Cuba And DR, More Alike Than Different!

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NALs

Polls Forum Moderator
Jan 20, 2003
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CULTURE
The Dominican culture and the Cuban culture share a lot of similarities with each other. For starters, both countries were primarily influenced by Spain; the influence was to such an extent that it?s the most obvious today. Both countries speak Spanish, hold many Spanish traditions alive, and have an air of Spain in the general ambiance of each. Most of the towns were developed with Spanish architecture and style.

But, both countries are not Spain, thanks to the input of other vibrant cultures as well. In addition to Spain, the native Tainos who inhabited the land for hundreds of years before Columbus landed also influenced both cultures. Many of the names of places, food, and building types are still present in both cultures. Many inhabitants of both countries show Taino traits in their physical appearances and both countries have more than enough evidence of Taino influences in their day to day existence.

Also, Africans had an impact in both countries. Initially both countries had rather small population of Africans and African slaves, compared to other non-Hispanic islands and territories in the region. The African culture was the strongest in Haiti and as such, the eastern sections of Cuba (especially the town of Santiago de Cuba) are more ?Africanized? than the rest of Cuba and the Dominican Republic has been influenced also from subsequent Haitian migration through the years.

In addition to those three main cultures that make up both countries, the United States also influenced heavily both countries. American influences are clearly visible in the development of former middle class suburbs of Havana and Cienfuegos and other towns in Cuba and the suburbs of Santo Domingo, all of which have a slight American appearance to them. The American most modern influences are stronger in the DR than Cuba, due to the DR?s embracement of capitalism and democracy, more so than Castro?s Cuba.

Both countries also have small but influential communities of Chinese and Jews. The Dominican Republic also received migrants from the Middle East and from Japan and Cuba received migrants from many other places including Russia.

ETHNICALLY
The Dominican Republic and Cuba have had extremely relaxed attitudes towards race. The Dominican Republic?s relax attitude towards race was present long before it was in Cuba or elsewhere, but during the rule of Trujillo (a mulatto), the question of race was further blurred, despite Trujillo?s ambition to ?whiten? the population. Trujillo never imposed an apartheid system of diving races, that?s a practice that was full in effect in the United States during Trujillo?s time. As a result from the lack of racial tensions, the Dominican Republic today is 75% mulatto, 10% black, and 16% white.

Cuba?s relax attitude towards race came during the reign of Castro. Before the revolution in 1959, Cuba was under direct influence from the United States and as a result, many places were segregated, especially in Havana. Whites had their own public bathrooms, schools, hotels, etc while black Cubans were given their own separate but less desirable equivalents. Cuba also had many white?s only neighborhoods and full force segregation. After Castro took control, he imposed an agenda of ?color blindness? and after 40 years of Castro rule, the Cubans are just as colorblind as or maybe even more so than Dominicans today. In Cuba, whites and blacks are so relaxed towards race, that for the first time in Cuban history, today whites don?t enjoy a majority in Cuba. Modern Cuba is 53% mulatto, 35% white, and only 12% black. That is a remarkable figure considering that in 1959, whites made up about the same percentage mulattos make today in Cuba. If Cuba retains its relax attitude among the races, the mulatto segment of its population can only be expected to grow into becoming another version of the DR in that sphere.

Thus, today Cuba and the Dominican Republic are the only two countries where mulattos make up a majority in the Western Hemisphere.

LOVE OF LIFE
Cubans and Dominicans are people who truly love life. Both cultures are highly festive. Both cultures bring joy to their life out of nothing and in spontaneity. Music is a feature of the landscape of both countries, with few areas not being infused by the soothing sounds of each island Afro-European influenced music. Art in both countries are also omnipresent in each of their territories. Although art expression is freer in the DR than in Cuba, both islands still share the same joy and sometimes even artistic styles.

OTHER ODD BALL SIMILARITIES
Other areas where Cubans and Dominicans share similarities, though these are less important would be in the following.

1. Power Outages: ?apagones? are frequent and a part of both cultures.
2. Diaspora in the US: both cultures have huge portion of their people living in the United States. Few people in both countries don?t have a family member or acquaintance in the United States.
3. Crazy about ?beisbol?: Both countries produce stellar baseball players and could very easily consider Baseball as a national obsession, if not religion!
4. Food: the food of Cuba and the Dominican Republic are practically the same. Few homes in both countries spend a full day without eating rice, meat, and beans and both countries are obsessed with ?un cafecito? several times a day.
5. Neat people: both countries heavily value neatness. In the Dominican Republic and Cuba, from the intellectuals to the most humble person, they all dress neatly and with dignity.

AN INTERESTING THOUGHT
Even though Cuba and the Dominican Republic have many similarities, there is one thing that is interesting to notice. It could be said that Cuba is what the Dominican Republic would have been under Communism, but most interesting is that the Dominican Republic is what Cuba was before the revolution.

Before the revolution, Havana was a major tourist destination. That city was chock full with Casinos, lavish shows, prostitutes, sprawling and substantial middle class and rich (despite severe poverty along its slums) and everything seem to be exciting and interesting.

It?s interesting to note that modern day Santo Domingo is similar to what Havana was in the past. Today, Santo Domingo is filled with Casinos, world class luxury Hotels; the city has mushroomed with shopping malls and high-rises. Santo Domingo has a substantial middle class and rich who live in sprawling modern neighborhoods. Unfortunately, Santo Domingo is also filled with prostitutes. Santo Domingo has also become a major tourist destination and it?s a city that embraces its past while moving towards the future in leaps and bounds, much how Havana was before the revolution.

Who knows, given the many similarities between the two countries and the ever pressing pressure for regional economic cooperation, maybe one day after Castro is out of the picture, maybe these two countries would unite. They are pretty much the same nation with two different labels, might as well join up. In addition to that, Dominicans and Cubans think of each as being alike, more so than any other two countries in the Caribbean. The Dominican Republic gave birth to Maximo Gomez, a prominent man in Dominican and Cuban history. In fact, after Maximo Gomez along with Jose Marti helped gain Cuba?s independence (with help from the ?yankis? or Americans) Maximo Gomez (a Dominican) was offered the presidency of the new republic of Cuba. Maximo declined the offer, but he is viewed like a hero in both countries.

Maybe that?s what?s stored for the future of the Spanish Caribbean. A united Cuba and Dominican Republic would be ideal. Who knows, maybe if Puerto Rico decides to take a chance at self rule, maybe Puerto Rico might join since Puerto Ricans are not much different from either Cubans or Dominicans.

Who knows what the future holds, but the truth is that the present has some interesting propositions for a better tomorrow in the sunny Spanish Caribbean!

SOURCES AND INTERESTING READING
http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/dominrep.htm

http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FACTS_Web/Cuba Facts Issue 5 June 2004.htm

http://www.netssa.com/cubastats.html

(Notice: this is on PDF)
http://www.dec.org/pdf_docs/PNACP248.pdf

Issues that Cuba currently faces is what the following link discusses. Notice how easily a Dominican can identify him/herself in these issues which are also prevailant in the DR. Thus proves, Dominicans and Cubans are more alike than different. Enjoy.


http://www.angelfire.com/pr/red/cuba/cuba_anti_racism.htm
 
Last edited:

Marianopolita

Moderator Spanish Forum// Ahí na’ma
Dec 26, 2003
4,077
221
63
Nals,

Your post has plenty of generalizations some true and some not so true but nevertheless interesting.

-There was minimal presence of Tainos in Cuban culture- in general "los espa?oles diezmaron a los tainos" and their smallest presence was in Cuba out of the three Caribbean countries.

-Many Cubans strongly practice "santer?a" and are still heavily influenced by this religion today. Santer?a is not part of Dominican culture (last time I checked). La Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre and Yoruba Lucum? etc. are not part of the everyday of a Dominican person. Santer?a cannot be overlooked. Many Cuban beliefs etc. are linked to this African based religion.

- "el congole?o en el espa?ol de Cuba".This is actually the title of a book. Look at the title of Cuban songs, the names of their food and their expressions. There is a very strong African vocabulary mixed with Spanish in their everyday speech. Vestiges of that African language along with other speech patterns in Cuban Spanish (refer to the thread titled "el espa?ol de Sto. Domingo") very much differentiates it from Spanish spoken in the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico.

Racism was very strong in Cuba. Please do not down play it or undermine it for the sake of validating your comparison of these two beautiful countries. However, in Cuba racism has been addressed more readily and consistently over the years. El pensamiento fue: "discriminar a los afrocubanos y los mulatos es ser anti-patri?tico y anti-cubano". The most persistant type of racism that was evident in Cuba was called "racismo republicano" and it was prevalent at the beginning of the twentieth century prior to Castro's regime.(reference: Encuentro de la cultura cubana vol. 20). Via education and legislations measures were taken to erradicate racism in Cuba.

-"Patria o la muerte"- Out from many of my studies of Culture and Civilization in Latin America (La Cultura y Civilizaci?n de Latinoam?rica) one aspect that is consistent in many themes covered is "el sentimiento cubano de patria o la muerte" felt by many. Your proposal challenges that concept. If Cuba and Cuban culture is the pride and joy of most Cubans, I am not so convinced that Cubans would be receptive to the unification of the Spanish Caribbean especially after forty-five years of repression- a hard sell. The whole Cuban sentiment is difficult to decipher but the feeling I get from Cubans is that they are economically and politically repressed but most love their country. The late Celia Cruz is always proof positive to me of this theory. She was a Cuban who loved her country and her dream was to return but she never got the chance to. In one of her more recent boleros the lyrics tell it all: por si acaso no regreso me mata el dolor.....sobre mi tumba quiero que pongan mi bandera.

I am not sure I understand what the angle or theme of your debate is but there is nothing new here in my opinion especially for those of us who have a strong foundation, knowledge and understanding of the history of the Spanish Caribbean. There are many similarities but yet visible differences, which make each country unique, and its historical events have changed the face of these three Caribbean nations over time. I personally love them all and the fusion of the three in my opinion would probably break the peace and cultural uniqueness that each nation enjoys.

Regards,

-Lesley D
 

juancarlos

New member
Sep 28, 2003
676
0
0
Nal0whs said:
CULTURE
The Dominican culture and the Cuban culture share a lot of similarities with each other. For starters, both countries were primarily influenced by Spain; the influence was to such an extent that it’s the most obvious today. Both countries speak Spanish, hold many Spanish traditions alive, and have an air of Spain in the general ambiance of each. Most of the towns were developed with Spanish architecture and style.

But, both countries are not Spain, thanks to the input of other vibrant cultures as well. In addition to Spain, the native Tainos who inhabited the land for hundreds of years before Columbus landed also influenced both cultures. Many of the names of places, food, and building types are still present in both cultures. Many inhabitants of both countries show Taino traits in their physical appearances and both countries have more than enough evidence of Taino influences in their day to day existence.

Also, Africans had an impact in both countries. Initially both countries had rather small population of Africans and African slaves, compared to other non-Hispanic islands and territories in the region. The African culture was the strongest in Haiti and as such, the eastern sections of Cuba (especially the town of Santiago de Cuba) are more “Africanized” than the rest of Cuba and the Dominican Republic has been influenced also from subsequent Haitian migration through the years.

In addition to those three main cultures that make up both countries, the United States also influenced heavily both countries. American influences are clearly visible in the development of former middle class suburbs of Havana and Cienfuegos and other towns in Cuba and the suburbs of Santo Domingo, all of which have a slight American appearance to them. The American most modern influences are stronger in the DR than Cuba, due to the DR’s embracement of capitalism and democracy, more so than Castro’s Cuba.

Both countries also have small but influential communities of Chinese and Jews. The Dominican Republic also received migrants from the Middle East and from Japan and Cuba received migrants from many other places including Russia.

ETHNICALLY
The Dominican Republic and Cuba have had extremely relaxed attitudes towards race. The Dominican Republic’s relax attitude towards race was present long before it was in Cuba or elsewhere, but during the rule of Trujillo (a mulatto), the question of race was further blurred, despite Trujillo’s ambition to “whiten” the population. Trujillo never imposed an apartheid system of diving races, that’s a practice that was full in effect in the United States during Trujillo’s time. As a result from the lack of racial tensions, the Dominican Republic today is 75% mulatto, 10% black, and 16% white.

Cuba’s relax attitude towards race came during the reign of Castro. Before the revolution in 1959, Cuba was under direct influence from the United States and as a result, many places were segregated, especially in Havana. Whites had their own public bathrooms, schools, hotels, etc while black Cubans were given their own separate but less desirable equivalents. Cuba also had many white’s only neighborhoods and full force segregation. After Castro took control, he imposed an agenda of “color blindness” and after 40 years of Castro rule, the Cubans are just as colorblind as or maybe even more so than Dominicans today. In Cuba, whites and blacks are so relaxed towards race, that for the first time in Cuban history, today whites don’t enjoy a majority in Cuba. Modern Cuba is 53% mulatto, 35% white, and only 12% black. That is a remarkable figure considering that in 1959, whites made up about the same percentage mulattos make today in Cuba. If Cuba retains its relax attitude among the races, the mulatto segment of its population can only be expected to grow into becoming another version of the DR in that sphere.

Thus, today Cuba and the Dominican Republic are the only two countries where mulattos make up a majority in the Western Hemisphere.

LOVE OF LIFE
Cubans and Dominicans are people who truly love life. Both cultures are highly festive. Both cultures bring joy to their life out of nothing and in spontaneity. Music is a feature of the landscape of both countries, with few areas not being infused by the soothing sounds of each island Afro-European influenced music. Art in both countries are also omnipresent in each of their territories. Although art expression is freer in the DR than in Cuba, both islands still share the same joy and sometimes even artistic styles.

OTHER ODD BALL SIMILARITIES
Other areas where Cubans and Dominicans share similarities, though these are less important would be in the following.

1. Power Outages: “apagones” are frequent and a part of both cultures.
2. Diaspora in the US: both cultures have huge portion of their people living in the United States. Few people in both countries don’t have a family member or acquaintance in the United States.
3. Crazy about “beisbol”: Both countries produce stellar baseball players and could very easily consider Baseball as a national obsession, if not religion!
4. Food: the food of Cuba and the Dominican Republic are practically the same. Few homes in both countries spend a full day without eating rice, meat, and beans and both countries are obsessed with “un cafecito” several times a day.
5. Neat people: both countries heavily value neatness. In the Dominican Republic and Cuba, from the intellectuals to the most humble person, they all dress neatly and with dignity.

AN INTERESTING THOUGHT
Even though Cuba and the Dominican Republic have many similarities, there is one thing that is interesting to notice. It could be said that Cuba is what the Dominican Republic would have been under Communism, but most interesting is that the Dominican Republic is what Cuba was before the revolution.

Before the revolution, Havana was a major tourist destination. That city was chock full with Casinos, lavish shows, prostitutes, sprawling and substantial middle class and rich (despite severe poverty along its slums) and everything seem to be exciting and interesting.

It’s interesting to note that modern day Santo Domingo is similar to what Havana was in the past. Today, Santo Domingo is filled with Casinos, world class luxury Hotels; the city has mushroomed with shopping malls and high-rises. Santo Domingo has a substantial middle class and rich who live in sprawling modern neighborhoods. Unfortunately, Santo Domingo is also filled with prostitutes. Santo Domingo has also become a major tourist destination and it’s a city that embraces its past while moving towards the future in leaps and bounds, much how Havana was before the revolution.

Who knows, given the many similarities between the two countries and the ever pressing pressure for regional economic cooperation, maybe one day after Castro is out of the picture, maybe these two countries would unite. They are pretty much the same nation with two different labels, might as well join up. In addition to that, Dominicans and Cubans think of each as being alike, more so than any other two countries in the Caribbean. The Dominican Republic gave birth to Maximo Gomez, a prominent man in Dominican and Cuban history. In fact, after Maximo Gomez along with Jose Marti helped gain Cuba’s independence (with help from the “yankis” or Americans) Maximo Gomez (a Dominican) was offered the presidency of the new republic of Cuba. Maximo declined the offer, but he is viewed like a hero in both countries.

Maybe that’s what’s stored for the future of the Spanish Caribbean. A united Cuba and Dominican Republic would be ideal. Who knows, maybe if Puerto Rico decides to take a chance at self rule, maybe Puerto Rico might join since Puerto Ricans are not much different from either Cubans or Dominicans.

Who knows what the future holds, but the truth is that the present has some interesting propositions for a better tomorrow in the sunny Spanish Caribbean!

SOURCES AND INTERESTING READING
http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/dominrep.htm

http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FACTS_Web/Cuba Facts Issue 5 June 2004.htm

http://www.netssa.com/cubastats.html

(Notice: this is on PDF)
http://www.dec.org/pdf_docs/PNACP248.pdf

Issues that Cuba currently faces is what the following link discusses. Notice how easily a Dominican can identify him/herself in these issues which are also prevailant in the DR. Thus proves, Dominicans and Cubans are more alike than different. Enjoy.


http://www.angelfire.com/pr/red/cuba/cuba_anti_racism.htm
I do agree with you that Dominicans and Cubans are more alike than different and that, perhaps, the three islands should have been one nation. However, I must correct some of your statements concerning race relations in Cuba both before Castro and today. First, education and housing were integrated in Cuba, not segregated. White, black and mulatto Cubans attended the same public schools from kindergarten to the university long before Castro came to power. All public trasportation, restaurants, bathrooms etc. were completely integrated in Cuba, unlike the US. Still, there was segregation when it came to public dancing, and social clubs or "sociedades". Every town in Cuba had at least two of these: One for whites and one for blacks and mulattoes. Only in those parts of Cuba where mulattoes had organized themselves or were seen as distinct segment of the population, was there another social club for them. As I said, dancing in the streets, as in those occasions like fiestas patronales, the street was divided in two sections. So we can see that Cuba was not like the US, but at the same time, it was behind other Latin countries in terms of racial prejudice. Most private schools, including or particularly the Catholic ones, were segregated. Some mutual aide medical societies, which offered cheap membership and good medical services, like the Colonia Espanola, dit not admit blacks or mulattoes. Yet, all hospitals, casas de socorro and other medical facilities, in every neighborhood, were integrated and free for everyone.

Nor is today's Cuba colorblind either: The first thing I noticed the first time I returned to Cuba for a visit, 25 years after I left, was the almost complete absence of blacks or mulattoes at dollar only govt. stores, hotels, resorts and any other place which catered to foreign tourist. All of these positions were filled by young, healthy looking, very educated white Cubans. In addition to being white and young, they also had to be good looking and without any visible handicaps. Blacks are the poorest of the poor, and make up a large majority of the prison population as well. I did notice that the non-white population had undergone a dramatic increase almost everywhere I went, so their absence from places where you would expect to see them was even more noticeble. I would say that racism and racial discrimination has actually increased in Cuba since about 1990. My observations were confirmed on my second visit to the island in 1999 and in coversations with people there. I understand that not everything that has been written about Cuba is accurate, I have seen incredible distortions, as well as outright inventions and lies. So I do not blame you for that. Your information may be as good or as bad as your source. Sometimes, you have no control over that.

Nor should statistics, dealing with Cuba's racial make up, be taken too seriously. Most of those estimates are not based on any census but on private parties and are always very personal and often untrue. For one thing, it is not true that blacks make up "only 12%" of the population. Anybody who has visited Cuba knows that they make up, at least, twice that figure or even more. I would say that, along with mulattoes, they may represent 53% of the total, perhaps more. I saw as many blacks as I saw mulattoes. Still, whites are the largest single group, althoug it also seems to me, no longer a majority. In 1959, whites did not make up 53% but 73% and mulattoes and blacks 27%, according to the 1953 census. Under Castro, according to the 1981 census, they(mulattoes and blacks) represented about 35%. I do not trust those figures either. What is clear is that there has been a very big change in the color composition of the Cuban population. Cities like Havana have black and mulatto majorities. In other towns, it is half the population. You can see this even in far western Cuba. Althoug here, particularly in the country side, whites are still the clear majority. This change occurred because of the emigration of many white Cubans, the complete cesation of European inmigration and the much lower birht rate of the white Cuban population vs the black Cuban population. Mulattoes too, have a higher birht rate.

Still, I do believe your points are valid and that Cuba today resembles the Domincan Republic more, population wise, and that the two countries, plus Puerto Rico are more like one nation divided in three parts. Everything you state about Maximo Gomez is true and correct. I do believe,however, that Cuba still has a long way to go before it achieves the type racial integration or relations, that the Dominican Republic, in spite of all its faults and imperfections, enjoys.
 
Last edited:

NALs

Polls Forum Moderator
Jan 20, 2003
9,395
243
63
Lesley D said:
Nals,

Your post has plenty of generalizations some true and some not so true but nevertheless interesting.

-There was minimal presence of Tainos in Cuban culture- in general "los espa?oles diezmaron a los tainos" and their smallest presence was in Cuba out of the three Caribbean countries.

-Many Cubans strongly practice "santer?a" and are still heavily influenced by this religion today. Santer?a is not part of Dominican culture (last time I checked). La Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre and Yoruba Lucum? etc. are not part of the everyday of a Dominican person. Santer?a cannot be overlooked. Many Cuban beliefs etc. are linked to this African based religion.

- "el congole?o en el espa?ol de Cuba".This is actually the title of a book. Look at the title of Cuban songs, the names of their food and their expressions. There is a very strong African vocabulary mixed with Spanish in their everyday speech. Vestiges of that African language along with other speech patterns in Cuban Spanish (refer to the thread titled "el espa?ol de Sto. Domingo") very much differentiates it from Spanish spoken in the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico.

Racism was very strong in Cuba. Please do not down play it or undermine it for the sake of validating your comparison of these two beautiful countries. However, in Cuba racism has been addressed more readily and consistently over the years. El pensamiento fue: "discriminar a los afrocubanos y los mulatos es ser anti-patri?tico y anti-cubano". The most persistant type of racism that was evident in Cuba was called "racismo republicano" and it was prevalent at the beginning of the twentieth century prior to Castro's regime.(reference: Encuentro de la cultura cubana vol. 20). Via education and legislations measures were taken to erradicate racism in Cuba.

-"Patria o la muerte"- Out from many of my studies of Culture and Civilization in Latin America (La Cultura y Civilizaci?n de Latinoam?rica) one aspect that is consistent in many themes covered is "el sentimiento cubano de patria o la muerte" felt by many. Your proposal challenges that concept. If Cuba and Cuban culture is the pride and joy of most Cubans, I am not so convinced that Cubans would be receptive to the unification of the Spanish Caribbean especially after forty-five years of repression- a hard sell. The whole Cuban sentiment is difficult to decipher but the feeling I get from Cubans is that they are economically and politically repressed but most love their country. The late Celia Cruz is always proof positive to me of this theory. She was a Cuban who loved her country and her dream was to return but she never got the chance to. In one of her more recent boleros the lyrics tell it all: por si acaso no regreso me mata el dolor.....sobre mi tumba quiero que pongan mi bandera.

I am not sure I understand what the angle or theme of your debate is but there is nothing new here in my opinion especially for those of us who have a strong foundation, knowledge and understanding of the history of the Spanish Caribbean. There are many similarities but yet visible differences, which make each country unique, and its historical events have changed the face of these three Caribbean nations over time. I personally love them all and the fusion of the three in my opinion would probably break the peace and cultural uniqueness that each nation enjoys.

Regards,

-Lesley D
I fully recognize all of the differences you pointed out, after all, the Spanish Caribbean are independent nations.

However, there is more similarities between Cuba and the DR than any other Latin country (save PR) with the DR.

Due to the constant pressure from globalization and the constant threat of marginalisation, the unification of all three countries would be ideal.

Keep in mind, there is a difference between something being ideal and something being practical, for the time being anyway.

People need to see the world under the same spectrum before they unite. After all, the United States would have become 13 independent countries if each of those colonies did not decided to unite and see the world under the same spectrum.

There is alot to be gain by the union of Cuba with the DR in the future. Cuba has a highly educated population who would be fabulous to have in a developing capitalistic economy, especially before they migrate to more developed countries. The Cubans have a good work ethic, I might say even better than Dominicans. Their influence on Dominicans on that respect would be good, since Dominicans are known to take things "too lightly".

In addition to that, I see more similarities between the two countries, actually between all three nations. Historically, each country has helped each other one way or another.

Differences in speech are noticeable, but there are similarities like the nasal sound that predominates in the Spanish Caribbean. After all, the traditional northern U.S. speaks English in a slight different manner and accent than the "Deep South" and after they managed to unite, though some would say by force especially after the South was "whipped" by the North in the Civil War.

The truth is that Dominicans and Cubans share more among themselves than Jamaica does with the Bahamas, than Haiti does with Guadaloupe, than Aruba does with St. Croix. Dominicans and Cubans are more alike than Dominicans and Colombians, or Dominicans and Mexicans, or Dominicans and Argentina.

There is alot of "natural incentives" for a unification, not in the near future, but sometime later on. As Cuba becomes ever more mixed ethnically, they will begin to identify themselves more with Dominicans who are also mulattos for the most part. People tend to gravitate to those of "their own" and the rest of Latin America lacking a mulatto majority, it would only make sense that these two would lean on each other especially in time when these countries might seem neglected by the other Latin nations.

A unification could be possible, but only under the notion that both countries would unite, rather than under the notion that Cuba takes over DR or vice-versa. If both countries agree on unification by creating a new culture that would be Dominican-Cuban or Cuban-Dominican, then why not!

But first, lots of books and research has to be done to further back this idea. After all, people believe in ideas when they are on secure paper. Juan Pablo Duarte and Jose Marti fought for each countries independence respectively because they had an idea and they put their actions to fullfill their idea.

The first step is an idea and that is what I am presenting here, just an idea.
 
Last edited:

NALs

Polls Forum Moderator
Jan 20, 2003
9,395
243
63
juancarlos said:
I do agree with you that Dominicans and Cubans are more alike than different and that, perhaps, the three islands should have been one nation. However, I must correct some of your statements concerning race relations in Cuba both before Castro and today. First, education and housing were integrated in Cuba, not segregated. White, black and mulatto Cubans attended the same public schools from kindergarten to the university long before Castro came to power. All public trasportation, restaurants, bathrooms etc. were completely integrated in Cuba, unlike the US. Still, there was segregation when it came to public dancing, and social clubs or "sociedades". Every town in Cuba had at least two of these: One for whites and one for blacks and mulattoes. Only in those parts of Cuba where mulattoes had organized themselves or were seen as distinct segment of the population, was there another social club for them. As I said, dancing in the streets, as in those occasions like fiestas patronales, the street was divided in two sections. So we can see that Cuba was not like the US, but at the same time, it was behind other Latin countries in terms of racial prejudice. Most private schools, including or particularly the Catholic ones, were segregated. Some mutual aide medical societies, which offered cheap membership and good medical services, like the Colonia Espanola, dit not admit blacks or mulattoes. Yet, all hospitals, casas de socorro and other medical facilities, in every neighborhood, were integrated and free for everyone.

Nor is today's Cuba colorblind either: The first thing I noticed the first time I returned to Cuba for a visit, 25 years after I left, was the almost complete absence of blacks or mulattoes at dollar only govt. stores, hotels, resorts and any other place which catered to foreign tourist. All of these positions were filled by young, healthy looking, very educated white Cubans. In addition to being white and young, they also had to be good looking and without any visible handicaps. Blacks are the poorest of the poor, and make up a large majority of the prison population as well. I did notice that the non-white population had undergone a dramatic increase almost everywhere I went, so their absence from places where you would expect to see them was even more noticeble. I would say that racism and racial discrimination has actually increased in Cuba since about 1990. My observations were confirmed on my second visit to the island in 1999 and in coversations with people there. I understand that not everything that has been written about Cuba is accurate, I have seen incredible distortions, as well as outright inventions and lies. So I do not blame you for that. Your information may be as good or as bad as your source. Sometimes, you have no control over that.

Nor should statistics, dealing with Cuba's racial make up, be taken too seriously. Most of those estimates are not based on any census but on private parties and are always very personal and often untrue. For one thing, it is not true that blacks make up "only 12%" of the population. Anybody who has visited Cuba knows that they make up, at least, twice that figure or even more. I would say that, along with mulattoes, they may represent 53% of the total, perhaps more. I saw as many blacks as I saw mulattoes. Still, whites are the largest single group, althoug it also seems to me, no longer a majority. In 1959, whites did not make up 53% but 73% and mulattoes and blacks 27%, according to the 1953 census. Under Castro, according to the 1981 census, they represented about 35%. I do not trust those figures either. What is clear is that there has been a very big change in the color composition of the Cuban population. Cities like Havana have black and mulatto majorities. In other towns, it is half the population. You can see this even in far western Cuba. Althoug here, particularly in the country side, whites are still the clear majority. This change occurred because of the emigration of many white Cubans, the complete cesation of European inmigration and the much lower birht rate of the white Cuban population vs the black Cuban population. Mulattoes too, have a higher birht rate.

Still, I do believe your points are valid and that Cuba today resembles the Domincan Republic more, population wise, and that the two countries, plus Puerto Rico are more like one nation divided in three parts. Everything you state about Maximo Gomez is true and correct. I do believe,however, that Cuba still has a long way to go before it achieves the type racial integration or relations, that the Dominican Republic, in spite of all its faults and imperfections, enjoys.
Thank you for the corrections. I was only writing based on my sources, so I had not much control on what to say other than what my sources revealed.

I did went to Cuba about two years ago and some of the source seemned a bit weird, just based on my observations. However, I accepted the sources on a "minimum" basis. Meaning, that AT LEAST we can assume such thing, though the reality might be a bit more different. I used the sources to fall back on something.

Anyways, thank you for clearing that out and thank you for not trying to discredit my idea solely based on my sources. After all, anybody with an open mind could very clearly see that the Spanish Caribbean are more like a nation with different labels.

Thank you very much!
 

FuegoAzul21

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Cubans are cool, i guess, i grew up with many Cubans (im from Union City , Nj :classic: ) i met alot of cool ones and bad ones, i think the white population is far from the majority in Cuba , all the white cubans started leaving when castro took over , thats why 90 percent of the cubans in the states are white ,thats also why the cubans in cuba dont want anything to do with the cubans in the USA , the USA cubans represent oppression and the old system and the cubans from cuba will fight like crazy before they let the white "gusanos" come back and try to run s**t , thats actaully why they will not change to capitalism once Castro goes down ( im not saying communism is a good thing but given the situations black cubans face during capitolism , it is the best thing for them) , if u think of it, communism only disenfranchises the rich , and what race do the rich tend to be?, you see? it all makes sense . The Black Cubans know that with capitalism they will end up at the bottom of the barrel , being treated like pure CRAP like other Latin American blacks in thier countries , that is the pure truth and any one who thinks other wise is a fool , a really dumb fool
 

juancarlos

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FuegoAzul21 said:
Cubans are cool, i guess, i grew up with many Cubans (im from Union City , Nj :classic: ) i met alot of cool ones and bad ones, i think the white population is far from the majority in Cuba , all the white cubans started leaving when castro took over , thats why 90 percent of the cubans in the states are white ,thats also why the cubans in cuba dont want anything to do with the cubans in the USA , the USA cubans represent oppression and the old system and the cubans from cuba will fight like crazy before they let the white "gusanos" come back and try to run s**t , thats actaully why they will not change to capitalism once Castro goes down ( im not saying communism is a good thing but given the situations black cubans face during capitolism , it is the best thing for them) , if u think of it, communism only disenfranchises the rich , and what race do the rich tend to be?, you see? it all makes sense . The Black Cubans know that with capitalism they will end up at the bottom of the barrel , being treated like pure CRAP like other Latin American blacks in thier countries , that is the pure truth and any one who thinks other wise is a fool , a really dumb fool
Hey, fuegoazul, your post is full of both insults and false stereotypes plus complete ignorance of Cuba, Cubans, or the reality on the island. You have an agenda. "All" white Cubans did not leave, those you call "gusanos" have relatives on the island to whom they send money. In Cuba blacks are the poorest and most desperate. Everyone is disenfranchised in Cuba. Only foreing capitalists have a good time living in Cuba. What exists in Cuba is a one man dictatorship. Forget about "communism" and "capitalism" and stop calling humans gusanos and branding people as fools. You are the biggest fool! And I say so!
 

juancarlos

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Furthermore,fuegoazul, rich people in Cuba were a tiny minority, as they are in every country, but there are 1.5 million Cubans in the US alone! Many others live in other countries. Obviously, they were not rich. In fact, most Cubans in the US have attained a standard of living they never dreamed of achieving in Cuba. You should not tell other people what's good for them. Who are you to tell black Cubans that "communism" is "good for them". You have little to none knowledge of Cuban reality. The term "gusano" is a derogatory term employed by Castro against his opponents in Cuba or outside the country. It was not used exclusively against Cuban exiles. Even now Castro calls Cubans in the US and other countries "the Cuban community abroad". Those Cubans you call "gusanos" are treated like royalty in Cuba, the dollars they carry make all the difference.

Before I forget, no one has claimed that Cuba today still has a white majority, but they are certainly the largest single group and the Castro dictatorship is a very white dictatorship. Few non-whites represent the country abroad and in Cuba they are discriminated against in all almost all aspects.

Once Castro is gone, things will change, for everyone in Cuba wants a change that would improve their lives. Today, Cubans can not even stay in their own hotels and are excluded from many beaches and resorts. The Castro dictatorship's policies are meant to keep Cubans poor, looking for their daily bread and dollar and without time for anything else. Mind your own life and leave Cubans, at home and abroad, alone. And save your insults!
 

Mr_DR

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May 12, 2002
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Nal0whs said:
Thank you for the corrections. I was only writing based on my sources, so I had not much control on what to say other than what my sources revealed.

I did went to Cuba about two years ago and some of the source seemned a bit weird, just based on my observations. However, I accepted the sources on a "minimum" basis. Meaning, that AT LEAST we can assume such thing, though the reality might be a bit more different. I used the sources to fall back on something.

Anyways, thank you for clearing that out and thank you for not trying to discredit my idea solely based on my sources. After all, anybody with an open mind could very clearly see that the Spanish Caribbean are more like a nation with different labels.

Thank you very much!
Unification between Cuba and DR?
Please wake up and realize that this is only a dream.

These countries love their flags too much to give one up.
 

jcarn

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Jun 28, 2004
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FuegoAzul21 said:
Cubans are cool, i guess, i grew up with many Cubans (im from Union City , Nj :classic: ) i met alot of cool ones and bad ones, i think the white population is far from the majority in Cuba , all the white cubans started leaving when castro took over , thats why 90 percent of the cubans in the states are white ,thats also why the cubans in cuba dont want anything to do with the cubans in the USA , the USA cubans represent oppression and the old system and the cubans from cuba will fight like crazy before they let the white "gusanos" come back and try to run s**t , thats actaully why they will not change to capitalism once Castro goes down ( im not saying communism is a good thing but given the situations black cubans face during capitolism , it is the best thing for them) , if u think of it, communism only disenfranchises the rich , and what race do the rich tend to be?, you see? it all makes sense . The Black Cubans know that with capitalism they will end up at the bottom of the barrel , being treated like pure CRAP like other Latin American blacks in thier countries , that is the pure truth and any one who thinks other wise is a fool , a really dumb fool
Are you kidding me? Did you make this theory up or is that what your cuban friends told you? The reason why i'm asking is because if it was a Cuban who told you this, I'd like to know what that cuban was smoking to tell you something like that.

First of all I'd like to start off by saying that I'm Cuban and grew up 1-town away from you. Second of all I'd also like to say that I still have family over there RIGHT NOW. Thirdly, I'd like to say that I have met several people who have recently gotten to the US from Cuba.

I'd like to state that what you've said on this board has to be one of the most ridicoulous things I've ever read in my life. I cant even begin to point out the flaws in the statements that you've said, I'd be stuck writing paragraphs for DAYS.

I'd DARE you to talk to any Cuban in jersey (black, white, whatever), tell them that communism is good for thier country and see what reaction you get, but, I dont want to be held accountable for medical/funeral bills.
 

Tony C

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www.sfmreport.com
Anybody familar with my posts over the years on DR1 must know how much of a chuckle this thread is giving me.

I'll tell you one difference between Cubans and Dominicans:

Dominicans like to say how Cubans and them are so much alike. Cubans don't!


As for FuegoAzul's post lets just say he listens to michael moore too much.

Tony C.
 

thick_neck

*** Sin Bin ***
Apr 6, 2004
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Although I'm a Castro fan, I'd say we don't talk about Cuba here. After all, there are no cubanitos here.

Bueno, last warning, ya lo saben...
 

Marianopolita

Moderator Spanish Forum// Ahí na’ma
Dec 26, 2003
4,077
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Nals

Your view is still too idealistic to be realistic. A certain level of economic stability is required before countries can merge.

You present a semi-decent response for proposing unification by stating that "globalization and marginalization" are key drivers for a merger of the Spanish Caribbean and I am assuming that you believe that the combined economies of the three countries would be stronger than the current economic state of each. However, as I mentioned in my first post I think a merger between Cuba and the DR would be a hard sell for both countries just from a cultural stand point alone without even deeply examining dollars and cents (sense). If you are going to propose some kind of unification to make the region stronger you should compare an existing regional economic merger like Mercorsur, a free trading zone among four South American countries; Brasil, Paraguay, Uruguay and Argentina and current failures and successes. As well, use the current European Union as an example. It took over fifty years to achieve this union among twenty-five nations currently. The general goal is to achieve political, economic and social unity and co-operation. Each country is still a nation, Europe is not going to become a single entity but continuously a stronger trading zone etc. overtime.

I agree with Mr_DR there is too much to give up from a cultural stand point. I personally would not want to see it. I think more economic unity and may be a free trading zone across Latin America (for argument's sake) would be a more of a logical proposal. Anyway just talking about Cuba alone you are one step ahead, I think dismantling the current regime and freeing the Cuban people should be law and order rather than unifying Cuba and the DR.

Regards,

-Lesley D
 
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Marianopolita

Moderator Spanish Forum// Ahí na’ma
Dec 26, 2003
4,077
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Thick_neck,

Some of us were not here when past debates occurred. Thanks for the warning...pero yo quiero ver lo que va a pasar. De todas maneras el tema es interesante.

-Lesley D



thick_neck said:
Although I'm a Castro fan, I'd say we don't talk about Cuba here. After all, there are no cubanitos here.

Bueno, last warning, ya lo saben...
 

Porfio_Rubirosa

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Tony C said:
I'll tell you one difference between Cubans and Dominicans:

Dominicans like to say how Cubans and them are so much alike. Cubans don't!
Actually, Tony likes to say how much they're not alike. As with most things Tony (and the Miami Cuban leadership) says, I'm not sure he speaks for most Cubans living in Cuba today.

Imagine if, at the same time Castro was becoming a communist in Cuba, the same thing was happening in the DR. Then imagine that practically the entire Dominican professional class (doctors, lawyers, engineers, bankers, etc.) and business class fled the island for Florida to join their Cuban counterparts. The Florida groups would be very similar, though the Dominican group would be much smaller as the DR was far less developed.

The people left behind on both islands would also be very similar. Darker in complexion, more folk-oriented, less tied to the land, less bourgeoi. This seems to be confirmed by outsiders who have visited both countries. The culturally dominant economic class (in both cases, the "functioning poor") are very similar.

Tony's mistake is that he compares the Miami Cuban bourgeoise to the culturally dominant Dominican "functioning poor" class. The more accurate comparison would be between the great Cuban masses living in Cuba today and the great Dominican masses living in the DR today.
 
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Criss Colon

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"To Whom It May Concern"

Don't get worked up over this $hit! "NightOwls" likes to come up with "Hair Brained" ideas,search them on "Google",then post hypothetical "Questions" on DR1!I just use my "Delete" button when they appear in the "General Stuff Forum"!Most are "Race Baiting" themes,many support his anti-Us Agenda,ALL contain his," I'm a Dominican,so it's not my fault" point of view! ;)
Last Time I was In Cuba,about 5 years ago,I met some really nice people!
I was surprized to see that most of the "Service Personel" ,including all "Taxi" drivers,were white,and not dark like here in the DR!I found that Dark skinned Cubans were not allowd in the "Tourist" areas! Especially in the Hotels.Any Cubans I met in the Hotels,were white,with US$$$$$$$$ to spend.If Cubans and Dominicans are both so "neat",why is Cuba so clean,and the DR like one huge garbage dump???
If I were a Dominican,I would pray that "Fidel" never dies! It will mean the death of the DR's tourist industry within 5 years of his death!!
cccccccccc
 

FuegoAzul21

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juancarlos said:
Furthermore,fuegoazul, rich people in Cuba were a tiny minority, as they are in every country, but there are 1.5 million Cubans in the US alone! Many others live in other countries. Obviously, they were not rich. In fact, most Cubans in the US have attained a standard of living they never dreamed of achieving in Cuba. You should not tell other people what's good for them. Who are you to tell black Cubans that "communism" is "good for them". You have little to none knowledge of Cuban reality. The term "gusano" is a derogatory term employed by Castro against his opponents in Cuba or outside the country. It was not used exclusively against Cuban exiles. Even now Castro calls Cubans in the US and other countries "the Cuban community abroad". Those Cubans you call "gusanos" are treated like royalty in Cuba, the dollars they carry make all the difference.

Before I forget, no one has claimed that Cuba today still has a white majority, but they are certainly the largest single group and the Castro dictatorship is a very white dictatorship. Few non-whites represent the country abroad and in Cuba they are discriminated against in all almost all aspects.

Once Castro is gone, things will change, for everyone in Cuba wants a change that would improve their lives. Today, Cubans can not even stay in their own hotels and are excluded from many beaches and resorts. The Castro dictatorship's policies are meant to keep Cubans poor, looking for their daily bread and dollar and without time for anything else. Mind your own life and leave Cubans, at home and abroad, alone. And save your insults!


I used the term "Gusanos" to not say "cubans in the usa"(not tryin to insult them ,) and from what i remember thats what fidel would always call the cubans in Miami , you also have to remember that if blacks and others are poor now, imagine under capitalism (it may help others ), communism convienes to them ,where their children and other Cuban children can get Free education,Free health care , and other things for free,things they would not recieve under capitalism (u think blacks in Colombia or ecuador get any education or healthcare)Cubans are poor due to the incredible sanctions put against them by the usa and european union , and when castro leaves things will change regarding human rights and others, maybe the santcions will be lifted and they can prosper, but change of government ,i doubt, as for cubans in the usa that go to cuba and are treated like royalty becuase they have money , also many cubans do not leave becuase of the government , they leave becuase of economic reasons (like most other hispanics)
 

Porfio_Rubirosa

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Criss Colon said:
If Cubans and Dominicans are both so "neat",why is Cuba so clean,and the DR like one huge garbage dump???
If I were a Dominican,I would pray that "Fidel" never dies! It will mean the death of the DR's tourist industry within 5 years of his death!!
cccccccccc
On the former, the DR used to also be very clean prior to the introduction of massive amounts of disposable consumer goods and packages (e.g. plastic bottles, styrofoam cubs and containers, plastic wrappers, etc.). I suspect that this is still not the case in Cuba, given its economy.

On the latter, I wouldn't be so sure. Bermuda is neat and clean and trouble free as can be. And I have absolutely no interest in vacationing there.
 

thick_neck

*** Sin Bin ***
Apr 6, 2004
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Hey, people...

Isn't it ironic that the twice-banned Joseito is begging you to refrain from discussing Cuba?

Ain't it cool that even a Castro-loving hippie like The Kid is warning you about the consequences?

But here's my take on this: I'd say that Dominicans and Cubans are probably close to 100% alike. But don't ask me about it, I just read it somewhere.

-The Kid
 
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