I also feel many have in fact received a raw deal. The typical scenario that I see is a 20-something year old who was taken as a child to the US by his parents in the 1980s when the borders were more pourous. He was never legalized, and in fact, the government turned a blind eye to him and provided him a decent education. He screwed up and comitted a relatively minor crime. If you or I or one of our kids had done the same, we would have received probation for the offense. But as an illegal alien, they received a prison sentence of 3-5 years. They are paroled after a year and immediatly put on a plane back to the DR. They are dumped into a society that they have never experienced. They left behind their parents, siblings and the only life they ever knew. I wonder how many of us could survive here without coming here with resources.MrMike said:
- Thread starter Robert
- Start date
Deportee's, what should happen to them?
“Right now the DR is importing trained criminals”
should read (importing trained ex-criminals).
Those of you with the bleeding hearts should have been raised by my mother who would tell me “You made your bed now lay in it”. The vast majority of the population living in the US, both legally and illegally, have been doing so for a number of years without turning to crime to survive. If a person can’t or won’t make it in a land of opportunity such as the US what gives them the right to continue to pry on those that don’t partake in crime?
Robert,
I honestly don’t think there is anything the DR government can do simply because the deportees have served their punishment and are now ex-criminals. Holding the status as an ex-criminal does not make them a criminal in this country unless the government could prove that they left this country illegally and then would have grounds to convict them for breaking a Dominican law.
In almost all countries the fear of crime is a greater problem than crime itself. In the US figures show that for every 100 serious crimes reported, there are 25 arrests and 12 convictions with only three imprisonments. With 75% of the criminals not being caught the fear of crime escalates. Place that fear on top of a large number of ex-criminals roaming the streets and you are faced with a dilemma.
As the sophistication of the DR police in comparison with the US leaves a lot to be desired then the crime and fear thereof are destined to rise.
The only thing that I think the DR can do is for the police to become more sophisticated and also to try to keep an eye on the deportees. You can not circumvent a persons civil rights and freedoms if you want to maintain a democracy.
Rick
should read (importing trained ex-criminals).
Those of you with the bleeding hearts should have been raised by my mother who would tell me “You made your bed now lay in it”. The vast majority of the population living in the US, both legally and illegally, have been doing so for a number of years without turning to crime to survive. If a person can’t or won’t make it in a land of opportunity such as the US what gives them the right to continue to pry on those that don’t partake in crime?
Robert,
I honestly don’t think there is anything the DR government can do simply because the deportees have served their punishment and are now ex-criminals. Holding the status as an ex-criminal does not make them a criminal in this country unless the government could prove that they left this country illegally and then would have grounds to convict them for breaking a Dominican law.
In almost all countries the fear of crime is a greater problem than crime itself. In the US figures show that for every 100 serious crimes reported, there are 25 arrests and 12 convictions with only three imprisonments. With 75% of the criminals not being caught the fear of crime escalates. Place that fear on top of a large number of ex-criminals roaming the streets and you are faced with a dilemma.
As the sophistication of the DR police in comparison with the US leaves a lot to be desired then the crime and fear thereof are destined to rise.
The only thing that I think the DR can do is for the police to become more sophisticated and also to try to keep an eye on the deportees. You can not circumvent a persons civil rights and freedoms if you want to maintain a democracy.
Rick
The question is a good one, but there is, however, no answer possible.
the DR is not logistically capable of supervising these people in any meaningful way.
Some, as has been pointed out, are hardly what we would call "criminals", but others are hardened and vicious individuals.
One of the things i have seen in print is the reality that many of these people have nobody here!! Their whole family is back in the states!! they don't know anyone and they don't know how to act, beyond their US behavior...Thus they have nof all back system to help them...
HB
the DR is not logistically capable of supervising these people in any meaningful way.
Some, as has been pointed out, are hardly what we would call "criminals", but others are hardened and vicious individuals.
One of the things i have seen in print is the reality that many of these people have nobody here!! Their whole family is back in the states!! they don't know anyone and they don't know how to act, beyond their US behavior...Thus they have nof all back system to help them...
HB
We're all barking up a skinned tree"
The social delimma we aare faced with is one on a failure to instill an ingredient known as "self-discipline" into a person at a young age and continuously reinforcing that ingredient into young adulthood.
Even in a society as stongly disciplined as the US Armed Forces, there exists those who would/do violate the Law (Uniform Code of Military Justice) of those bodies which some deem to be excessively harsh in their appliction.
When I studied Pshchology 101 at the U of Houston in the 40's it was stated that "character" and "personality" were the product of 10% heredity and 90% social environment. I questioned that then and continue to do so. What I do know is this: If a person is raised by parents who show love and attention and who do not "spare the rod" when faced with a severe disciplinary problem fostered by their offsprings actions contrary to their established FAIR rules, then that person "usually' turns out to be a law-abiding citizen who follows the rules and never becomes estranged from the law.
On the other hand, if those parents don't pay attention nor punish when called for, that person will be a delinquent at some future time in their life.
That's a generalization, folks, nothing more nor nothing less, but I have found it to be true in most cases.
Once these people find that it is easy to gain what they want by operating outside the law, the habit becomes more or less permanent. Those who have taken up with drugs are double driven and "rehabilitation" is more often than not, not successful. The drugs have a character-destroying manner about them and the weak character, to begin with, most frequently succumbs to that effect.
I might add at this point that most Dominican parents make no attempt to instill self-discipline in their offspring, nor do they attempt very much "on-the-spot" correction, but let them go their own way from birth. And, no, that isn't always the case. It's just what I have observed in the majority of cases.
So, what's the answer?
I think Hillbilly said it very well.
I will say this. If a person was taken/went to the US at a very young age and never applied for citizenship, then it is his fault alone for transgressing the law (which he was well aware of doing) and getting himself deported as a result. he has no-one else to blame but himself for the delimma he finds himself in. All the "bleeding hearts" stating is case, notwithstanding. He has exactly what he deserves. Maybe if he were to think about that instead of blaming some faceless other person for his problem. He mde his bed, now he must sleep in it. If he goes back to his lawless ways here and is caught, he'll have much more "hard time" in which to consider what to do next. If he isn't just stupid, he'll sweep streets rather than face that hard time in the DR.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
The social delimma we aare faced with is one on a failure to instill an ingredient known as "self-discipline" into a person at a young age and continuously reinforcing that ingredient into young adulthood.
Even in a society as stongly disciplined as the US Armed Forces, there exists those who would/do violate the Law (Uniform Code of Military Justice) of those bodies which some deem to be excessively harsh in their appliction.
When I studied Pshchology 101 at the U of Houston in the 40's it was stated that "character" and "personality" were the product of 10% heredity and 90% social environment. I questioned that then and continue to do so. What I do know is this: If a person is raised by parents who show love and attention and who do not "spare the rod" when faced with a severe disciplinary problem fostered by their offsprings actions contrary to their established FAIR rules, then that person "usually' turns out to be a law-abiding citizen who follows the rules and never becomes estranged from the law.
On the other hand, if those parents don't pay attention nor punish when called for, that person will be a delinquent at some future time in their life.
That's a generalization, folks, nothing more nor nothing less, but I have found it to be true in most cases.
Once these people find that it is easy to gain what they want by operating outside the law, the habit becomes more or less permanent. Those who have taken up with drugs are double driven and "rehabilitation" is more often than not, not successful. The drugs have a character-destroying manner about them and the weak character, to begin with, most frequently succumbs to that effect.
I might add at this point that most Dominican parents make no attempt to instill self-discipline in their offspring, nor do they attempt very much "on-the-spot" correction, but let them go their own way from birth. And, no, that isn't always the case. It's just what I have observed in the majority of cases.
So, what's the answer?
I think Hillbilly said it very well.
I will say this. If a person was taken/went to the US at a very young age and never applied for citizenship, then it is his fault alone for transgressing the law (which he was well aware of doing) and getting himself deported as a result. he has no-one else to blame but himself for the delimma he finds himself in. All the "bleeding hearts" stating is case, notwithstanding. He has exactly what he deserves. Maybe if he were to think about that instead of blaming some faceless other person for his problem. He mde his bed, now he must sleep in it. If he goes back to his lawless ways here and is caught, he'll have much more "hard time" in which to consider what to do next. If he isn't just stupid, he'll sweep streets rather than face that hard time in the DR.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
NALs said:
I forgot nothing! I was thinking more along the line of MrMike when he stated, "...A functional society wouldn't have to lock so many people away". But you are right, there are some appalling statistics coming out of the US. For example, 10% of 10-year-old boys are currently being medicated with the antidepressant Ritalin.
...
Folks, please bear in mind that "LOCKS" ( in the actual and metorphorical sense ) only work for the law abiding people of any society. And aren't a deterent to the criminal. And the law abiding don't need the locks. Most serious criminal transgrations are of the one and done type. An abberation, never to be repeated. If the behavior is repeated then cut something off, hurt them back , hard. If a life is taken consider the reality (most are emotional responses that just escalate). If repeated, kill them. dos cuentoves
HOWMAR said:
How about building a huge detention center where they are to spend 40 days in "quarantine" upon arriving back to the DR. The purpose of the quarantine period would be to test them for diseases, etc. but during that period, they could be brought to La Victoria where they would be walked through the complex (repeatedly) so they could get a good up close idea of what awaits them if they return to a life of crime. Then each should be made to sit down with a psychologist (immideately after seeing La Victoria) where they can discuss with the doctor what their plans are now that they are free men in the DR. If nothing else, it will get them to think and perhaps make a decision to try to take the correct path.
Larry
How about establishing trade and vocational facilities that train the offenders to become productive members of society with marketable skills e.g. carpentry, refridgeration, auto mechanic, etc., etc.? If past criminals see no means of escaping their traditional situation, why would they change? They are not trained to do anything else and it would give them a reason to go out and get a job!
rendul said:
Nope.
I dont believe trying to "help" them will do any good. They need to make a decision to help themselves. I like my idea of putting them in a quarantine facility for 40 days and forcing them to visit La Victoria in the process. The problem is most of these guys wont have any plans when they arrive back here. As a result, they will just start looking for opportunity to commit crimes. If they are exposed to La Victoria and forced to sit down with a psychologist and discuss what their plans are, it will force them to actually think about what they can do to make money and to keep from landing themselves in La Victoria. Anyone can get a job selling phone cards or something like that. It's a start. They need to make a decision to take their lives into their own hands and stop looking for society to "help" them.
Larry
Larry,
I agree with you in the point of "helping" them not doing any good. As you know here in the US there are a whole bunch of programs for recently released prisoners. I know a few that have gotten released and have gone back to their old ways. EX: My stepmom's brother. I normally don't like to get personal on any board but what the heck. This guy did 12 years for manslaughter. Came out and 5 months later was back to what he he knew best - dealing drugs and stealing. Eventually he got caught and was sent back.
If a prisoner is presented with how cruel the prisons are in the DR that might deter them to some point from going back to leading their criminous life.
I still think the whole parole thing might work. And if the techonology was available what Mirador recommened - the GPS tracking devices worn on their ankles.
All in all - these people need to be accounted for when back in the DR. Specially the more dangerous ones.
I agree with you in the point of "helping" them not doing any good. As you know here in the US there are a whole bunch of programs for recently released prisoners. I know a few that have gotten released and have gone back to their old ways. EX: My stepmom's brother. I normally don't like to get personal on any board but what the heck. This guy did 12 years for manslaughter. Came out and 5 months later was back to what he he knew best - dealing drugs and stealing. Eventually he got caught and was sent back.
If a prisoner is presented with how cruel the prisons are in the DR that might deter them to some point from going back to leading their criminous life.
I still think the whole parole thing might work. And if the techonology was available what Mirador recommened - the GPS tracking devices worn on their ankles.
All in all - these people need to be accounted for when back in the DR. Specially the more dangerous ones.
The conversation seems to be oriented around forms of incarceration and or a form of probation for those that have been or are criminals. The question that comes to mind is what are your expectations or desires and what altruism is to be derived from this?
Statistics show that about 74% of imprisoned criminals are not first time offenders and about 68% of those crimes committed involve violence and/or drugs which means that prison has not proven to be a deterrent against crime. Violent or drugs crimes are the least likely to be deterred since they are typically motivated by irrational, expressive acts, or are the result of addiction or behavioral and personality problems.
If prison is not effective as a disincentive to offending, what is? Research seems to prove that the incorporation of education is what is needed. Studies show inmates who receive a GED while incarcerated have a lower recidivating rate then an inmate that doesn’t complete a program. The studies also show that the more education acquired while in prison the lower the overall recidivism rate to the point of zero for those acquiring a master’s degree. If this concept works in the process of turning some criminals into law abiding citizens then would not improved education help stop people from becoming criminals? Food for thought.
Prisons and studies of same have been around for centuries and the fact that prisons don’t seem to be and never have been a deterrent to crime and a deterrent to crime is what is desired then the complete thought process must be changed in relation to fighting crime.
A society depends on its government to implement a system of law and order to insure its safety as well as its education and a host of other essential items. Where there is erosion in one area you will usually find same in all areas.
At this point I would like to talk about punishment. The first thing you must do is define punishment.
Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant on a subject as a response to some unwanted behavior or disobedience that the subject has displayed. Or "punishment" might be described as "an authorized imposition of deprivations -- of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens -- because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent.
The most common applications are in legal and similarly 'regulated' contexts, being the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed, i.e. for transgressing a law or command (including prohibitions) given by some authority (such as an educator, employer or supervisor, public or private official).
In the field of Psychology, however, a more restrictive technical definition for "punishment" is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment"). Making an offending student lose recess or suspension are examples of negative punishment, while chores or corporal punishments are examples of positive (i.e. active) punishment. If the offending behavior of the subject does not decrease then it is not considered punishment.
With the above listed definitions I wish to incorporate some of those very wise words stated by Texas Bill in post #25, “If a person is raised by parents who show love and attention and who do not "spare the rod" when faced with a severe disciplinary problem fostered by their offsprings actions contrary to their established FAIR rules, then that person "usually' turns out to be a law-abiding citizen who follows the rules and never becomes estranged from the law.”
If a society wishes to acquire a virtual crime free climate then laws must be imposed and swift and consistent punishment must be applied when a deviation from set rules transpires. This procedure must be started from an early age and starts at home. If a person reaches adulthood with the understanding that there are negative consequences (punishment) for deviation from set rules and laws then the possibility of that person turning out to be a law abiding citizen are greatly enhanced.
If you as a parent are not willing to do your required part the once again as Texas Bill said, “We're all barking up a skinned tree"
Rick
Statistics show that about 74% of imprisoned criminals are not first time offenders and about 68% of those crimes committed involve violence and/or drugs which means that prison has not proven to be a deterrent against crime. Violent or drugs crimes are the least likely to be deterred since they are typically motivated by irrational, expressive acts, or are the result of addiction or behavioral and personality problems.
If prison is not effective as a disincentive to offending, what is? Research seems to prove that the incorporation of education is what is needed. Studies show inmates who receive a GED while incarcerated have a lower recidivating rate then an inmate that doesn’t complete a program. The studies also show that the more education acquired while in prison the lower the overall recidivism rate to the point of zero for those acquiring a master’s degree. If this concept works in the process of turning some criminals into law abiding citizens then would not improved education help stop people from becoming criminals? Food for thought.
Prisons and studies of same have been around for centuries and the fact that prisons don’t seem to be and never have been a deterrent to crime and a deterrent to crime is what is desired then the complete thought process must be changed in relation to fighting crime.
A society depends on its government to implement a system of law and order to insure its safety as well as its education and a host of other essential items. Where there is erosion in one area you will usually find same in all areas.
At this point I would like to talk about punishment. The first thing you must do is define punishment.
Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant on a subject as a response to some unwanted behavior or disobedience that the subject has displayed. Or "punishment" might be described as "an authorized imposition of deprivations -- of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens -- because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent.
The most common applications are in legal and similarly 'regulated' contexts, being the infliction of some kind of pain or loss upon a person for a misdeed, i.e. for transgressing a law or command (including prohibitions) given by some authority (such as an educator, employer or supervisor, public or private official).
In the field of Psychology, however, a more restrictive technical definition for "punishment" is the reduction of a behavior via a stimulus which is applied ("positive punishment") or removed ("negative punishment"). Making an offending student lose recess or suspension are examples of negative punishment, while chores or corporal punishments are examples of positive (i.e. active) punishment. If the offending behavior of the subject does not decrease then it is not considered punishment.
With the above listed definitions I wish to incorporate some of those very wise words stated by Texas Bill in post #25, “If a person is raised by parents who show love and attention and who do not "spare the rod" when faced with a severe disciplinary problem fostered by their offsprings actions contrary to their established FAIR rules, then that person "usually' turns out to be a law-abiding citizen who follows the rules and never becomes estranged from the law.”
If a society wishes to acquire a virtual crime free climate then laws must be imposed and swift and consistent punishment must be applied when a deviation from set rules transpires. This procedure must be started from an early age and starts at home. If a person reaches adulthood with the understanding that there are negative consequences (punishment) for deviation from set rules and laws then the possibility of that person turning out to be a law abiding citizen are greatly enhanced.
If you as a parent are not willing to do your required part the once again as Texas Bill said, “We're all barking up a skinned tree"
Rick
Execution, torture, genocide, medical experiments with the dominican version of Dr. Mengele, hanged in public places as a warning to others, placed in concentration camps with the Camp Commandant as the DR version of Amon Goethe.
No sympathy, no love, no kindness for criminals. I don't believe in rehabilitation. So what if 1 is saved and 100 continue their crime spree. Where is the sympathy for the victim.
Trujillo, donde estas en esta hora negra de la Republica?
No sympathy, no love, no kindness for criminals. I don't believe in rehabilitation. So what if 1 is saved and 100 continue their crime spree. Where is the sympathy for the victim.
Trujillo, donde estas en esta hora negra de la Republica?
What I would do is deport the criminals as soon as they are arrested for a crime IF they are not a legal citizen. This would solve a few problems for both countries. First off the USA would save all the legal fees for their defense and second it would save all the years costs of imprisonment for ilegal criminals.
It would help the DR because their citizens would not be taught by the hardened criminals serving time in the US jails. The less time Dominicans spend in jail the less they learn about how to be educated in the crimial world.
Let's face it crime is expensive to prevent and punish. Let the DR be responsible for their criminals and the USA responsible for theirs.
It would help the DR because their citizens would not be taught by the hardened criminals serving time in the US jails. The less time Dominicans spend in jail the less they learn about how to be educated in the crimial world.
Let's face it crime is expensive to prevent and punish. Let the DR be responsible for their criminals and the USA responsible for theirs.
Mirador said:
All three of you, Mr. Mike, Nals and you, Mirador point out a very significant set of statistics which also makes the following point.
The overall society of the US is one which has /is becoming one of "dependence" on Government Action in substitution of the basic, time-honored one of Family participaation in the overall "raising" of offspring.
Parents, today, in the US are depending more and more on the schools to provide the needed ingredient of "attention" that youngsters need to grow into productive individuals accepted by society. Too many parents leave it up to "The Guvment" to provide the guidance they are too busy making money to provide.
Although I realize that is a generalization, the evidence is very much in the forefront which supports that premise.
Many parents and others (judges) who force their sons and daughters into the Armed Forces in hopes that the "Service" will "straighten them out" blame the Services for not doing so. My answer is: "We Commanders in the Service, even with the disciplinary tools available cannot change the course of development of a character/personality denied through 17-19 years of parental dis-discipline and mis-guidance". That is a direct quote from your's truly to a very disdraught Mother upon learning that her "poor, fatherless son" was being sent to the Prision for Grand Larceny as the head of a 15 member theft gang operating in the Denver environs.
Unfortunately, Society doesn't have the legal tools to provide correctional punishment in all the cases being/have been tried in a court of Law. I seriously doubt if it ever will have what it needs.
The beginings are in the hand of the parents. As long as these parents abrogate their responsibilities to their offspring that will be the case.
Spare the rod, allow permissiveness to reign, and end up with overpopulated prisions.
Texas Bill
G
gary short
Guest
I agree with you a 100%, however in order for these criminals to participate in training they'd have to have a rudimentry background in math and basic physics. So training these people is a huge commitment, on both sides.rendul said:
The deportees are involved in crime because it's more profitable on a short term basis than working like joe average.
Perhaps throwing them into the can for a few weeks would change their outlook.
gary short said:
A very prominent Catholic Bishop once said (maybe someone else, also):
"Give me a child for the first five years of its life and I will make it what it will be for the remainder of it's life".
Don't remember his name, but truer words were never spoken/written.
It is extremely difficult for a personality to change the habit patterns acquired during its formative years.
For that reason alone, it is extremely important for parents to "pay attention" to the social development of their children and to take whatever corrective measures necessary to assure a "proper" and socially acceptable development.
Texas Bill