Building an Inexpensive APARTMENT --3 questions

[pi2]

Apartment features.

I purchased an apartment in LT some time ago after viewing many.

Features of the original design that have been good:

High ceiling ( up to 20 feet ) with a vented apex.

Raised bathroom floor so water flows out ( or to a drain ).

Eaves extending over windows so although there is light sun after 9 o clock never falls in.

Good double sink; fitted kitchen with concrete / tile worktop not wood.

Sliding aluminium framed windows

Electric - plenty of points

Features of the original design that have been bad:

Dark floor tiles - these absorb heat and I have replaced these with near white shiny large tiles.

Roof a dark color - interior thermal insulation will be installed.

Poor door - fitted another metal security door

No storage space - loft area constructed

Shower is difficult to clean due to design and tiles.

I expect many of these points have been taken care of by the architect.

pi2

 

[Criss Colon]

"EXPECT", a word you should not use in the same sentence with "DOMINICAN"!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[SantiagoDR]

After studying Chip's excellent original thread on homebuilding the DR way and following his advice and that of JaguarBob and Bob in Jarabacoa, I'm now building a 2 story studio apartment (first floor will just be open garage for now)

I have an outstanding maestro and the second floor was poured a couple days ago-- I was going to send the following 3 questions privately to the two Bob's; however...I would welcome any and all advice from those of you who have "been there---done that!" -

1. What building mistakes did you make that you would warn a first-time builder not to repeat?
2. Any leads on where we can buy louvered glass windows and sliding glass doors?
3. JagBob: We're paying $323/bag for cement (in Las Terrenas) and you said you paid $250-- Where and when did you pay those prices and can we also buy from that supplier?

Muchas, muchas gracias for your time!:bunny:
Susan

A reputable Maestro (Engineer) usually has an account with one or more ferreter?as.
He does not pay the same prices YOU pay.

Mine had an account with OchoA here in Santiago and was given discounts on everything he bought.

My Engineer extended that courtesy to me and told me anything I wanted to buy there, just tell them it was for his account and I would get the best price. (I always paid cash at OchoA) This you do with the sales reps, not at the checkouts.

Besides that, if you are paying CASH, OchoA will give you a discount, not much, but still a savings.

In the D.R., ALWAYS ask for a discount when paying cash!

Even La Sirena gave me discounts on large items I purchased in years past (Not sure if they still do), you need to deal with the salesman, not the check out clerks.

PS: For those that do not know, ALL farmacias will give you a discount for cash, but YOU must ask for it.

Darn, I wish I spoke Spanish so I would know all this stuff !!!!!!

Don

 

[Criss Colon]

I bought 20 Sony TVs at "Paza Lama" many years ago.Inegotiated a good price.
When I WENT BACK AND PAID,THEY TOLD ME iHAD A 6,000 peso credit.
I called the CFO where I worked and ask what to do with the "credit".
He said, "Get something you want,and take it home."
What A Country!
I got a "DeWalt",7 ich.,circular saw.
I wish I could say I still have that saw,but it was "STOLEN"!
"Don't you just hate "THIEVES"??????????????????????????????
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[SantiagoDR]

I bought 20 Sony TVs at "Paza Lama" many years ago.Inegotiated a good price.
When I WENT BACK AND PAID,THEY TOLD ME iHAD A 6,000 peso credit.
I called the CFO where I worked and ask what to do with the "credit".
He said, "Get something you want,and take it home."
What A Country!
I got a "DeWalt",7 ich.,circular saw.
I wish I could say I still have that saw,but it was "STOLEN"!
"Don't you just hate "THIEVES"??????????????????????????????
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Must be something about circular saws in the D.R., mine got up and walked away also.


Don

 

[Chip]

Regardless, you said that your client wanted to do everything the right way so it seems unusual that you decided not to include the pension/social security estimate just in case. The fact that you believe that this occurred is "hit or miss" coupled with the fact that you think $60k is a reasonable negotiation, leads me to believe that you do not have very much experience in building houses in Santiago.

So Chip, please tell how many complete houses have YOU, not your maestro, not your laborers, but YOU built in Santiago as a builder?

Rather why don't you tell me your building experience?

I am a civil engineer and have lived here almost 6 years and am in the PUCMM university studying Construction Administration and speak the language fairly fluently for a gringo.

Furthermore, you guys are hammering me for RD60k when we are talking about a project that has a normal value of at least RD6M here in Santiago. Let me do the math for you then. RD6M-RD4M + 60k = RD1,940,000 savings to the client.

 

[susan77]

As the OP of this thread, I am VERY disappointed it has devolved into a series of personal attacks and I would greatly appreciate it if we could get back on track.... I need advice on what TO DO and what NOT to do as we build our studio apartment..

I really liked the advice abt concrete curing, plumbing caveats, Induca for windows, the list of good/bad things abt poster's apt in LT; high ceiling, etc. and would love more of this type of advice--

A few more details: I pay maestro 1000/day, block man 800, other workers 500-- I also provide morning coffee (con mucho azucar!! bottled water and ice, 100/per person comida and afterwork cerveza on Saturday--
We pay cement rebar, etc as it is delivered...

I'm still looking for source of windows and doors closer to LT than Induca in Sto Dom--- Are there homebuilding stores in Nagua? And is 323 a decent price for cement?

Anywho....it's another rainy day in LT, but at least it helps the concrete CURE!!
Thanks again.....Susan

 

[bob saunders]

Vidrios & Ventanas Odalis in Nagua or San Francisco De Macoris. I've seen several large building supply stores in San Francisco de Marcoris ( it is the closest city to LT)

 

[Chip]

Gosh, it would be a thousand times better if you could post pictures of the progress, instead of the finished project.

There's a lot of things that can't be seen in a finished project picture (plumbing installation, wiring, rebar work, etc)

It would also be great for the OP to see how things should "look" as she progresses.

We have some pictures of course but they are not up close. Nonetheless, the owner's cousin who is an engineer came over and saw the pouring of the foundation and saw all the rebar and was impressed with the quality. In fact he said he had never seen anything built so well. The rebars are also tied at every juncture and all the materials come from the Ferreteria Ochoa so we don't have to worry about quality.

 

[Bronxboy]

As the OP of this thread, I am VERY disappointed it has devolved into a series of personal attacks and I would greatly appreciate it if we could get back on track.

Deleted personal attacks between Chip and SantiagioDR.

This stops now.

 

[SantiagoDR]

.... I really liked the advice abt concrete curing, plumbing caveats, Induca for windows, the list of good/bad things abt poster's apt in LT; high ceiling, etc. and would love more of this type of advice-- ............

Anywho....it's another rainy day in LT, but at least it helps the concrete CURE!!
Thanks again.....Susan

I'm glad to have helped. I learned that the hard way, I was not in the D.R. at the time the roofs were poured.
But did remember seeing in the States at commercial construction sites of them keeping the floors wet.
Little did I realize at the time that they did not do that in the D.R very often.

The Dominican folks taking care of my home when we were still working in the States decided to build their own home and I advised them of the curing process of concrete. Today, he has the only home in our little section where the roof does not suffer from what the Dominicans call "filtraci?n".

I discussed with my wife today about the problems of construction here and she remarked about how often I had to correct the Maestros (Their workers) in what they were doing.

Do not assume the Maestro is correct, watch them closely, especially when it comes to alignment of walls, etc.

Don

 

[lisagauss]

Just wanted to clear things up about my post about the $60KDR in expenses for Pension and Social Security. When the house plans where 'legalized' by the ayuntamiento basically what happens is that that information is sent to other departments of the ayuntamiento: Social Security and Pension Offices. This is why the inspector went to the site, they already new the names of the owners of the property. How do I know this? Well, I called a friend of mine who is a lawyer and he did all the 'deligencias' for me as I am in the US. He when and spoke to each department and they explained to him what happened. Here is the actual breakdown...

$28,680RD - Insurance (This was optional but recommended by friends of mine)
$25,565RD - Workers Pension (This includes late fees because the site was issued a notice)
$10,000RD - What my lawyer charged me, seems like a lot yes but he had to get a power of attorney.

As far as Chip goes or the Maestro they were in no way involved in this as this was dealt directly with the Ayuntamiento. As Chip earlier stated yes we agreed to do everything the legal way, which meant obtaining approved plans by the ayuntamiento. Am I happy that I had to pay these fees? Of course not! I wouldn't mind paying if I knew that this was actually going to benefit the workers; but DR is DR y hay muchos, muchos gatos.

Also, I want to clear up that I have been working with Chip since the start of September, he is building my house in Santiago. Before the project started we agreed on a price estimate. As the project progressed the price has slightly varied but this is expected of any project. Materials increase, and also other situations arise, but so far the increase has been fairly minimal. We are currently $$42,667RD above the original estimate. How do I know this? Chip and I share an Excel spreadsheet which we update as the project goes along. So if we estimated buying cement at $250 per bag but the price went up to $300 per bag, the Excel Spreadsheet is updated. Using this spreadsheet gives me a lot of control and knowledge as to what is going in to the project. So far I am very happy with the project. A friend of mine who is an Engineer in DR visited the site and was impressed with the work.
A quick story...After I bough the land in Santiago I had consulted 2 dominican Engineers and asked them to give me a quote for a 1 story house that was already built in Gurabo. They each gave me the same price $3.5MRD. Mind you, neither of them took any measurements, sat down to do calculations or took more than 1 hour to give me that price. They pretty much based it on the fact that they had probably already had built houses like that and knew how much it had cost them. So I met Chip in this forum and spoke to him after reading his thread about building houses the cheap way in DR. He made calculations, presented me with an Excel spreadsheet of all expenses, INCLUDING HOW MUCH HE AND THE MAESTRO CONSTRUCTOR WERE GOING TO MAKE. That impressed me because neither of the 2 original Engineers ever spoke about how much they were going to make on the project. In the end, I am getting a 2 story house with 100 sq meters more than I had originally estimated for about $500KRD more.

I don't want to make this sound like a 'sales pitch' for Chip, but that is the truth. So far so good.

 

[Chip]

Just wanted to clear things up about my post about the $60KDR in expenses for Pension and Social Security. When the house plans where 'legalized' by the ayuntamiento basically what happens is that that information is sent to other departments of the ayuntamiento: Social Security and Pension Offices. This is why the inspector went to the site, they already new the names of the owners of the property. How do I know this? Well, I called a friend of mine who is a lawyer and he did all the 'deligencias' for me as I am in the US. He when and spoke to each department and they explained to him what happened. Here is the actual breakdown...

$28,680RD - Insurance (This was optional but recommended by friends of mine)
$25,565RD - Workers Pension (This includes late fees because the site was issued a notice)
$10,000RD - What my lawyer charged me, seems like a lot yes but he had to get a power of attorney.

As far as Chip goes or the Maestro they were in no way involved in this as this was dealt directly with the Ayuntamiento. As Chip earlier stated yes we agreed to do everything the legal way, which meant obtaining approved plans by the ayuntamiento. Am I happy that I had to pay these fees? Of course not! I wouldn't mind paying if I knew that this was actually going to benefit the workers; but DR is DR y hay muchos, muchos gatos.

Also, I want to clear up that I have been working with Chip since the start of September, he is building my house in Santiago. Before the project started we agreed on a price estimate. As the project progressed the price has slightly varied but this is expected of any project. Materials increase, and also other situations arise, but so far the increase has been fairly minimal. We are currently $$42,667RD above the original estimate. How do I know this? Chip and I share an Excel spreadsheet which we update as the project goes along. So if we estimated buying cement at $250 per bag but the price went up to $300 per bag, the Excel Spreadsheet is updated. Using this spreadsheet gives me a lot of control and knowledge as to what is going in to the project. So far I am very happy with the project. A friend of mine who is an Engineer in DR visited the site and was impressed with the work.
A quick story...After I bough the land in Santiago I had consulted 2 dominican Engineers and asked them to give me a quote for a 1 story house that was already built in Gurabo. They each gave me the same price $3.5MRD. Mind you, neither of them took any measurements, sat down to do calculations or took more than 1 hour to give me that price. They pretty much based it on the fact that they had probably already had built houses like that and knew how much it had cost them. So I met Chip in this forum and spoke to him after reading his thread about building houses the cheap way in DR. He made calculations, presented me with an Excel spreadsheet of all expenses, INCLUDING HOW MUCH HE AND THE MAESTRO CONSTRUCTOR WERE GOING TO MAKE. That impressed me because neither of the 2 original Engineers ever spoke about how much they were going to make on the project. In the end, I am getting a 2 story house with 100 sq meters more than I had originally estimated for about $500KRD more.

I don't want to make this sound like a 'sales pitch' for Chip, but that is the truth. So far so good.

Thanks for clearing things up.

I would like to add that the RD3.6M quoted would have been for a one story house with maybe a maximum area of 205 sqm as opposed to what we are delivering at 250 sqm at RD4M and we are using undoubtedly only the best materials and construction practices. The method we are utilizing is "cost plus" where the client sees all of the costs and we charge an administrative fee which is a lot less than the going rates from my research with other companies and my classmates at PUCMM who are civil engineers and work in the same area.

 

[Chip]

I would like to add the maestro in question for this project while being Dominican of course was trained and worked for an American missionary Organization for over 10 years building churches and orphanages all over the DR and Haiti up to 4 stories. He always has worked by construction plans and was taught how to do quantity and labor estimates. The referenced organization was Go Ministries here in Santiago.

 

[Chip]

I would like to also apologize for getting emotional and making a personal attack but I feel like the unprovoked, constant and long going criticism of most of my posts would jeopardize what I hope to be my main income source here in the DR. I am a registered professional civil engineer with a business in Florida but that business is generating very little income now. I am also in PUCMM university getting a masters in construction administration to one day also work in the university as a professor. I also have been married to a Dominican women for 11 years and we have three girls who are the light of my life. So again I apologize for my behavior.

 

[Gordon]

OP you say you welcome all and any advice. Here goes. Worrying about saving a few pesos on your cement costs are the least of your potential problems:

To start with you do not have an outstanding maestro. Well he is outstanding but at con-struction not construction. The same maestro built a two story building for me that became a source of constant sorrow and additional cost. He is a smooth talker and relies on others, some good and some bad tradespeople, and he has a hard time knowing the different. Lets start with the roof. I have done major repairs at my own expense three times already to find and repair leaks. Expensive repairs that had I used a qualified maestro they would be unnnessary.

The electrical was a disaster as he had no idea how to qualify electricians and the grounds were non-existent. It was ok at first but then he brought in some cheaper and lessor skilled tradespeople later. It is very expensive to repair electrical after the fact with masonary contruction and particularly when the maestro thinks you can take shortcuts.

The front entrance and steps to the second level were a disaster and I had to get him to remove them and they were redone (again at my expense) with a new tradesperson I hired to do them properly. He laughed at the incompetence of my maestro.

The plumbing was a nightmare and he did not understand even basic principles like installing the main pump near the main cistern. I had to modify the entire water system after I got rid of him, again at considerable expense.

Most of my tools he was responsible for are now missing.

Even though he constantly said the paperwork was coming, it never did. There was always an excuse of some sort. He has no idea how to do a contract, estimate, costing or design and actually discourages bringing in others that might be more knowledgeable . He was very persistent in me firing my architect early and I foolishly did. Many times I forced him to get proper permits and permissions. He had no idea how to handle payroll and benefits and I continually had worker problems as a direct result.

I finally got rid of him when I had the opportunity to actually prove he used some of my goods for his personal use ($150 of goods he stole from us). He was forced to either leave gracefully or we would go to the police. He signed off with a lawyer with full wages and benefits (more than due even a good maestro) but he felt jilted as he could no longer continue milking me and my equipment. He now uses intimidaton and crooked lawyer tactics and continues on his route of harrasement. If you are an inexperienced expat he and his wife love that. They operated as a team with me.

I have lots of additional information about fiscals, sex, courts, intimidation and even violence by this maestro but as you previously indicated you only want to hear the positive things. I might decide to tell my story in another thread. It is worth telling if someone else is protected from people like him. Many could also benefit by knowing how a con works to the unitiated. It can result in major costs and danger to personal health. It is fascinating actually how good people get swept up and into the con and the difficulty in recognizing and getting out again. It is almost always very painful for the ones being conned, it was and still is for us.

 

[Squat]

@Gordon: What's his name ? (so we let LT folks know...)

 

[Bigocean]

After studying Chip's excellent original thread on homebuilding the DR way and following his advice and that of JaguarBob and Bob in Jarabacoa, I'm now building a 2 story studio apartment (first floor will just be open garage for now)

I have an outstanding maestro and the second floor was poured a couple days ago-- I was going to send the following 3 questions privately to the two Bob's; however...I would welcome any and all advice from those of you who have "been there---done that!" -

1. What building mistakes did you make that you would warn a first-time builder not to repeat?
2. Any leads on where we can buy louvered glass windows and sliding glass doors?
3. JagBob: We're paying $323/bag for cement (in Las Terrenas) and you said you paid $250-- Where and when did you pay those prices and can we also buy from that supplier?

Muchas, muchas gracias for your time!:bunny:
Susan

Well, this is actually pre-construction, but make sure that you have a deslinde on the property before you invest in the building or you could be building for someone else!

 

[Gordon]

Hi Squat. That time is coming but it is not here yet. So much of this is current and in the courts still. If you have a project in LT coming up and want to know to "avoid", PM me for now. Regretfully we are also still in danger of further retaliation, even though they are the ones pressing the current charges. Criminal charges are still under consideration by me as this plays out. In the normal world you "get your day in court". Here it is more like "I still get my day after court".

The reason this conversation is still relevant to this thread is all the resulting pain and cost is directly connected to the original construction project as well as the greed of this particular maestro. If you do not go through a reputable firm because you want to save a peso, it can cost you dearly beyond your wildest estimations.

 

[lisagauss]

Well, this is actually pre-construction, but make sure that you have a deslinde on the property before you invest in the building or you could be building for someone else!

So true! A deslinde now a days must actually be done when a change of title is done, I believe. It takes a bit of time but it is very much worth it.