Dominican Army/Air Force what are they good for?

Don Juan

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I often wondered who we're defending against to justify having a multi-billion dollar armada. Do we fear an invasion from Haiti? From Cuba? From Canada? The DR. spends billions yearly to protect itself, but from whom?? Can somebody enlighten me on this? What exactly is the role of the Amy ,Air force, Navy in the DR.??
 
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Texas Bill

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Don Juan said:
I often wondered who we're defending against to justify having a multi-billion dollar armada. Do we fear an invasion from Haiti? From Cuba? From Canada? The DR. spends billions yearly to protect itself, but from whom?? Can somebody enlighten me on this? What exactly is the role of the Amy ,Air force, Navy in the DR.??

They really have no function except to toady to the President. He keeps them supplied with goodies (Jeepetas, Houses, etc., etc. to essentially keep them off his back and not kick him out of office.

You've heard the expression, "Useless as tits on a boar"? That's the DR Armed Forces. They're a graft machine!

Texas Bill
 

Narcosis

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It figures Texas Bill would answer this one with the response he gave.

You need to get your views straight.

I recall one of your posts on another thread boasting about how Uncle Sam has maintained the "South of the Border" countries free from comunism. Who helped with that agenda if not the armed forces?

Today it is the war on drugs and terrorism.

Make up your mind on your ping-pong views. If they are so useless why so much cooperation and interest from the US?

BTW: I can assure you many $$$ gifts are made to officials from uncle sam as well.
 

ricktoronto

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It is a Ruse! You Caught Us!

Don Juan said:
I often wondered who we're defending against to justify having a multi-billion dollar armada. Do we fear an invasion From Cuba? From Canada?

Our 450 troops in Haiti are really getting ready to rush the border to do a coup and install Johhny Ventura as president. Merengue time!
 
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Texas Bill

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Narcosis said:
It figures Texas Bill would answer this one with the response he gave.

You need to get your views straight.

I recall one of your posts on another thread boasting about how Uncle Sam has maintained the "South of the Border" countries free from comunism. Who helped with that agenda if not the armed forces?

Today it is the war on drugs and terrorism.

Make up your mind on your ping-pong views. If they are so useless why so much cooperation and interest from the US?

BTW: I can assure you many $$$ gifts are made to officials from uncle sam as well.


Boo Hoo, u don wike me anymore.

Narcosis;

I will give unqualified support for ANY military establishment in ANY country where they fulfill their proper duties and responsibilities to the establishment!
I will NOT give that support to a corrupt machine which exists solely for it's own benefit and which uses their uniform of authority for their own agrandizement and benefit as does the Dominican Army!

Daily, I see these 'soldados' harass Haitians traveling with authorized visas in this country. They, through intimidation, force them to fork over an additional 'fee', before allowing them to proceed, at each military check point along the 'highway' from Dajabon to Santiago.

I know there are many in the armed forces who don't succumb to such a method, but have observed that they are the exception and not the rule.

To me, as an ex-military man, the exercise of one's authority for personal gain is absolutely insupportable and in my view is grossly dishonorable. From what I read, and from what I have observed personally, the armed forces of this country is a corrupt mechanism supported by a corrupt government, is top-heavy in senior 'officers', to the point of being ridiculous in that they have no other function but to show up for 'work' and get paid.

Now, does that answer your comment, or must I write a book???

Texas Bill
 

Robert

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Texas bill is spot on! Yes, I'm sure some members of the armed forces are involved in all sorts of illegal activities.

Why they are needed is beyond me. Then again, they provide employment, food and shelter for many.

I can only imagine how a new tourist arrival feels if they drive south to the boarder. Lot's of check points and M16's floating about.
 

Narcosis

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Armed Forces

Dominican armed forces are far from perfect and in my personal opinion I would agree to the issues you stated above.

The fact is, that aside, again we see a typical arrogant response to a cynical post to begin with.

What is the use of this type of response if there is no intent to a constructive debate in the first place? What point are you trying to make besides the fact it is another way to belittle the country that graciously hosts you? What is more insulting is that these armed forces are at the service of your agenda and not necessarily that of the Dominican people on certain fronts.

This is the same useless armed forces that are in Iraq, that turn back dominican boat people from reaching PR, that arrest Dominican citizens and extradite them to the US.

The same usless armed forces that protects me, my family and my property as well as that of my friends and neigbors.


PS: After seeing the events in Spain this morning I am more thankful that no matter how poor or backwards our armed forces may seem to some of you, they have avoided events like the one today from happenning here and hopefully in the future as well
 

Don Juan

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Look at Costa Rica

This beautiful country, which probably has more to fear from its neighbors than we do, has not had a standing army since early 1900's. I suspect that all the billions that would have gone to these parasites (the army, air force etc.), have instead gone to improve the peoples standard of living. They have one of the highest literacy levels in the world. they have not had terrorist attacks nor fear being relieved of their properties as NARCOSIS had mention as good reason for having armed forces. This country is as peaceful as one can hope for, no wonder so many Yanks, Canucks and Europeans have made it their home!
 

Narcosis

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Don Juan:

I do business in Costa Rica and lived there for 2 years, I also do business in Panama (no Army since Noriega) as well.

Far from being the "Switzerland of Central America" I can assure you Costa Rica has far worse crime rate than the DR.

Petty crime is common, many people I know there has been mugged or had their car stolen. Costa Rica is a country where car thieves will call you to negotiate to get your car back with almost total lack of cooperation from law enforcement which is very poor in preventing crime.

Tourists are regularly murdered. Nicas cross the boarder easier than Haitians do here, as do Colombian drug smugglers that infiltrate and travel through CR easier than in Colombia.

Police are regularly murdered in Limon by drug traffickers that virtually rule certain areas of rural parts of CR same as in the Darien region of Panama where Drug traffickers virtually rule inside Panamanian soil with very little the authorities can do.

I can go on and on about the void these countries have because of a lack of an armed forces. Sure there are positives but some of the negatives are starting to really weigh on these nations.

Again if some of you wish to blindly bash the DR armed forces I will drop out of this debate and won't waste my time, because my agenda is not to defend the Dominican armed forces, it is to have a true debate on the subject in reference.
 
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Texas Bill

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Narcosis said:
Dominican armed forces are far from perfect and in my personal opinion I would agree to the issues you stated above.

The fact is, that aside, again we see a typical arrogant response to a cynical post to begin with.

What is the use of this type of response if there is no intent to a constructive debate in the first place? What point are you trying to make besides the fact it is another way to belittle the country that graciously hosts you? What is more insulting is that these armed forces are at the service of your agenda and not necessarily that of the Dominican people on certain fronts.

This is the same useless armed forces that are in Iraq, that turn back dominican boat people from reaching PR, that arrest Dominican citizens and extradite them to the US.

The same usless armed forces that protects me, my family and my property as well as that of my friends and neigbors.


PS: After seeing the events in Spain this morning I am more thankful that no matter how poor or backwards our armed forces may seem to some of you, they have avoided events like the one today from happenning here and hopefully in the future as well

I hate to disagree with you, Narcosis, but I fail to see where my post was "arrogant", as you put it. The post was an honest observation of what I have seen and heard. Now if that is arrogant, then mea culpa!

I would submit that you are responding in a typical fashion in that anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, arrrogant and not well informed.

Quit rationalizing, quit hammering those who disagree with you over the head and maybe you'll get some answers you seem to want.

You seem to wear the blinders that you accuse others of having and viewing the world with.

I've gone back and looked over a number of my previous posts on a number of subjects and will be the first to admit that I haven't responded in exactly a gentlemanly fashion. Albeit that i fell into your(and others of your ilk) traps.
For that I am ashamed. Not because I answered in the fashion I did, but because I answered emotionally.

Look out in the future. I'm on to your methodology now and will answer accordingly in a much better fashion.

Texas Bill
 

Narcosis

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Bill

Read the beginning of the post you just copied.

I actually agree with many of the things you say...Some of the $$ that goes to the generals pockets is mine and of my peers, so of course I'm pissed. That is one thing, but I think when a debate is to be done, let us keep it clean and without the exagerations and generalizations especially when you attack an institution like this one, that has historical importance and is a pillar of a nation as any armed forces of any country is.
 

Texas Bill

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Narcosis said:
Bill

Read the beginning of the post you just copied.

I actually agree with many of the things you say...Some of the $$ that goes to the generals pockets is mine and of my peers, so of course I'm pissed. That is one thing, but I think when a debate is to be done, let us keep it clean and without the exagerations and generalizations especially when you attack an institution like this one, that has historical importance and is a pillar of a nation as any armed forces of any country is.

OK, I see your point and I agree with your summation as to the necessity of keeping it clean.

Allow me to rumble on a little more in depth.

You mention the fact that DR Troops are in Iraq fulfilling the US call to the WORLD to provide troops to help that nation get back on it's feet. I agree that as far as I have been able to determine, they are fulfilling their mandate with honor.
Point in their favor.

You allude to their policeing this nation to keep out terrorists and druggies.
I wouldn't lump those mandates together, since they are two entirely seperate functions and require different training to be effective.
I will say that I'm not familiar with any anti-terrorists training the armed forces may be receiving or have received in the past, but (here is an arrogant statement for you) wold submit that the facilities DO NOT exist for such training and thus the ability of the armed forces to be a deterrent is moot.

In the recent conflict in Haiti, the Armed forces responded very well and aparently effectively sealed the border at the major crossing points(ie. where there were Haitian road termanus points with DR). I personally observed this in the Dajabon area, conferred with the Colonel in charge there and was well satisfied that they were doing a good job. I noticed, however, that there was only one soldier amoung the many who had a smattering of military discipline about him. And I'm not talking about spit and polish, but of bearing, attention to detail, and an awareness of what was going on around his post.

What I have based my opinions and observations on has it's background in almost 30 years of military service, both as an enlisted man and as an officer. I arrogantly submit those credentials as being one of an expert in ordinary military matters which the average civilian is never exposed to. We're speaking of bearing, self discipline, knowledge of maneuver, administration, conservance of material and manpower, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

I see a very top heavy military establishment, of very limited use (ie., no artillary support, no air support, sloppy roadmarch, highly undisciplined and poorly led in the upper over expanded echelons.

The Dominican Army would be better served by being mean and lean, led highly motivated NCO's and Officers and equipped and paid accordingly.

I don't mean to infer that the Armed Forces are peopled by buffoons. What I have observed is more like what we refer to as the "2nd Lt" syndrome wherein the individual is so new to the authority vested in him it goes to his head and he must impress the world with his importance. This seems to be the case in many observations and I'm not sure that it's not a national characteristic of the male of the species. Machismo seems to be very important here. Now that is just another observation, not denigration since we're all subject to the egotism of our sex.

Finally, can you cite to me examples of specialized training in the area of anti-terrorism interdiction, anti-drug interdiction, special investigation, deployment of platoon, company, battalion and regimental maneuvering to defend a specific military target, and counter attack from that defense aainst an armed enemy large or small? If you can't, then I rest my case as to the effectiveness of the forces as a national weapon against any agressor, large or small.

Texas Bill
 

Narcosis

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Many, of course not all officials especially those that entered the armed forces as cadettes, went to US military acadamies and there are many on-going programs for candidates to go to West Point as well as others.

I am by far no expert on this subject but I do know we have specialized troops in all of the areas you mentioned.

Maybe one of the experts can explain in more detail.
 
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jsizemore

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Nco?

Is there a professional NCO corp within the DR military? Is there that salty SGT out there with the troops that is the father figure on all matters from wood craft to fire and manuver?
Acadamy trained officers are still wet behind the ears until they have been groomed by the Senior NCOs.
John
 

Dominican Tony

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The Dominican Army has been around for 160 years; It is not the most modern and perfect army in the world, then again all Armed Forces of the world have corruption within their ranks (yes, there's plenty in the United States Army going on), but my point is that the Dominican Armed Forces will always be there as long as there is a Dominican Republic.
Being Dominican and having various family members in the Dominican Armed Forces as i have always stated in here, i can see why a foreigner would be so critical and observent of our interests (not the same as the world power armed forces, that's obvious right?), yet the Dominican Republic and most Dominican people want to keep an Armed Force intact. No we don't have top corps if i may, in the D.R. That's the United States Armed Forces that need to worry about keeping their soldiers above all other armed forces in the world, the U.S. has many enemy countries around the world and the list keeps growing every year....The D.R. doesn't, rather long-time enemies such as Cuba are our friends, so please stop the criticism on the Dominican Army, there's way more worst ones in other countries, yet these are all independent countries and have their way about doing things. On a positive note, the Dominican Armed Forces are bringing forth the 7th promotion of Voluntary Military Service for young Dominicans aged 18-24 from both sexes, 600 have already signed up for the latest one and since the first one 7,000 have graduated. It's accomplishments like those that never hit the English speaking public, just the negative notes.

By the way, we have a multi-national force made up by Canada, Holland, England, U.S., Bahamas, Belice, Guyana, Jamaica, Surinam, and Trinidad & Tobago coming over to the D.R. on March 23rd to practice on combined exercises with the Dominican Armed Forces. Why? To establish a maritime and terrestial force which will do exercises called "Tradewinds 2004" from the centers of command to support and bring forth the training for the Caribbean area which will all take place in the Dominican Republic. (i'm sure DR1 should post this sooner or later, i'm not going to discusss it any further)

The Dominican Republic is not just Puerto Plata, La Romana, Santo Domingo and the border area.....if you question the lack of dicipline in the Dominican Armed Forces and why there should be an army in the first place, i can see your point of view on the latter, but do remember you are in the Dominican Republic where things work differently just like any other country you would visit, each has it's own laws and ethics.
 

Oche

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I think that what Bill was trying to point out was, that if you compare the dominican army with the US army, it will come out as untrained, obsolete, undisciplined, etc...but hey, it's a third world country army, what can you expect?
 

Texas Bill

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Dominican Tony & Oche;

I realize that my posts appear to be OVERLY critical, but submit that the effectiveness of the Dominican Military Establishment in both the Domestic AND the International scene is marginal at best.

The funds that are budgeted for training, procurement, expansion and maintenance of the establishment are not, from what I have seen and heard(the latter being heresay at best), being used for their budgeted purposes, but are being siphoned off at the top levels by the Senior Officers who are abrogating their responsibilities as leaders. I submit that it is those senior leaders and their immediate subordinates who are responsible for the present state of the unprofessional image produced and observed by those of us who have spent a lifetime in military service. We can't help but be critical; I would hope that you will understand that. I am not comparing the Dominican Armed Forces with that of the USA, but viewing it from the standpoint of what a Professional Armed Force should exemplify, both Domestically and Internationally.
I have read recently that monies are being provided for certain 'schools' for the members of the Armed Forces. I really don't know what the thrust of those schools consists of. I solicit knowledgeble information regarding such, how the schools are organized, and whether or not the funds are used TOTALLY for such schools or, are again being siphoned off to the benefit of the Senior heirarchy of the establishment.
As a point of information; my background requires me, by virtue of habit and training, to hold fellow military incumbants in high respect and regard until they prove, by actions, that that respect and regard is misplaced. The visible actions, comments, etc., of many of the existing establishment's official have erroded that respect and regard. That may be construed as arrogance on the part of some readers, but it is a fact of my life.

As a point of philosophical meandering; Dominicans SHOULD, as a matter of course, have a high regard and respect for their Armed Forces. However, they should also be critical of it's shortcomings and lack of effectiveness in the military mileau. After all, these are the very forces which will defend your country and political environment in it's time of need. You should expect and demand the highest order of discipline, training, and effectiveness possible within the budgetary constraints imposed. That's what we call "Mean & Lean". Expect and demand no more and no less than the Best.

I rest my case.

Texas Bill
 

Don Juan

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What was that?

I see NARCOSIS and Dom. Tony praising the DR forces, but I'm still to see a valid answer to the original question: What are they good for and who are we defending against? I submit that aside from a very few dedicated (and educated) officers that want to work for the betterment of our little island, these institutions are nothing but a huge drain on the economy. There seems to be too many military personnel profitteering from their positions as officers. Too much graft and abuse of power coming from their ranks! Instead, we need strong,dedicated,disciplined police force to combat crime and a coast guard to interdict smugglers. There's no need for an army, air force or navy such as it is. I challenge any of you to show cause as to why they should not be disbanded and reconstituded (minus the corrupt ones) as stated above.
 
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Texas Bill

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Don Juan said:
I see NARCOSIS and Dom. Tony praising the DR forces, but I'm still to see a valid answer to the original question: What are they good for and who are we defending against? I submit that aside from a very few dedicated (and educated) officers that want to work for the betterment of our little island, these institutions are nothing but a huge drain on the economy. There seems to be too many military personnel profitteering from their positions as officers. Too much graft and abuse of power coming from their ranks! Instead, we need strong,dedicated,disciplined police force to combat crime and a coast guard to interdict smugglers. There's no need for an army, air force or navy such as it is. I challenge any of you to show cause as to why they should not be disbanded and reconstituded (minus the corrupt ones) as stated above.

Don Juan...

Look back at some of my posts in this same veig in 2003. You will see that I made the same suggestion you just did by alluding to the existing structure of the National Police of Costa Rica.

In subsequent posts along that veig, it was pointed out that such force in Costa Rica was, in fact, a military force similar to an Army in that the equipment, ie., tanks, artillery, etc., etc., was still in "immediate use" storage and could be employed on a very short notice. What that implied is obvious to those with even a modicum of knowsedge in military matters.

The thrust of all this is to point out that marriage of the police functions, military functions(both as an arm of policy) would be a good solution, PROVIDING the NECESSARY level of training, equipping, financial support and discipline could and would be provided and demanded. It is ONLY through such a scenario that ANY military and/or psuedo-military organization can PROPERLY function and be effective.

In order for the above to be realistically implemented it would be necessary for the GENERAL PUBLIC to CONSTANTLY demand the exemplery performance of such a force, and I kon't think the general public really knows what they want along those lines.

The effort MUST come from the bottom, NOT be provided by what the top wants and that just hasn't happened, and in my estimation, will never happen until there is a complete turn-around of the political mindset of the Dominican People.

I'm not trying to be super critical nor expound arrogantly. Just trying to point out the failures and provide a midicum of solution as I see it. If I step on toes and hurt feelings in the process then forgive me, but the truth (as I see it) is always better to admit than to try and rationalize away.

Texas Bill
 

mariaobetsanov

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Military need

The Dominican Republic did not see a 9-11 because all area of importance have been guarded since I don't know when. My children learned to appriciated the presence of arm guards that where posted all over the county when they lived in SD, in 1984-1985. When the revolt occur we had choosen to live on the third floor due to recurity reason. A watch pot never boils. That why while my children are born American they maintain the tradictions of old Dominicans. Traditions don't change by location. We expect our children to have certain values and morals. If all those national security guards where removed there would be great changes for all. Democracy is the most innificient form of Government. Dominican can't deal with it.