D.R. the next Argentina?

[Robert]

Maybe it's me, but when I read the DR1 news it paints a different picture.
Plus this is the news that we choose to publish, some you never get to see.
To be honest, of the people I know (educated), not one has a kind word to say about the current government.


This is just the last two weeks. Not in any particular order, but the
Placer Dome contract approval was disgusting!

Placer Dome contract approved
The controversial US$180 million loan
Picking up the tab for Pan Am Village
Loans in the limbo
Plan Renove loans
Calderon: Ventura is my friend
Limelight on train promoter
Dominican businesses cringe
US$200 million World Bank loan sought
Important bills forgotten in Congress
US$300 million for more government loans
Restricting access to official sources


I'm the first person to shout the virtues of this wonderful country, I sit here along with 1 or 2 others and promote the life out of it daily. But, you have to question some of the stuff that's currently happening here.

 

[Paul Thate]

this was a reply to Jim not Robert
I agree with Roberts assesment

well this may be true or not.
brazil was or is a powerhouse and still got in trouble.
The Dr might be a pump to be primed but gross missmanagement still can screw it up.
I would not call the presence of all the SUV's a sign of the boom.
I still dont like Hipolito very much.
If he pays the army before teachers..
If there are about 260 soldiers for each general.
If a loan goes for a hospital for the politicians only.
etc. etc. I find that a little scary.
I rather see a Fernandez running that primed pump.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

I would also rather see Fernandez doing the priming.
The DR feds abscond with about 20% of GDP, same as the USA, according to Mondongo, +/- 1%.

The DR is much undeveloped, so they can and will achieve a high growth rate just with policy, loans or no loans.

Some of the changes that will do this is build the hell out of the infrastructure, implement and enforce order, establish probity in the courts, regulations in banking, favor and support the key industries, join in free trade agreements, ...

Most people spend 50% or more of their net revenue servicing debt. It is cheaper to keep the debt low but growth is much faster when the the government taxes and spends if the pump needs priming. This was pointed out more or less by the Central Bank's report.

In fact, the growth under Fernandez makes up for all the loans so far, and now they are going to give a huge injection to infrastrure once again.

The presence of many SUV's is indeed a sign. Those things are expensive and all over the place. Many foreigners that move to the DR cannot afford a new one. A new SUV financed over 4 years will run over RD$20,000 a month.

It's a sign that the money is pouring in. It may not be well distributed yet, but the rich always lead the poor in growth and the poor benefit immensely because it brings goods, services, jobs, capital investment, and heavy trade. And the DR doesn't have to blow such a huge chunk of their budget on defense and technology development, foreign policy payments and wars, or arts and other non-revenue generating expenses.

The USA has welfare, medicare, medicaid, and an endless list of social programs. The DR has government jobs. Not an even distrubution but not too overspent either when you consider where they don't spend.

If anything, one can cry the rich getting richer while the poor stay poor. With infrastructure and all the other things coming, the poor will have opportunity, which is much better than a handout.

I think they CAN afford all these loans if even a modest amount makes it into the development of the country as described above. Right now they have the luxury. The USA in the meantime, has one hand tied with excessive excersize of control over the people in and out of the USA and are creating a police state that is rapidly going global.

That is next level in pump priming for the USA. The DR is still in the development stage where growth comes fast and easy.

 

[Pib]

The presence of many SUV's is indeed a sign... It's a sign that the money is pouring in. It may not be well distributed yet, but the rich always lead the poor in growth and the poor benefit immensely

I don't think so. Trickle down won't work in this case because these people are not entrepreneurs, they are just thieves who think the cow will be there to be milked every morning for the rest of their lives. Most will run out of money after they (who lack entreprenurial spirit and know-how) run out of money in a couple of years and will be campaining to get in government again.

I've seen this time and time again. Get a government post => get rich fast => get out of government =>keep spending like crazy => go poor => campaign for a new government post.....

 

[Escott]

Pib you are going under the assumption that all these SUV's are owned by politicos which they are not.

 

[Paul Thate]

the blue plates on them suggest they are..

 

[x_man]

After reading all of this

I have come to the conclusion: The DR is not ready for democracy!
You guys need a KING or QUEEN like Friederich the Great of Prussia or
Queen Victoria of England. Those have educated and shaped their people
so that they understood that the common good can only be achieved
by disciplining the individual. After this stage democracy may be possible?
Or may be a guy like Bonaparte could save your country? He did a lot of
good things for France. Although he should have stayed out of Russia.
X

 

[Jim Hinsch]

I don't think so. Trickle down won't work ...keep spending.....

Spending IS trickle down. So if they spend like crazy, the money will trickle down like crazy. Somebody has to be supplying, manufacturing, or providing all those goods and services they spend their money on.

 

[Paul Thate]

as you say they spend on SUV's.
Spending on SUV is not helping the DR trickle down.
it might help the japanese trickle down. But not the DR economy.

Jim your support for this corrupt Dr goverment
would make Ayn Rand turn over in her grave, Hehehe
May she rest in peace.
Everything this goverment does or stand for is anathema to her

 

[Jim Hinsch]

The SUV' thing in and of itself is not trickle down, but as our own educated TW/GOLO said (he was right you know), it is indicative. It is a sign there is money to be spent and being spent. A new SUV is a luxury item. When you see lots of luxury items, there is money to being spent and spent big. You don't like the SUV example? Fine, pick any luxury that is happening all over the place.

I don't support the government of the DR, nor am I against it. Just an educated observer.

With regards to corruption, in Latin America, unfairness is often characterized as corruption. When outright corruption can be proven and the proper authorities get involved, people lose their jobs, go to jail, and have assets siezed. It seems to take place only when the media get hold of the story. The media is one heck of a powerful force.

I'd say the problem isn't the corruption, but the failure to investigate and prosecute corruption.

As in the USA, there are laws upon laws. If we'd just enforce the laws we have, we'd be miles further than we are by making more laws.

Any seasoned Dominican will tell you that the DR is NOT a poor country. It just has a lot of poor people. It has a wealthy class that would make your head spin and there are a lot more wealthy than an outsider would think. Somebody is buying those expensive houses and condos, shopping at those expensive mall stores, etc.

Have you ever been told that Dominicans are Muy Comparones?

 

[mobrouser]

How many Caribbean nations can boast the number of international airports that the Dominican Republic has?

i have often thought that if the powers-that-be actually did spend money on infrastructure, and then maintained it, ie. a usable, well-planned system of roads and rail lines there would be no need for 7 international airports on a land mass no bigger than Southern Ontario.

mob

 

[Paul Thate]

Jim I wish you had not quoted TW/golo
I agree with most of your post.
The DR is indeed a rich country with many more rich people as people would think.
I think corruption how ever is easier to combat if the political will is there. which it is not. Who do you want to be the prosecutor.??
Do it the same way as else where . If the standard of living
seems to excesive to the income . Let the man explain
where it comes from.If they cant they go in jail.

If some body makes 40 000 pesos a months
you know he cant afford a land cruiser of 1.3 million pesos.
a 2 million peso condo etc.

the trickle down from expensive items does not apply
since none of it is produced here.

all is imported . So does not benifit the country as an economic motor.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

That does seem a bit out of place, doesn't it. Then again, look at all the little Caribbean islands that have 1 airport. By the landmass equation, the DR doesn't have enough airports!

So they are ahead of the game when it comes to airports. I think it's good planning. Look at the USA. The major airports are choking, no room to build or expand.

They are ahead in the communications game too. While the rest of the world spent 50 years wiring up the place, they just waited it out and went wireless from the start.

An now look at the roads. Instead of building a bunch of good roads to connect the towns, roads that can't handle the traffic 20 years after they're built or cost more to maintain than the gasoline tax pays for, they just don't build them at all. Then in just a few years, wham! Freeways in every direction (a couple are complete, several more within 5 years).

Did you say planning? Gee, it seems to me that a bunch on this board just in the last few years have been crying about anything that is "planned".

Planning sounds a lot like artificial, unnatural, commercial, like everywhere else, boring, not why people visit the Dominican Republic, destroying nature, and on and on.

Yeah, a grand plan would be fantastic, but they've got a bit of something else that has to come first that they didn't have 10 years ago, and that's vision.

For a country their size and at their state of development, they sure have a lot of environmental cry babies too. It took the USA a long time to get to that point, where people had enough time with nothing better to do.

That's why I laugh a bit when I see cell-phone-while-driving laws, underage drinking raids, and parking meters coming before driking water, electricity, and justice reform. Adios Mio! There are people sitting in jails for a year or more that haven't even had their day in court yet, some of them minors!

Someone needs to point out priorities. Who wants to invest in a country where you have to purify and possibly supply your own water, supply your own electricity, and not getting locked up long term or screwed by the legal system and/or authorities is just a matter of luck or personal connections, or could change with every election or change in the local Colonel or Police Captain (which is rather frequent from my experience).

They'll get there. Just like the building of streets and then putting in a sewer as an after thought, or creating a cell-phone-while-driving law and then deciding maybe people should all have their drivers licenses and license plates. Maybe not in the right order, but things are coming.

 

[Jim Hinsch]

I think corruption ... Do it the same way as else where . If the standard of living seems to excesive to the income ...

Like I said, they need some good firm English style law and order to cut down on the misbehaving.

the trickle down from expensive items does not apply ... all is imported . So does not benifit the country as an economic motor.

Ah, but it does. It's called import duty, and the USA used to be funded almost entirely by it prior to the introduction of the federal income tax. So the govt makes out and that is one part of the trickle down.

The other part is someone needs to maintain these luxury goods and for every so many jeepetas, you have a housekeeper, watchman, waiter, clothing store, mechanic, road builder, and house painter that get to keep their job.

And what about the all the kids that can go to a good expensive private school. I bet the kids going to school, a housekeeper, many nights on the town, trips to the cabana, lots of cell phone use, and plenty of food on the table comes before that second jeepeta.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

More Swiss Banks

That's correct, the SUVs are not all owned by politicos. The remainder are owned by Dominican and Dominican-York drug trafficers. What do the biggest players among them have in common? Swiss banks (and Bermuda, Cayman, Liechtenstein, etc., banks). The big-timers move the bulk of their money to Swiss banks - which, obviously, does not maximize economic growth for the DR. The SUVs are manufactured in Japan, too.

As stupid as the US "war on drugs" is (a topic for another day), it's done wonders for SUV sales in the DR. In fact, I'll admit that drug profits have benefited the Dominican economy to some extent. Dominican-yorks do buy big, expensive houses and open car washes all over the place (some of you may have wondered about the proliferation of car washes). But these people, just like Pib's politicians, often lack the skill to capitalize on their ill-gotten gain. The result is very little economic formentation or trickle-down.

 

[mondongo]

Dominican Republic a RICH country.....what the heck are you guys smoking? Give me some....I wanna go delusional too!!


Lets me soil this argument with I like to refer to as FACTS:

Per person annual income, in US$:

USA: 35,000
Mexico: 6,000
D.R. 2,500


mondongo

Seeker of Truth

 

[Pib]

Attention DR1 shoppers:

This is NOT the forum for hijacked threads, personal attacks and such. Those who want to continue their Golo, Evil or Saint? conversation, please take the elevator to your right and check the new thread in the General Forum. Those wishing to beat the mods with a stick, please stand in that line that goes around the block. The rest, please continue comparing Milagros with Evita _{this is what this thread is about, right?}

Thank you for shopping at DR1

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Dominican Republic a RICH country.....what the heck are you guys smoking?

A section of it is very wealthy. Perhaps as much as 5%, or nearly half a million people.

 

[harold]

Mondongo you are wrong!

According to world fact book:

GNP per capita is $5700

 

[tgraf12]

He said personal income, not Gross National Product. IIRC, GNP per capita is calculated by taking the GNP divided roughly by the population along with a few other calculations. All it means is that each person in the population supposedly contributes X dollars or pesos to the GNP. It's a meaningless number except to rabid economists and other number crunchers.