Cristóbal Colon and the DR history

pgolivares

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Apr 9, 2010
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I wonder how the Dominican population feels about Christopher Columbus being that so much atrocities were committed against the Tainos. It would not surprise me if the Dominicans do not feel resentment against Columbus because of their “Spanish” heritage.

Thoughts?
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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This is a very good question.
Why would the descendants of the murderers feel any solidarity with the victims, who have no descendants left?
Well, very few of modern day Dominicans would be related to either the original spanish soldiers or the tainos, except very very distant. We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
 

Big

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historians are still debating what old CC did or didn't do.We have forgiven the Germans, Japanese and the Vietnamese. Wonder what the Colombians think of CC since their country is named after him
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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This is a very good question.
Why would the descendants of the murderers feel any solidarity with the victims, who have no descendants left?
You mean the people that mostly died of new diseases such as the cold, which is spread through something as simple and innocent as a sneeze?

It sucks not having the antibodies for something that for those that do is a 10 day disease at most and survive, because in that case it's deadly. What would had happened if they had the antibodies? Not having it cost the lives of 95% of them, which is basically every indian that died. Germs weren't discovered until well into the 1800's and viruses wasn't discovered until practically the 20th century.


Anyway, a simple DNA study of the Americas would clearly show that not only is more indian DNA found among the Spanish countries (almost all of it in the Caribbean is found in just three places: Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic in terms of actual DNA in the mixes and on the amount of mitochondrial DNA inherited by everybody). In the continent indians are more numerous in Spanish countries and indian DNA is present mixed in most of the population.

Compare that to say the USA, just to name one country, where indian DNA is virtually non-existent in the average person and the few that consider themselves as "indians" (or the politically correct term is "Native American") more often than not have a DNA that is mostly something else. Now, why is that the case even along the eastern seaboard, where the USA was born and the English found indians everywhere they went? It's a big mystery.

How can a "genocide" be created when most people die from diseases that no one knew was the culprit at the time, the workforce at that? It makes no sense at all. Kill the workforce and create a crisis to solve because that makes sense. Then indian DNA is most present in countries where supposedly an indian genocide took place, but when you focus in countries with English, French, Danish, Dutch, etc origins the indian DNA is virtually non-existent and indian mitochondrial DNA hardly exist in the population. Based on what is often said by descendants of them, you would think the opposite should be true but it isn't.

The Spanish have a name for the practice of demonizing them in their endevours in the Americas, initially meant to justify the encroaching of English, French, etc into Spanish territory. It's called "La Leyenda Negra" (The Black Legend), a collection of myths about the Spanish especially in peoples with a protestant tradition. Several studies have been conducted in the USA that basically show a consistent anti-Spanish attitude since colonial times in that country born from England. It later was included into the anti-Mexican attitude, but Mexico was Spain and the largest Spanish neighbor of the USA for a long time. Don't bother too much the English to the north (notice the mostly smooth looking border between the US and Canada), but focus taking the power from the Spanish/Mexicans with the encroaching of places such as California or Texas, and then outright war against the Spanish/Mexican neighbors. At the end of the day, most of the west of the USA was from their neighbor first Spain and then Mexico. Don't encroach much on the English/Canadians, but it was up for grabs on the Spanish/Mexicans.

Another look is Florida. The Seminole indian and other tribes were no issue during the 300 years of Spanish rule. As soon as the English/Americans descend from the north and took over, suddenly Florida wasn't too big for everybody. The forced emigration of indians, the mass killing and annihilation of them had begun. 300 years of Spanish rule and they were peacefully left alone and even Mestizos (Spanish-indian mix) was accepted in Spanish towns such as St Agustine. Then came the Americans and all of them, even the Mestizos, were a "problem". To this day much of Florida is a wilderness, so not being big enough for the indians and the English/Americans wasn't trully an issue. Indian DNA is virtually non-existent in the modern Floridian population. What an interesting fact. Most of it probably belongs to Latinos, who have their origin mostly in Spanish American countries such as Mexico, Nicaragua, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic or Spanish American territories such as Puerto Rico. If Florida would had remained in Spaish hands and then become one more Spanish American country, it's almost a guarantee that the average person would have not just indian DNA mixed in, but at greater levels than further north where the English/Americans ruled.
 
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johne

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Jun 28, 2003
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We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
I would totally agree with this statement BUT try telling that to present day protestors that wish to tear down "history" to the bone. As you well know I'm sure, the history book, monuments, speeches. essays, regarding just one part of the "south" in the US (just to use as an example to the DR post) are shredded and torn down everyday. I do think this will carry forward to all parts of the world. WHY (?) because there are many agendas that wish to destroy the stability , or lack of it, of a country. Why not DR? Their "fruit" is perfectly ripe right now.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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You mean the people that mostly died of new diseases such as the cold, which is spread through something as simple and innocent as a sneeze?

It sucks not having the antibodies for something that for those that do is a 10 day disease at most and survive, because in that case it's deadly. What would had happened if they had the antibodies? Not having it cost the lives of 95% of them, which is basically every indian that died. Germs weren't discovered until well into the 1800's and viruses wasn't discovered until practically the 20th century.


Anyway, a simple DNA study of the Americas would clearly show that not only is more indian DNA found among the Spanish countries (almost all of it in the Caribbean is found in just three places: Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic in terms of actual DNA in the mixes and on the amount of mitochondrial DNA inherited by everybody). In the continent indians are more numerous in Spanish countries and indian DNA is present mixed in most of the population.

Compare that to say the USA, just to name one country, where indian DNA is virtually non-existent in the average person and the few that consider themselves as "indians" (or the politically correct term is "Native American") more often than not have a DNA that is mostly something else. Now, why is that the case even along the eastern seaboard, where the USA was born and the English found indians everywhere they went? It's a big mystery.

How can a "genocide" be created when most people die from diseases that no one knew was the culprit at the time, the workforce at that? It makes no sense at all. Kill the workforce and create a crisis to solve because that makes sense. Then indian DNA is most present in countries where supposedly an indian genocide took place, but when you focus in countries with English, French, Danish, Dutch, etc origins the indian DNA is virtually non-existent and indian mitochondrial DNA hardly exist in the population. Based on what is often said by descendants of them, you would think the opposite should be true but it isn't.

The Spanish have a name for the practice of demonizing them in their endevours in the Americas, initially meant to justify the encroaching of English, French, etc into Spanish territory. It's called "La Leyenda Negra" (The Black Legend), a collection of myths about the Spanish especially in peoples with a protestant tradition. Several studies have been conducted in the USA that basically show a consistent anti-Spanish attitude since colonial times in that country born from England. It later was included into the anti-Mexican attitude, but Mexico was Spain and the largest Spanish neighbor of the USA for a long time. Don't bother too much the English to the north (notice the mostly smooth looking border between the US and Canada), but focus taking the power from the Spanish/Mexicans with the encroaching of places such as California or Texas, and then outright war against the Spanish/Mexican neighbors. At the end of the day, most of the west of the USA was from their neighbor first Spain and then Mexico. Don't encroach much on the English/Canadians, but it was up for grabs on the Spanish/Mexicans.

Another look is Florida. The Seminole indian and other tribes were no issue during the 300 years of Spanish rule. As soon as the English/Americans descend from the north and took over, suddenly Florida wasn't too big for everybody. The forced emigration of indians, the mass killing and annihilation of them had begun. 300 years of Spanish rule and they were peacefully left alone and even Mestizos (Spanish-indian mix) was accepted in Spanish towns such as St Agustine. Then came the Americans and all of them, even the Mestizos, were a "problem". To this day much of Florida is a wilderness, so not being big enough for the indians and the English/Americans wasn't trully an issue. Indian DNA is virtually non-existent in the modern Floridian population. What an interesting fact. Most of it probably belongs to Latinos, who have their origin mostly in Spanish American countries such as Mexico, Nicaragua, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic or Spanish American territories such as Puerto Rico. If Florida would had remained in Spaish hands and then become one more Spanish American country, it's almost a guarantee that the average person would have not just indian DNA mixed in, but at greater levels than further north where the English/Americans ruled.
I would agree with most of your post but I can tell you many, many Canadians have native Indian DNA, including myself. There was no large scale attempt to genocide the natives, although there were other attempts to kill their cultures and religions through forced schooling of their children in residential schools, outlawing their religious ceremonies...etc. Any visit to other french controlled islands other than Haiti and you get a much different view on French colonization. Dominica still has a largely intact native indian population and it was controlled by the French for 200 years , then the British.
 

CaribeDigital

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Sep 5, 2014
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Well, very few of modern day Dominicans would be related to either the original spanish soldiers or the tainos, except very very distant. We are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. Nobody is even responsible for a murder committed by his father, and much less by his grandfathers many generations ago. I say the same thing to my German friends.
This generation may be blamed for the treatment of Haitians but not of extinct Tainos.
 
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KyleMackey

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Apr 20, 2015
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I wonder how the Dominican population feels about Christopher Columbus being that so much atrocities were committed against the Tainos. It would not surprise me if the Dominicans do not feel resentment against Columbus because of their “Spanish” heritage.

Thoughts?
Cortez destroyed Aztec Temples because he thought of them as Satanic. They engaged in mass industrial sized ritual sacrifice. This might answer your question.
 

pgolivares

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Apr 9, 2010
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Glad to read your various points of view. I agree with most, don’t blame me for what previous generations sins, for decease I didn’t know I had and/or I didn’t know you didn’t have antibody for, etc. I am yet to read, sorry if I missed it, about the enslavement of the natives and Africans by the colonial powers like CC in DR.

Should we finally hold CC, like other dictators, accountable for all the atrocities committed against the indigenous people or their people in the case of dictators? Granted, would probably not be here if not for CC or be a strong minded individual against dictators if not for them.

The Spaniards, like the south, lost the war therefore their ‘heroes’ should not memorialized like those of Duarte or Washington.

Hwbeva great rest if your weekend all!
 

KyleMackey

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Apr 20, 2015
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Glad to read your various points of view. I agree with most, don’t blame me for what previous generations sins, for decease I didn’t know I had and/or I didn’t know you didn’t have antibody for, etc. I am yet to read, sorry if I missed it, about the enslavement of the natives and Africans by the colonial powers like CC in DR.

Should we finally hold CC, like other dictators, accountable for all the atrocities committed against the indigenous people or their people in the case of dictators? Granted, would probably not be here if not for CC or be a strong minded individual against dictators if not for them.

The Spaniards, like the south, lost the war therefore their ‘heroes’ should not memorialized like those of Duarte or Washington.

Hwbeva great rest if your weekend all!
DR celebrates Independence from Haiti, not Spain.
 

bob saunders

Well-known member
Jan 1, 2002
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991
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dr1.com
Glad to read your various points of view. I agree with most, don’t blame me for what previous generations sins, for decease I didn’t know I had and/or I didn’t know you didn’t have antibody for, etc. I am yet to read, sorry if I missed it, about the enslavement of the natives and Africans by the colonial powers like CC in DR.

Should we finally hold CC, like other dictators, accountable for all the atrocities committed against the indigenous people or their people in the case of dictators? Granted, would probably not be here if not for CC or be a strong minded individual against dictators if not for them.

The Spaniards, like the south, lost the war therefore their ‘heroes’ should not memorialized like those of Duarte or Washington.

Hwbeva great rest if your weekend all!
My only answer to this is they were men of their times. Their behavior and actions were considered normal. The Spanish learned much of their cruelty from the Moors.
 

Russell

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Jun 17, 2017
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Generally speaking history is written by the conquerors ;
Colonialism was also a philosophy that caused enmity between European and Indigenous peoples.
There is no doubt that CC did his dirty duty, all in the name of the King and Queen of Spain.
I had mentioned that racism starter post WW2 ...it did ''for me'' I did not exist before then.

Before then racism was a history lesson, a very distorted History Lesson.It would take years before I would appreciate the impact of it.
CC monuments could stand free in special parks or they could be torn down.... but that does not change what happened in the past.
 

Wishing you well

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Sep 4, 2012
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I wonder how the Dominican population feels about Christopher Columbus being that so much atrocities were committed against the Tainos. It would not surprise me if the Dominicans do not feel resentment against Columbus because of their “Spanish” heritage.

Thoughts?
Two ways

Without him, DR wouldn't have never been and two - because of him, the DR turned out to be what it is, and as Juan Luis Guerra embodied it into one of his song "Un agujero en medio del mar y el cielo, 500 anos despues."

No comparison between Colon and the heroes of the South.

Dominicans do not pay any respect nor idolatry to any of the characters who forged the island upon its discovery as heroes.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Columbus sailed into uncharted waters on glorified row boats looking for a short cut to India. Most people today won't go to the store without a gps. If only we had a fraction of his courage to change the world.
Correction, it's often said IN ENGLISH that Columbus sailed searching for India and that is simply wrong, most likely lost in translation.

In reality he was headed for Las Indias, not La India. That "S" at the end changes the meaning of the word. Las Indias or The Indies is the collection of islands in modern Indonesia, The Philippines, and that area. Once it was realized by the discoverers themselves that they were not in Las Indias but rather in a completely new place, the name of Las Indias change. They became "Las Indias Orientales" or The East Indies, because they are in the eastern part of the world (eastern from Spain/Europe). The new sets of islands were named Las Indias Occidentales or The West Indies, which are the islands of the Caribbean.

They thought the arrived at Las Indias, so naturally they called the natives indios (Indians), whatelse were they suppose to call the people if they thought they were in Las Indias from the start?

The Spanish also called the entire hemisphere as Las Indias, in addition to other names such as America which came later. If you look in Seville, Spain near the main cathedral is a building that houses all the documents pertaining to Spanish American countries from the arrival of Columbus in 1492 to until each place separated themselves from Spain. The building is called "Archivos Reales de las Indias" (Royal Archives of The Indies).

Furthermore, many Spaniards through the century became rich in different parts of America and built impressive houses in Spain, some of them are museum while others continue to be private. These houses are collectively known as "Casas Indianas" (Houses from the Indies) and their names derive from the fact that they were created by Spaniards that lived in Las Indias (aka, America).
 
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william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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I have read it took a few years for them to realize the error.....
when they did, they formally changed the name to West Indies....
 

NY2STI

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Mar 22, 2020
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Correction, it's often said IN ENGLISH that Columbus sailed searching for India and that is simply wrong, most likely lost in translation.

In reality he was headed for Las Indias, not La India. That "S" at the end changes the meaning of the word. Las Indias or The Indies is the collection of islands in modern Indonesia, The Philippines, and that area. Once it was realized by the discoverers themselves that they were not in Las Indias but rather in a completely new place, the name of Las Indias change. They became "Las Indias Orientales" or The East Indies, because they are in the eastern part of the world (eastern from Spain/Europe). The new sets of islands were named Las Indias Occidentales or The West Indies, which are the islands of the Caribbean.

They thought the arrived at Las Indias, so naturally they called the natives indios (Indians), whatelse were they suppose to call the people if they thought they were in Las Indias from the start?

The Spanish also called the entire hemisphere as Las Indias, in addition to other names such as America which came later. If you look in Seville, Spain near the main cathedral is a building that houses all the documents pertaining to Spanish American countries from the arrival of Columbus in 1492 to until each place separated themselves from Spain. The building is called "Archivos Reales de las Indias" (Royal Archives of The Indies).

Furthermore, many Spaniards through the century became rich in different parts of America and built impressive houses in Spain, some of them are museum while others continue to be private. These houses are collectively known as "Casas Indianas" (Houses from the Indies) and their names derive from the fact that they were created by Spaniards that lived in Las Indias (aka, America).
Thank you for the history lesson, but I think you missed my point.