Building an Inexpensive APARTMENT --3 questions

[Bigocean]

Thanks for clearing things up.

I would like to add that the RD3.6M quoted would have been for a one story house with maybe a maximum area of 205 sqm as opposed to what we are delivering at 250 sqm at RD4M and we are using undoubtedly only the best materials and construction practices. The method we are utilizing is "cost plus" where the client sees all of the costs and we charge an administrative fee which is a lot less than the going rates from my research with other companies and my classmates at PUCMM who are civil engineers and work in the same area.

Actually this is also offered by every builder that I have ever heard of in Santiago as well. The people who choose a "fixed price" for completion usually do so as they are financing the construction and the bank requires a final, total completed price.

 

[Chip]

Actually this is also offered by every builder that I have ever heard of in Santiago as well. The people who choose a "fixed price" for completion usually do so as they are financing the construction and the bank requires a final, total completed price.

This method certainly is not offered by "every" builder because I know various but rather is something that is more common to be offered by engineers so they don't have to put in the initial capital of the investment. I'm interested how you came up with this idea - are you a builder or engineer?

Finally, you seem to be critical or skeptical of our management but have as of yet willing to acknowledge the price and quality and honesty we are offering. I'm sure at the end of the day if the client receives what they expected at well below the market rate they will be completely satisfied, which is our goal.

 

[Chip]

It's what I've worked with as well.

"Here's X amount to start. Give me receipts for that amount, and I'll give you X amount again, plus a % of your admin. costs."

Like I said this is more common among engineers as opposed to contratistas or constructoras. In fact none of the constructoras I've talked to used the method I discussed.

Maybe there is some confusion here, we don't ask for money up front and work "against it" but rather the client receives an invoice from us with all the cost detailed such as the materials, labor and subcontracted work with our markup. Also, we usually bill for labor every two weeks or so and are working against a budget with a maximum limit. All this imo grants a greater deal of transparency.

Also, the original proposal has all the materials, labor and subcontracted work with our percentage as well done from plans we prepare during the initial phase AT NO COST (who else offers that?) with the clients input. While we expect the materials to change as the cost will increase we expect the labor and contract work to hold constant, and in fact have only gone over a very minor amount. Also, the final construction plans done by the registered architect and engineers may dictate minor changes as well.

Finally, with our almost 30+ years experience combined in construction we recommend allowing for a contingency of between 5 and 10%. In fact this is standard in the States and even a higher number is used more commonly. Therefore, here in the DR with "issues" so prevalent, why should we not expect anything different? Still, at this point in the project I expect us to be well below the 5% contingency mark.

I think if you guys analyze what you have seen it will come up significantly different than what we are offering. In summary, the plans development at no cost to the client that fits their particular needs and the lot in question and the level of transparency not to mention honesty and quality workmanship and at a price well below the market rate.

Therefore, please let me know any constructora in this country that can do all that for 15% or less in the country and I will gladly eat my hat.

 

[Chip]

We're pretty much saying the same thing.

The only difference is, the two weeks of work is on your dime, as opposed to me giving you two weeks of expense money upfront.

So you offer the following:

1. conceptual plans development with floor plans and elevations at NO COST
2. provide invoices and backup with running totals of costs detailed showing every item
3. coordinate with architect/engineer registered in the country for the required permitting to get the best price
4. Investigate around town for the best deals and quality on finish materials(roofing, tiles, bathtubs, sinks)
5. multiple years of construction experience here in the DR and abroad

...and provide this for 15%?

If you can do this I'm happy for you.

Still this is not common here in the DR and it is wrong to claim otherwise. Certainly, some can offer some of the features we offer but I doubt not all even discounting the US experience.

Finally, anybody who thinks working "against" money is preferable is opening themselves up for abuse here in the DR in my opinion.

 

[bayaguanaman]

Just my 2 cents worth : I agree the concrete should be kept moist to ensure proper curing, also if you can (especially on really hot days), have the mason wet the blocks before laying, again this will help the cement mortar from losing it's moisture as the block acts like a sponge.

When the mason gets his team to do the panette ( not sure of the spelling), or cement render, insist he wets the block in advance, ie. give the wall a good hose down BEFORE he commences, for the same reasons above. I spent some time explaining why the lap on the rebar was a necessity Dia x36 minimum, but had to keep reworking BEFORE placing the concrete, in the end I refused to allow the pours until I had signed off.

LAstly, if you can, buy your concrete from a batching plant, and if possible with temp control, ensure the aggregates are not without shade (they will get baking hot), but can also be problematic. I bought my concrete 3000psi from the capital for my pool base, and instructed the mix with fiberglass reinforcement to avoid shrinkage problems, the " batcher" forgot to send the 14 bags of fibre with the 1st truck, after an argument with the driver and the pump boom operator, they dispatched a car from SD to Bayaguana which arrived 3 hrs after the printed batch release time, so I refused the concrete, sent the 2nd without fibre, but the timing was such I could utilize the fibre for the 1st truck in the 2nd, and had a fresh 10 yds delivered within the placement time allowed, with fibre, in the end all was ok, but had I not have been present, the concrete would have gone in without any reinforcement at all. Best advice, as said in earlier posts, be there every day, 2-3 times a day and have hold instructions on the critical activity until you or your engineer / architect can review and approve. Hope this helps.

 

[Criss Colon]

I think vthat Chip and his associado are offering good work.
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[Bigocean]

This method certainly is not offered by "every" builder because I know various but rather is something that is more common to be offered by engineers so they don't have to put in the initial capital of the investment. I'm interested how you came up with this idea - are you a builder or engineer?

Finally, you seem to be critical or skeptical of our management but have as of yet willing to acknowledge the price and quality and honesty we are offering. I'm sure at the end of the day if the client receives what they expected at well below the market rate they will be completely satisfied, which is our goal.

To begin with Chip, let me say that I am not attacking you or in any way trying to insult you or your business. Maybe this disclaimer will prevent this post from being deleted as before. I do however happen to disagree with some to the issues that you state as fact. I think that you are offering misleading and biased statements with your posts. And you very obviously do not like anyone to disagree with you. To me you seem very inexperienced at home construction in the Dominican Republic.

So, something that I believe will make everything much clearer (and especially since you offer your experience as one of your qualifications),

please tell how many houses have you, not the maestro, not the laborers, but you have constructed in Santiago, Dominican Republic

 

[Hipocrito Mejia]

From my personal experience with building a house in Santiago 7 years ago, I can tell you that I would have appreciated the expertise of someone like Chip during the process. The reason that I state this, is because he brings a different set of skills and point of view than that of most Dominican builders. I oversaw my project to the best of my ability, but I'm not anywhere nearly as qualified for such a thing; yet the mistakes that I had to correct were many.

We have all seen the results of common construction mistakes on houses/buildings in DR. Things such as structutal issues due to improper use of rebar, bad concrete mix; leaks from improperly poured/cured concrete; ungrounded electrical; plumbing issues, improper fit and finishes, and more.

I think that anyone with Chip's skillset overseeing a Dominican construction crew, would be a plus, as long as the negotiated price for his services is fair.

 

[Chip]

To begin with Chip, let me say that I am not attacking you or in any way trying to insult you or your business. Maybe this disclaimer will prevent this post from being deleted as before. I do however happen to disagree with some to the issues that you state as fact. I think that you are offering misleading and biased statements with your posts. And you very obviously do not like anyone to disagree with you. To me you seem very inexperienced at home construction in the Dominican Republic.

So, something that I believe will make everything much clearer (and especially since you offer your experience as one of your qualifications),

please tell how many houses have you, not the maestro, not the laborers, but you have constructed in Santiago, Dominican Republic

You say that you are not attacking me and then post in bold asking to clarify my credentials in this area not to mention criticize me saying I know little about home building here in the DR even though we are doing one currently for a client who by all accounts is satisfied.

Anyway, the house we are currently building is our first home building project but I have been here since 2006 and I have been researching home building for some time.

You seem to insinuate that if I have not built a house by myself I can't possibly know what I am talking about and yet not all constructoras from what I've seen aren't architects or engineers but merely businessman who get clients and define the limits of the contract. In other words, why is it relevant if I don't know how do install plaster? That's what my business partner is for. I do know about the earthwork preparation and was present during the excavation and fill of the project in question. I also know how to read building plans but that's not really my role in this business. My role is to manage the interface with the client, create the contract and handle all billing and invoicing not to mention the quality control and scheduling as well. Still, I go to the project frequently and have reiterated a thousand times to my Dominican business partner that quality is everything and we won't be cutting any corners on rebars or cement or materials. I have complete faith in him as he worked with the Christian ministry I mentioned. I personally spoke with the owner and he says Anjito was by far the best maestro he had ever had and was well trained and qualified by American standards. Did I forget to mention I also developed the floor plan and that we worked on that for over three months, all at no cost?

The other part of my experience is derived from my ongoing masters program in Construction Administration. There are 23 students total and all but one is a civil engineer. Furthermore, most by far have full time jobs either as independent consultants or as paid employees. I have discussed contracts with a few of them and while it is true the cost plus method is used again it is mostly used to contract an engineer as opposed to a constructora and I doubt it is as developed and transparent as ours. They certainly aren't developing the customized conceptual floor plans and elevations at no cost. Finally, and maybe the most important is few are doing it at the price we are offering.

Finally, it is not a requirement in any engineering or construction firm I've ever worked for or heard of for the project manager, which would be my title, among others, to know how to do every component of what is required to complete a project as obviously by the time someone was able to get the experience for the different disciplines they would be too old too work. Rather, what is required is a general knowledge of engineering or maybe a specific area or a degree in the area of construction management. As far as my personal experience goes, I've never seen any Construction Administration graduates installing block on the job, yet they are charged to run typically large projects requiring the involvement of numerous disciplines.

Ok there you have it. I'd like to know about your experience as well and the firms you have contracted here.

 

[Taino808]

As an architect with over eight years of experience, and well over thirty plus houses already built, I believe that what Chip is offering is not the norm for uneducated maestro here in the DR.

One more thing; the curing of beams/rafters, column/pillars and concrete roofs could take up to seven (7) years depending on the thickness of the pour.

 

[Chip]

As an architect with over eight years of experience, and well over thirty plus houses already built, I believe that what Chip is offering is not the norm for uneducated maestro here in the DR.

One more thing; the curing of beams/rafters, column/pillars and concrete roofs could take up to seven (7) years depending on the thickness of the pour.

Taino

I understand you are a Dominican architect. My engineering friends have told me cost plus (costo de obra mas honorarios) is used but they say the role of the engineer is to administer the construction and not included everything that we include and the price is generally higher. The constructoras I've talked to give a budget to the client and maybe a detailed cost but don't generally reveal all their costs and their profit.

Please tell me your experience in this matter and if I am somehow mistaken.

Thanks

 

[DRob]

You say that you are not attacking me and then post in bold asking to clarify my credentials in this area not to mention criticize me saying I know little about home building here in the DR even though we are doing one currently for a client who by all accounts is satisfied.

Anyway, the house we are currently building is our first home building project but I have been here since 2006 and I have been researching home building for some time.

You seem to insinuate that if I have not built a house by myself I can't possibly know what I am talking about and yet not all constructoras from what I've seen aren't architects or engineers but merely businessman who get clients and define the limits of the contract. In other words, why is it relevant if I don't know how do install plaster? That's what my business partner is for. I do know about the earthwork preparation and was present during the excavation and fill of the project in question. I also know how to read building plans but that's not really my role in this business. My role is to manage the interface with the client, create the contract and handle all billing and invoicing not to mention the quality control and scheduling as well. Still, I go to the project frequently and have reiterated a thousand times to my Dominican business partner that quality is everything and we won't be cutting any corners on rebars or cement or materials. I have complete faith in him as he worked with the Christian ministry I mentioned. I personally spoke with the owner and he says Anjito was by far the best maestro he had ever had and was well trained and qualified by American standards. Did I forget to mention I also developed the floor plan and that we worked on that for over three months, all at no cost?

The other part of my experience is derived from my ongoing masters program in Construction Administration. There are 23 students total and all but one is a civil engineer. Furthermore, most by far have full time jobs either as independent consultants or as paid employees. I have discussed contracts with a few of them and while it is true the cost plus method is used again it is mostly used to contract an engineer as opposed to a constructora and I doubt it is as developed and transparent as ours. They certainly aren't developing the customized conceptual floor plans and elevations at no cost. Finally, and maybe the most important is few are doing it at the price we are offering.

Finally, it is not a requirement in any engineering or construction firm I've ever worked for or heard of for the project manager, which would be my title, among others, to know how to do every component of what is required to complete a project as obviously by the time someone was able to get the experience for the different disciplines they would be too old too work. Rather, what is required is a general knowledge of engineering or maybe a specific area or a degree in the area of construction management. As far as my personal experience goes, I've never seen any Construction Administration graduates installing block on the job, yet they are charged to run typically large projects requiring the involvement of numerous disciplines.

Ok there you have it. I'd like to know about your experience as well and the firms you have contracted here.

Chip,

I think his position was based on an earlier post by you where you asked him how much building or engineering experience in the DR he had. It appeared to discount his opinion in a general thread in an open forum.

If I recall, the OP asked for suggestions on how to save costs while building a quality apartment, not for folks to attack each other's credentials/experience.

 

[Chip]

Chip,

I think his position was based on an earlier post by you where you asked him how much building or engineering experience in the DR he had. It appeared to discount his opinion in a general thread in an open forum.

If I recall, the OP asked for suggestions on how to save costs while building a quality apartment, not for folks to attack each other's credentials/experience.

No offense but if you read from the beginning I simply stated something Bigocean said was "not true" and he responded sarcastically and asked me if I believe in the Easter Bunny. From there things got worse when another poster attacked my credentials. Needless to say both personal criticisms of me were not warranted I don't believe. As for the other poster that issue is resolved.

I have posted everything BO was asking for and I hope he can do the same. Forgive me for being skeptical of people talking about their experience here on DR for obvious reasons. Nonetheless, if they can specifically show where I am wrong and list constructoras that set up their contracts like we do, provide free conceptual plan development and all for 15% I will personally apologize. I've been wrong before on this forum and have apologized and no doubt will have to do it again sometime in the future, hopefully later rather than sooner.

 

[Taino808]

Taino

I understand you are a Dominican architect. My engineering friends have told me cost plus (costo de obra mas honorarios) is used but they say the role of the engineer is to administer the construction and not included everything that we include and the price is generally higher. The constructoras I've talked to give a budget to the client and maybe a detailed cost but don't generally reveal all their costs and their profit.

Please tell me your experience in this matter and if I am somehow mistaken.

Thanks

What we offer our clients is basically the same thing you offer, thus the reason why I agreed with you in my post above. However, we tend to build the project at total cost to us, then bill the client after the house/building has been finished, with previously signed contracts of course.

 

[Gordon]

"What building mistakes did you make that you would warn a first-time builder not to repeat?" was the OP question.

It does not always pay to take the first or unresearched "inexpensive" route. Hipocrito and Cobraboy have very valid points and it is reassuring to know there are some conciencious and qualified people available.

Anyone wanting to build something inexpensively is walking a thin line in this country and if there is money to be saved on items like cost of cement or construction by using an unqualified maestro, they should set the savings and more aside for their legal defense fund (and or payoff) near or after the end of the project. Also add in some additional reconstruction expenses for during and after the project. No plan or con tract on paper is a bonus to the con structor.

 

[Chip]

What we offer our clients is basically the same thing you offer, thus the reason why I agreed with you in my post above. However, we tend to build the project at total cost to us, then bill the client after the house/building has been finished, with previously signed contracts of course.

Thanks for the response.

What would you say is the average cost of construction per square meter "de primera" including all of the iron work, mahogany wood, architects fees, tramitacion and taxes?

 

[Taino808]

Thanks for the response.

What would you say is the average cost of construction per square meter "de primera" including all of the iron work, mahogany wood, architects fees, tramitacion and taxes?

The cost is more or less in the vicinity of $22,000 pesos. Without the iron work, this is not a service we provide. However, keep in mind that this price go's up depending on how far your construction site is from the inner city. Then again, you must know this.

 

[Chip]

The cost is more or less in the vicinity of $22,000 pesos. Without the iron work, this is not a service we provide. However, keep in mind that this price go's up depending on how far your construction site is from the inner city. Then again, you must know this.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Gordon]

Was trying to do the math with currency conversions and metric to sq ft but the old brain does not figure as well as it used to. Would it be fair to say that one could build quality construction here with quality contractors for less than 50% of North American costing?

 

[lisagauss]

Was trying to do the math with currency conversions and metric to sq ft but the old brain does not figure as well as it used to. Would it be fair to say that one could build quality construction here with quality contractors for less than 50% of North American costing?

I don't know about 50% but surely below what you would get here. I believe you can get a 2 story single family built in Florida for about $190KUS, translate this to DR and you get a little over $7MRD, you can get a really nice house for that amount in DR.