Bio-Ethical Questions

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El Hijo de Manolo

It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous!
Dec 10, 2021
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I am waiting for governments to enforce time limits upon vaccine "expirations" for travel. Even then I might not travel until such a rule goes away. That is the only way I might be forced to get a 5th shot. Otherwise I am 4 and done.
Interesting. Hyper-dosing on unprecedented genetic vaccines. Makes you wonder what's coming down the human DNA pike at this rate. Remember the movie where a "scientist" was playing with extrahuman Genetic material? Didn't work out so well for him. Bzzzzzzzz
 
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windeguy

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Omicron the last? But wait, there is more, no how much would you pay?

Even before Omicron hit the United States in full force, most of our bodies had already wised up to SARS-CoV-2’s insidious spike—through infection, injection, or both. By the end of October 2021, some 86.2 percent of American immune systems may have glimpsed the virus’s most infamous protein, according to one estimate; now, as Omicron adds roughly 800,000 known cases to the national roster each day, the cohort of spike-zero Americans, the truly immunologically naive, is shrinking fast. Virginia Pitzer, an epidemiologist at Yale’s School of Public Health and one of the scientists who arrived at the 86.2 percent estimate, has a guess for what fraction of the U.S. population will have had some experience with the spike protein when the Omicron wave subsides: 90 to 95 percent.



The close of Omicron’s crush, then, should bring the country one step closer to hitting a COVID equilibrium in which SARS-CoV-2’s still around, but disrupting our lives far less. In the most optimistic view of our future, this surge could be seen as a turning point in the country’s population-level protection. Omicron’s reach could be so comprehensive that, as some have forecasted, this wave ends up being the pandemic’s last.



Read: The worst of the Omicron wave could still be coming



But there is reason to believe that this ultra-sunny forecast won’t come to pass. “This wave will not be the last,” Shane Crotty, of the La Jolla Institute of Immunology, told me. “There are not many things that I am willing to be pretty confident about. But that’s one of them.” A new antibody-dodging variant, for one, could still show up to clobber us. And nearly everyone having some form of spike in their past isn’t as protective as it might sound. In a few months’ time, American immune systems will be better acquainted with SARS-CoV-2’s spike than they’ve ever been. But 90 to 95 percent of people exposed doesn’t translate to 90 to 95 percent protected from ever getting infected or sick again; more immune doesn’t have to mean immune enough. By the time the country exits this wave, each of our bodies will be in radically different immunological spots—some stronger, some weaker, some fresher, some staler. Chart that out by demography and geography, and the defensive matrix only gets more complex: Certain communities will have built up higher anti-COVID walls than others, which will remain relatively vulnerable. The malleability of the virus and the United States’ patchwork approach to combatting it has always meant that COVID would spread unevenly. Now the sums of those decisions will be reflected by our immunity. They’ll dictate how our next tussle with the virus unfolds—and who may have to bear the brunt of it.

--------------------------


The above patchwork approach applies not to my home country , but the world. It is like trying to stop a tidal wave. Impossible.
 

Ecoman1949

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For those of touting money as a driving factor in health care -

How is would that be addressed in socialized medicine countries ?

Countries like the UK already practise a more subtle form of triage known as god lists. The doctors decide who is eligible for a transplant and their ranking on the list. A heavy smoker is lower on the list for a lung transplant than a non smoker. That’s just one example. Heart transplants are another. Healthy people are higher on the list. Basically the lists dictate who lives and who dies based on the resources available.

All hospitals certified to handle mass casualty emergencies include triage as part of their certification. Physicians are uncomfortable playing god but the triage standard operating procedures allow them to do so. It’s not a single person call. It’s a team decision. A wartime application developed to save soldiers lives now applied to civilian situations. Not a position I would like to be in but one physicians have to be in when situations warrant triage.

I’ve participated in two mock environmental disasters involving hospitals. It was an eye opener.

A kind of covert triage is happening in Canadian hospitals now WW. Since the pandemic started, an estimated 20,000 Canadians requiring lifesaving surgery have died because of Covid patients swamping their hospital systems. The government has thrown more money at the problem but people are still dying waiting for surgeries. One province is now paying to send 300 patients requiring spinal surgery to a US hospital across the border.
 
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william webster

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Going to the US for treatment from Canada as one example.

In a couple of months, I think this is going to be a moot point as peak CV19 should be "here" soon.
Windy... you're talking HUGE money - given the cost of the US health system.

The various provinces actually fly sick people home from FLA to avoid the exorbitant costs.

Since I wrote - I see EcoMan has added a wrinkle to it...... it shows the desperation and crowded hospitals
 

Ecoman1949

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Windy... you're talking HUGE money - given the cost of the US health system.

The various provinces actually fly sick people home from FLA to avoid the exorbitant costs.

Since I wrote - I see EcoMan has added a wrinkle to it...... it shows the desperation and crowded hospitals

Bill. Current Health Canada stats confirm what your saying. Their stats show that the majority of Canadians using US medical services tend to be those living near the border who cross to get diagnostic and imaging services. Rarely do they cross for surgeries. Some US citizens will cross to get services in Canada because they are less expensive and they get a break on the health plans. A lot of the US citizens who cross get cheaper drugs in Canada. Insulin, for example, is 10 times more expensive in the US than Canada.

The province paying to send their citizens to a US hospital near their border is a fire fighting measure, not the norm. A Covid chess game.
 

Ecoman1949

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My wife's uncle was flown back to ON by the province from FLA....
They wouldn't pay for his care in Naples

I have a $100,000 medivac clause in my federal retiree health insurance. In a worst case scenario, a flight medivac service based in Montreal will pick me up in the DR and fly me home for treatment. If I’m able to fly on my own, they will provide a nursing assistant and cover flight costs. Less to worry about when I’m risking life and limb driving in the DR. 😆
 

flyinroom

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I assume doctors everywhere must take the Hippocratic oath derived from Greece ?
So there should be no doubt that they should not bar treatment.
It is only because of politics that they have been shaped, threatened, literally had financial cudgels hung over their heads, denied hospital access or had licenses threatened that they would come to any other conclusion that to administer to the sick.

The World will look back soon to regret many actions taken in this scamdemic

The Hippocratic Oath (Modern Version)
I SWEAR in the presence of the Almighty and before my family, my teachers and my peers that according to my ability and judgment I will keep this Oath and Stipulation.
TO RECKON all who have taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents and in the same spirit and dedication to impart a knowledge of the art of medicine to others. I will continue with diligence to keep abreast of advances in medicine. I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby, and I will seek the counsel of particularly skilled physicians where indicated for the benefit of my patient.
I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous. I will neither prescribe nor administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life.
WITH PURITY, HOLINESS AND BENEFICENCE I will pass my life and practice my art. Except for the prudent correction of an imminent danger, I will neither treat any patient nor carry out any research on any human being without the valid informed consent of the subject or the appropriate legal protector thereof, understanding that research must have as its purpose the furtherance of the health of that individual. Into whatever patient setting I enter, I will go for the benefit of the sick and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief or corruption and further from the seduction of any patient.
WHATEVER IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not in connection with it I may see or hear in the lives of my patients which ought not be spoken abroad, I will not divulge, reckoning that all such should be kept secret. WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art and science of medicine with the blessing of the Almighty and respected by my peers and society, but should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse by my lot.

Somebody here referred to this so-called modern version of the Hippocratic Oath as outdated and irrelevant.
Hah.
That is about the kindest, gentlest thing it could be called.
I wonder if Chico Bill might elaborate on the origin of this "version".
Honestly?
It sounds a little sketchy to me.
By the way...
For anyone looking for the most updated and modernized "oath" signed onto by a majority of physicians around the world...
It is now referred to as The Physician's Pledge
Check out the 2017 WMA update to the Declaration of Geneva that itself was an update to the Hippocratic Oath.


This pledge contains...
No politics.
No religion.
As it should not.
 

flyinroom

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The Physician’s Pledge

AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:
I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to dedicate my life to the service of humanity;
THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
I WILL RESPECT the autonomy and dignity of my patient;
I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I WILL PRACTISE my profession with conscience and dignity and in accordance with good medical practice;
I WILL FOSTER the honour and noble traditions of the medical profession;
I WILL GIVE to my teachers, colleagues, and students the respect and gratitude that is their due;
I WILL SHARE my medical knowledge for the benefit of the patient and the advancement of healthcare;
I WILL ATTEND TO my own health, well-being, and abilities in order to provide care of the highest standard;
I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely, and upon my honour.





 
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Big

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Here is the oath that most if not all Doctors adhere too; Money talks and Bull shit walks!
 
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windeguy

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The Physician’s Pledge

AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:
I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to dedicate my life to the service of humanity;
THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
I WILL RESPECT the autonomy and dignity of my patient;
I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I WILL PRACTISE my profession with conscience and dignity and in accordance with good medical practice;
I WILL FOSTER the honour and noble traditions of the medical profession;
I WILL GIVE to my teachers, colleagues, and students the respect and gratitudSince e that is their due;
I WILL SHARE my medical knowledge for the benefit of the patient and the advancement of healthcare;
I WILL ATTEND TO my own health, well-being, and abilities in order to provide care of the highest standard;
I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely, and upon my honour.





Since the above is not used, it is a moot point.

Carry on with prioritizing the vaxed vs unvaxed. A very slippery slope indeed.
 

flyinroom

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Canada has a patchwork of triage policies but most follow a fairly standard checklist of priorities designed to maximize benefits and minimize loss of life. Doctors first decide which patients have the best chances of pulling through. If they have to choose between two patients needing treatment and facing roughly equal odds of survival, they'll usually give priority to the patient they judge to have the most years of life ahead of them.

"Where I see some disagreement within the community of bioethicists is precisely on this point — can we use vaccination status as one criterion within triage protocols?" said Ravitsky.

"If we have two patients with the same level of clinical need, same age, same context, but one is vaccinated and one isn't, could we de-prioritize the patient who is unvaccinated by choice? There is a minority of bioethicists who are becoming more accepting of this logic at this point in time."

The above quote is copied from the o.p. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-triage-omicron-1.6319844)

If I am an emergency room physician and two people present in my emergency department.
Both are experiencing respiratory difficulty.
One is vaxxed and the other is not.
I have access to only only one ventilator.
I choose to put the vaxxed patient on the ventilator.
Could it not be argued that, based on historical statistical trends, my vaxxed patient has a better chance of survival than does my unvaxxed patient...
That the decision taken to de-prioritize the unvaxxed was not a punishment or consequence of his/her choice to not vax but rather a simple reality that the vaxxed had a better chance of survival and thus had more years of life ahead of them?
 
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bob saunders

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The above quote is copied from the o.p. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-vaccine-triage-omicron-1.6319844)

If I am an emergency room physician and two people present in my emergency department.
Both are experiencing respiratory difficulty.
One is vaxxed and the other is not.
I have access to only only one ventilator.
I choose to put the vaxxed patient on the ventilator.
Could it not be argued that, based on historical statistical trends, my vaxxed patient has a better chance of survival than does my unvaxxed patient...
That the decision taken to de-prioritize the unvaxxed was not a punishment or consequence of his/her choice to not vax but rather a simple reality that the vaxxed had a better chance of survival and thus had more years of life ahead of them?
Actually the vaxed patient would probably not need the ventilator so the more prudent move would to put the unvaxed on the ventilator to try and save both.
 

El Hijo de Manolo

It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous!
Dec 10, 2021
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Just an FYI, Hijo.... keeping you up to speed

Classic, just classic.... more to come , for sure
You know i think of you as a rich uncle that may some day loan me a fortune but what I see you doing is posting controversy and basically telling the forum to "have at it". Entertain me and let's hear your side of the ethics question. How do you feel about the guy denied of the heart transplant? Do you feel vaxxed should be triaged first? Love ya W²!
 
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