Carrying a Hangun For Defense

USBP1969

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Jul 7, 2007
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Hello folks.

When I discovered that my grand daughter was going to vacationing in Punta Cana I started reading as much as I could find regarding The Dominican Republic. One of those sources was DR1. I did searches on just about everything I could think of that might indicate how safe she might be and then posted, asking for input.

One search I did was on handguns. The results were in a word, ?Amazing.? Having served 15 of my 33 years in US Federal Law Enforcement as a full-time Firearms Instructor I have some pretty strong feelings on the subject. Teaching defensive weapon craft and defending the use of, or the carrying of, a sidearm are vastly different, and I must admit a lack of competence in the latter.

Today I received an email with a letter, written by a retired USMC Colonel, that succinctly addresses that issue.

Human beings only have three ways to deal with one another: request, reason and force. If someone wants me to do something for them, they have a choice of either asking me, convincing me via argument, or forcing me to do their bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those three categories, without exception. Request, reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, one cannot deal with me by force. They have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate their threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
To that I say: ?Amen.?
 

Mirador

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Apr 15, 2004
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To that I say: ?Amen.?
Just because this guy can write a very convincing essay "defending the use of, or the carrying of, a sidearm", doesn't mean he qualifies to carry one. He is just a good essay writer. Just like our NALs, who is a wizzard with statistics, but should we put him in charge of the DR economy? No way!!!
 

qgrande

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Jul 27, 2005
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As the Dominican Republic does not have a government that distributes firearms freely among its population to put everyone on equal footing, and the OP's granddaughter cannot take a suitcase full of guns with her on vacation to carry and to give to the local population to achieve equality, what is the connection with the DR?
 

pyratt

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Jan 14, 2007
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He was extremely nervous about his daughter not contacting him from the DR even though she is on her honeymoon.

His explanantion of being former Fed explains some to me (yet I don't work with any guys as over protective as he seems to be)....me thinks we are dealing with mono-linguistic "conservative middle America" here....which are folks of a different breed than those of us from South Florida, NY or Texas....

I offered him consolation and of course his daughter turned up safe....and she contacted him in due time.......

The only danger she is in, is from being bludgened by a blunt instrument wielded by her husband.... ;)~

He needs to reeeeeelax and let go of his baby.......
 

bigjuan163usmc

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May 18, 2007
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When I carry a gun, one cannot deal with me by force. They have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate their threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
So what if instead of the the 100 pound woman, the 75 year old retiree, or the mariconcito battyboy with the gun it is the 220 pound mugger, the 19 year old gangbanger, or one of those drunken guys? I'm not anti-gun or even really pro-gun but this guy's essay is poorly written, one-sided, biased and is in no way convincing.
 

LatinoRican

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Apr 11, 2004
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Handgun use...

Wait, aguacateconplatanos! You left out prejudiced, discriminatory, biased, homophobic people who post on DR1...
 

Kyle

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Jun 2, 2006
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as a former firearms instructor for the Army, carrying a gun is one thing but knowing how to use it is another. i've seen and heard of a lot of people dead or injured carrying a gun (meaning someone got the drop on them). now i could go on about holstered vs stuck in your pants/purse timeframe but i won't bore you.

i want to hear more about Punta Cana-guns...
 

USBP1969

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Jul 7, 2007
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Hey pyratt, I see you found the post. :)

Over protective, maybe...but after reading the attached link I was concerned. http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1103.html

Mono-linguistic? That's a very interesting word indeed. First time I have ever seen that one, pero siento senor desde trabajaba 33 anos in La Patrulla De La Frontera de Los Estados Unidos.

There were several folks who asked what the connection was between the grand daughter and the handgun issue. (Shotgun wedding - that was cute.)

The answer is none, except that's the only reason I had been doing searches on DR1 and when the word "Handgun" or "Gun" was used I discovered that there seemed to be a definite anti-gun bias among those responding.

...any pyratt, where do you live?
 

JasonR

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Nov 18, 2006
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What the author fails to take into account is human nature.

His argument is a rational logical argument based on the false presumption that people are always rational and logical and based on the false logic that people never lose their temper.

The fact is that in every country in the world there are thousands or tens of thousands of people in jail because they did something out of character when they just "lost it for a moment". You add guns into the mix and it's a recipe for disaster.

The author also fails to take into account the vast vast numbers of people who, when they threaten someone to back off by revealing their self-defence weapon, end up with their self-defence weapon being used against them.

Historical data points to one thing. If you carry a gun you are far more likely to be shot than if you don't carry one.
 

bigjuan163usmc

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May 18, 2007
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Wait, aguacateconplatanos! You left out prejudiced, discriminatory, biased, homophobic people who post on DR1...
I was kidding about the "mariconcito" remark (I forgot to make it clear in the post, my bad). I'm against violence towards homosexuals. People should be able to love whoever they want.
 

Mirador

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Apr 15, 2004
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I was kidding about the "mariconcito" remark (I forgot to make it clear in the post, my bad). I'm against violence towards homosexuals. People should be able to love whoever they want.
Then there are those who if they can?t love the one they want, end up loving the one they're with... ;)
 

bigjuan163usmc

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May 18, 2007
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Then there are those who if they can?t love the one they want, end up loving the one they're with... ;)
I don't know what the hell that means, I'm only 20 and the only thing I know about love is that it can convince some girls to get in bed with you LOL JK...but anyways, the joke was with the word "battyboy" (drunk guys, bats...) which is the Jamaican equivalent of "pajaro"

PS BTW I'm sorry if this is against the rules or if I shouldn't be doing this, but can please respond to my topic in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus about the Dominican guy with the Haitian girl, it's very important to me and I would appreciate it very much. Thanks. Once, I'm sorry if I shouldn't do this...
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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I don't know what the hell that means, I'm only 20 and the only thing I know about love is that it can convince some girls to get in bed with you LOL JK...but anyways, the joke was with the word "battyboy" (drunk guys, bats...) which is the Jamaican equivalent of "pajaro"
It's a line from a song, guy.
 

cobraboy

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Yes, it is used in several Jamaican reggae songs, but the word is of common use over there as a derogative towards homosexuals. Ask any Jamaican.
Actually, I'm thinking more Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, circa 1970:

If you're down and confused
And you don't remember who you're talkin' to
Concentration slip away
Cause your baby is so far away.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with

Don't be angry, don't be sad,
Don't sit cryin' over good things you've had,
There's a girl right next to you
And she's just waiting for something you do.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with

Turn your heartache right into joy
She's a girl, you're a boy,
Get it together make it nice
Ain't gonna need anymore advice.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with


One of my generations "free sex" anthems. Dunno about de Ja Maica, Mon.;)
 

bigjuan163usmc

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May 18, 2007
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Actually, I'm thinking more Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, circa 1970:

If you're down and confused
And you don't remember who you're talkin' to
Concentration slip away
Cause your baby is so far away.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with

Don't be angry, don't be sad,
Don't sit cryin' over good things you've had,
There's a girl right next to you
And she's just waiting for something you do.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with

Turn your heartache right into joy
She's a girl, you're a boy,
Get it together make it nice
Ain't gonna need anymore advice.
Well, there's a rose in a fisted glove
And the eagle flies with the dove
And if you can't be with the one you love
Love the one you're with
Love the one you're with


One of my generations "free sex" anthems. Dunno about de Ja Maica, Mon.;)
Oh when the guy said it was just lyrics to a song, I thought he was referring to the word "battyboy"...but now I see its about the love thing that cobraboy said. Nevermind me.