 pm there wasen't a drop of fuel in the entire South, and the black market was operating at 300 pesos for a gallon of gas and 200 for gasoil. In La Cabuyita, a village below the level of extreme poverty, out of about 50 elligible households, only 5 'Solidaridad' debit cards were issued, and those to cronies of PLD party members.

EL NACIONAL - no fuel in the entire South
 

Chirimoya

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Rocky said:
Chirimoya,
The reason I opened this thread, as opposed to replying in other Leonel related threads that are now running, is to point out that we need to have a different attitude than what is being posted elsewhere.
It doesn't matter, what he is doing right or wrong.
What really matters to me, and should matter to all DR residents, is that we rally behind him and spread the word to Dominicans, so as to not have another "Hippo Fiasco", 3 years from now.
We have a moral responsibility and a vested interest, to stand up and be counted, and stop whining.
Let us not forget what Hippo did to this country!
I know what you mean, Rocky, but what I was getting at was the inevitability of the four yearly cycle: party 1 screws up, party 2 gets voted in on a surge of amnesiac euphoria, party 2 proceeds to screw up.... rinse and repeat.

It doesn't really matter which is the lesser of the two evils. The electorate is unsophisticated enough for both parties to play - and win - this game. My point was that until the lesser of the two evils has the courage to break the cycle (and as a resident of the real world I know this is easier said than done) this will go on happening.

What do you think a small community of concerned expats or Dominicans for that matter can do against this tide? Have you ever tried to reason with a die-hard party loyalist? They are completely blind to their party's defects, and to the rival parties' assets. The only headway might be made with the floaters, who do not have a strong party loyalty, but it will be a struggle to influence the poorer ones. Will you be handing out envelopes with RD$200, baby care packages, half bottles of brugal and zinc roofs come the next election campaign? That is unfortunately what will influence their choices on polling day.
 

Rocky

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Chirimoya said:
What do you think a small community of concerned expats or Dominicans for that matter can do against this tide? Have you ever tried to reason with a die-hard party loyalist? They are completely blind to their party's defects, and to the rival parties' assets. The only headway might be made with the floaters, who do not have a strong party loyalty, but it will be a struggle to influence the poorer ones. Will you be handing out envelopes with RD$200, baby care packages, half bottles of brugal and zinc roofs come the next election campaign? That is unfortunately what will influence their choices on polling day.
I would think it's not worth wasting any time on the die hards.
All of us have contact with Dominicans, and we should use every opportunity that presents itself to put the blame for DR problems, where it belongs, on the Hippo's back.
It's really quite easy, assuming you speak the lingo.
Anytime the subject of increased costs comes up, mention who's to blame, and that you hope they don't forget it, come next election.
I do it all the time, and invariably, there's a couple of guys there, who say, "he's right, you know", and they start remembering what the Hippo did.
We have to keep it fresh in their minds.
 

Rocky

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Mirador said:
The nighmare has already started, the pph (Hipolito) has began to pour resources in the South, canvasing neighborhoods and villages, setting up new 'comit?s de base', with a display of money and other resources never seen before.
That is exactly why we have to start now.
We must not underestimate him, like people underestimated Hitler.
 

Escott

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Rocky said:
I would think it's not worth wasting any time on the die hards.
All of us have contact with Dominicans, and we should use every opportunity that presents itself to put the blame for DR problems, where it belongs, on the Hippo's back.
It's really quite easy, assuming you speak the lingo.
Anytime the subject of increased costs comes up, mention who's to blame, and that you hope they don't forget it, come next election.
I do it all the time, and invariably, there's a couple of guys there, who say, "he's right, you know", and they start remembering what the Hippo did.
We have to keep it fresh in their minds.
Certainly a lot belongs on Hippo! Who can argue with this. That doesn't mean you have to put blinders on to what Leonel does that is plain wrong and pushing this country in the wrong direction.

I will let you know when I become a sheep and don't comment on the perfectly obvious MISMANAGEMENT that goes on in Leonels presidency by LEONEL. Until then I will speak out on his Fuel conservancy that is going to wreck TOURISM which happens to be what drives this country.

This thread reminds me of the thread in the Mars and Venus forum "Only good stories about your Sankies". That was a crock of shlt also.

Only people that are doing well are those that are charging the same prices for things as they did when the Peso was in the 50's. Hmmm...