Dominican Color/Racial Preference Findings

[NALs]

I think Chip brings an interesting insight into the discussion. It seems that to many African Americans, their perception of race is the basis of their identity and this probably explains why they are shocked when people from other countries don’t always see them eye-to-eye, regarding this issue.

Ironically, I consider this way of seeing the world to be quite racist, simply because race is the central theme when culture, history, and language is what truly defines a person’s identity and outlook. Not to mention that the US has a very unique definition of what each race is and who is suppose to belong in each category. Seeing the world through a racial filter is, in essence, racist.

Add to that the entrenched denial of the mixed race that is so prevalent in the US, where even if most people know of his/her mixed origin, if one of those mixtures is black, that person will be seen as black. That certainly doesn’t help when it comes to a people whose identity has more to do with cultural ties than anything else.

This misunderstanding between the African Americans and the Dominicans is probably based on the long entrenched rejection African Americans received by their fellow Americans. It probably has lead them to look for other places where they can feel accepted. Since their identity is heavily based on race as understood in the USA, they look for that as the qualifier and then find it hard to accept that other people value culture, history, language more than appearances. Quite frankly, from the cultural standpoint, there's not much in common between Dominicans and African Americans.

This is still part of the stepping out of the American box I was mentioning earlier in the discussion. Some DR1ers have a hard time doing that.

A few examples that points to a much greater issue the AA's face with people from other places. I guess sooner or later the same situation Dominicans face tends to arise, except maybe the AA's thinking of racism every time they are rejected. In other instances, they probably see it as simply a cultural issue.

I think the mis-perceived racism arises too often in the AA minds when it comes to Dominicans because of all the bs anti-Dominican propaganda that has been created in recent decades, and in some way, much of this propaganda was created taking the Haitian problem as its base.

Cape Verdean identity in a land of Black and White

Jamaicans Attitude to Afro-Americans (Jamaica)

Miami's New Ethnic Conflict: Haitians vs. American Blacks - New York Times

African vs. African-American

The rift between African Americans and Africans

 

[imfromda305]

Furthermore, pressing Dominicans on the issue of shared heritage will get you nowhere because most Dominicans have Spanish ancestors at some point or light skinned people in their family so they don't feel comfortable alienating that part of their family. I base this on talking with Dominicans who either used to live in NY or have family there.

My point exactamente! They are quick and happy to alienate their black part of their family and quick and happy to celebrate their white / light part of their family.

But, something just hit me while reading that last post.. and maybe that is something I should learn more about.

It hit me that maybe it's not really about colour but about rivalry. It just hit me.

For instance, Dutch people vs German people for those who knew. This is a white vs white thing, because of the 2nd World War.

A lighter version is Dutch people vs Belgian people, that I can't really call rivalry but it's kinda touchy when you think about it.

In Belgium you got the French speaking part of the country vs the Dutch speaking part.

And as for Americans, don't let me start and republicans vs. democrats.

The reason for playing Devils advocate is because hate should come from a place, I don't know what happened between Haiti and LRD but it has to be something for Dominicans who would be called n*gger in The States to hate Haitian people in LRD.

 

[Chip]

The reason for playing Devils advocate is because hate should come from a place, I don't know what happened between Haiti and LRD but it has to be something for Dominicans who would be called n*gger in The States to hate Haitian people in LRD.

I think to say that most Dominicans hate Haitians may no longer the case given the outpouring of support after the earthquake. Plus Dominican universities are filled with Haitian students some of whom stay and marry Dominicans.

I think you should study DR history more and I think you'll find your answer. BTW I already summarized it for you earlier.

 

[JMB773]

The only latin group African Americans have a little connection with is Puerto Ricans. Most Africans Americans do not even give Dominicans a second thought, and anybody that tells you they do is lying.

 

[NALs]

JMB, you need to acquaint yourself with certain parts of Dominican history to fully understand. However, Americans have never really been invaded multiple times and its people almost annihilated by one of their neighbors. Americans may not be able to relate to what it feels like to have a history like this, then see an intentional misrepresentation of what your culture is based on an agenda that seems to never end. And then have your own government donate a university as an act of goodwill, and one of your neighbor's priests, knowing very well the sensitivity due to the history and the attempt of looking past that, goes on and mentions quotes that directly speak of the destruction of the Dominican people. To make matters worst, attributes the quote to the founder of your country when everyone knows the person who first said that quote was a declared enemy of your country many centuries ago, a hero of your neighbor.

Its never going to end. People focus too much on the Dominican side of things and completely ignore how the other side, even in moments when people try to show a sense of solidarity, decide to touch those centuries old wounds.

Many Dominicans, particularly those that know our history very well, are very sensitive to even the most subtle messages that even today, in times of great solidarity, continue to be sent from the other side.

You can start to understand by reading the following:

Dejando Huellas: Hoy hace 207: El deg?elle de Moca, Santiago y gran parte de la pa?s al retiro de la ocupaci?n haitiana…

In English: Google Translate

That was only the beginning. lol

Such a long time and not even a simple apology has arisen. Instead, subtle messages that rough quite a few feathers are sent from time to time, even now when we're suppose to 'forget' about the past.

 

[JMB773]

I think Chip brings an interesting insight into the discussion. It seems that to many African Americans, their perception of race is the basis of their identity and this probably explains why they are shocked when people from other countries don’t always see them eye-to-eye, regarding this issue.

Ironically, I consider this way of seeing the world to be quite racist, simply because race is the central theme when culture, history, and language is what truly defines a person’s identity and outlook. Not to mention that the US has a very unique definition of what each race is and who is suppose to belong in each category. Seeing the world through a racial filter is, in essence, racist.

Add to that the entrenched denial of the mixed race that is so prevalent in the US, where even if most people know of his/her mixed origin, if one of those mixtures is black, that person will be seen as black. That certainly doesn’t help when it comes to a people whose identity has more to do with cultural ties than anything else.

This misunderstanding between the African Americans and the Dominicans is probably based on the long entrenched rejection African Americans received by their fellow Americans. It probably has lead them to look for other places where they can feel accepted. Since their identity is heavily based on race as understood in the USA, they look for that as the qualifier and then find it hard to accept that other people value culture, history, language more than appearances. Quite frankly, from the cultural standpoint, there's not much in common between Dominicans and African Americans.

This is still part of the stepping out of the American box I was mentioning earlier in the discussion. Some DR1ers have a hard time doing that.

A few examples that points to a much greater issue the AA's face with people from other places. I guess sooner or later the same situation Dominicans face tends to arise, except maybe the AA's thinking of racism every time they are rejected. In other instances, they probably see it as simply a cultural issue.

I think the mis-perceived racism arises too often in the AA minds when it comes to Dominicans because of all the bs anti-Dominican propaganda that has been created in recent decades, and in some way, much of this propaganda was created taking the Haitian problem as its base.

Cape Verdean identity in a land of Black and White

Jamaicans Attitude to Afro-Americans (Jamaica)

Miami's New Ethnic Conflict: Haitians vs. American Blacks - New York Times

African vs. African-American

The rift between African Americans and Africans

Look!!! let me give you a little insight on AA, WE do not CARE about Dominicans. Why would we care that Dominicans do not accept us? Now Dominicans could push Haitians around and look down on Haitians, but DON'T ever think that AA feel SLIGHTED because Dominicans don't see eye to eye with AA.

Also AA have no beef with Haitians, Jamaicans or people from the Congo. We are not Dominicans we do not think, dress, eat, dance, talk, drive like Dominicans.

My aunt in PR was right I am now starting to see it little by little, Dominicans are really STUCK on themselves and for the life of me I don't know why.

Also PLEASE remember this the next time you bring of AA. If it was not for AAs and Puerto Ricans FIGHTING and DYING for civil rights in the USA, Dominicans NEVER would have a strong presence like the enjoy now in the USA.

 

[Chip]

My aunt in PR was right I am now starting to see it little by little, Dominicans are really STUCK on themselves and for the life of me I don't know why.

Go to the Univision DR forums and see what PR write about Dominicans. It makes DR's treatment of Haitians nowadays seem positive to say the least. In other words there is a great deal of bias in PR against Dominicans and they are blamed for a lot of what is wrong with PR.

 

[JMB773]

I will say this a mean NO DISRESPECT what so ever. Without African Americans and Puerto Ricans,the Dominican Republic do not exist. Dominicans like to look down on Haitians so often the DR would have joined Haiti in a FAIL STATE, if AA's and Puerto Ricans never walked the face of the earth. Do you think Dominicans are STRONG enough to deal with "white america" they cannot even CHECK!! their own government. So many people benefited from AA's going through HELL, while most waited until the coast was clear.(Dominicans)

BTW two names I will state Roberto Clemente and Jackie Robinson. Without these guys NO Sammy Sosa, David Ortiz, Albert Pujols NADIE!!!

 

[DRob]

I will say this a mean NO DISRESPECT what so ever. Without African Americans and Puerto Ricans,the Dominican Republic do not exist. Dominicans like to look down on Haitians so often the DR would have joined Haiti in a FAIL STATE, if AA's and Puerto Ricans never walked the face of the earth. Do you think Dominicans are STRONG enough to deal with "white america" they cannot even CHECK!! their own government. So many people benefited from AA's going through HELL, while most waited until the coast was clear.(Dominicans)

BTW two names I will state Roberto Clemente and Jackie Robinson. Without these guys NO Sammy Sosa, David Ortiz, Albert Pujols NADIE!!!

I assume you're talking about the history of slavery, Jim Crow and the subsequent civil rights movement and legislation. The impact of the efforts of my forebears cannot be overstated, in any context.

That said, I'm not really certain I understand your point here. I love visiting the DR, and have good friends and experiences there. That said, I don't really know what I, in my African American-ness, actively do to keep the DR from being a failed state, other than visit, be respectful, spend money, and encourage others to do the same. In the end, that's about the best thing you can do for a tourist-based economy.

Chip, are you awake? are you aware of the antipathy Domiinicans bear toward African Americans? are you aware of the numerous blogs by AA visitors to this country, who opine that they would never return, because of the way in which they were treated? you are , apparently , a white man, so those matters do not have any effect upon you, and you can discuss them as abstractions. when my white friends and i go out to dinner together, at somewhere such as the Vesuvio,and the waiter REFLEXIVELY attempts to hand the bill to one of the whites, but never to me, that tells me how people perceive color in this land.

I'm a light skinned black guy who happens to hang with friends who run the gambit from light to sepia in terms of skin tone, and eurocentric to afrocentric in terms of features. Sometimes we've traveled together to various parts of the world, including DR. We're all post-grad guys who tend not to dress like we're in a rap video when on vacation. Some have gone only once for a short weekend, others have spent months at a time in the country. And frankly, none of us have ever had any experiences remotely close to the one you're describing.

Maybe we've spent the past decade just being really lucky, but I've never had a problem getting admitted to the restaurants, clubs, and other spots I've wanted. And we've been enjoying Vesuvio for many years. When we're in a group, usually someone asks for the check, or we agree to separate checks when ordering the meal. (Some guys have been really cheap in the past, and had to be corrected. Suffice to say, they don't really get invited on trips anymore.)

Don't get me wrong, this is not an effort to invalidate your point, and I've no doubt your experience was as described. My only point is, I think, as with many things in life, it's a question of YMMV. Some bouncers can be obnoxious jerks, it happens. But I don't think there's some pervasive conspiracy to discriminate against decent African Americans - or others in general - in the DR.

 

[NALs]

JMB,

This isn’t about the US, but rather the DR.

What is clearly evident on DR1 are two things regarding this topic:

1. AA’s have a very strong interest in this topic.
2. Haitians and pro-Haitians also show strong interests.

Many in both groups have a tendency of wanting to present the DR as something it definitely is not and I assume its due to the same reason or something very close to that. Re-read this thread and notice which side of the argument certain people tend to stick to.

The other issue is that Dominican society has not much to thank the African American community since AA’s have had a negligible impact at any point in Dominican history, in the shaping of Dominican society and identity. We don't have a shared history, music, food, language, or even outlook. And the very few AA's influence that is present has been of very recent arrival into the country and most of it arrived as proxy through the Dominican-American community, and in a diluted form.

We do have much to be thankful towards Puerto Ricans since Dominican history is heavily influenced by Dominicans of full or partial Puerto Rican descent, many of whom are or have been some of the most talented people this country has known. We also share the same language, the same music, a history that is heavily intertwined, and even a very similar outlook on life.

And despite everything, we even have more to thank and more influence from Haitians than African Americans.

The DR was created, defended, and remained in existence for many years before African Americans knew we even existed. On the other hand, Haitians and Puerto Ricans did know of our existence since the inception of each of those societies in the colonial era.

As for the Dominican community in the US, that’s not the issue here.

There is a need in this thread to understand where African Americans are coming from in order to understand why so many of them completely don’t get and are quick to disregard the very basic things that leads to a full and correct understanding of Dominican identity and the Dominican-Haitian relationship.

If anything, the Haitians have a better understanding and this is why they often become hypocrites when they embark on criticizing the DR, but AA’s are simply lost in all of this. Most simply don’t get it even at the most basic level and the few that do, its after spending a lot of effort in getting rid of the American point of view of things.

Like I said in the beginning of this post, this isn’t about the US. Don't continue to divert this conversation along that tangent.

 

[the gorgon]

says NALS


The other issue is that Dominican society has not much to thank the African American community since AA’s have had a negligible impact at any point in Dominican history, in the shaping of Dominican society and identity.

really, NALS? If AAs had not waged the civil rights battles of the 50s and 60s, all your countrymen up in Washington Heights would be back in Moca, and El Limon. you believe that they would be welcome in the USA, with open arms, because they told the US immigration department that they were Indio, and not black? if people like Jackie Robinson had not broken the color bar in baseball, Sammy Sosa would have played club ball for a few pesos per game in San Francisco de Macoris. get real!

 

[Naked_Snake]

says NALS


The other issue is that Dominican society has not much to thank the African American community since AA’s have had a negligible impact at any point in Dominican history, in the shaping of Dominican society and identity.

really, NALS? If AAs had not waged the civil rights battles of the 50s and 60s, all your countrymen up in Washington Heights would be back in Moca, and El Limon. you believe that they would be welcome in the USA, with open arms, because they told the US immigration department that they were Indio, and not black? if people like Jackie Robinson had not broken the color bar in baseball, Sammy Sosa would have played club ball for a few pesos per game in San Francisco de Macoris. get real!

NAL's is referring to Dominican history on Hispaniola/Quisqueya, not the USA.

 

[the gorgon]

NAL's is referring to Dominican history on Hispaniola/Quisqueya, not the USA.

you cannot seperate the two issues

 

[Naked_Snake]

you cannot seperate the two issues

He perfectly can, if he refers to Dominican history prior to the mid-XXth century, or more specifically, from the time that goes from the colonization era up to the second American invasion (1965). You do really know that before that year the Dominican presence in the US was close to none now, do you? There's no way African Americans could have played a role in the formation of the Dominican cultural identity before that point in time, which is his whole point. Now with Puerto Ricans it's different, specially since they have had a longer time in US soil, but it seems African American influence in them is limited to NuYoricans, cuz' the ones on the island have more of a Latin American mindset.

 

[the gorgon]

He perfectly can, if he refers to Dominican history prior to the mid-XXth century, or more specifically, from the time that goes from the colonization era up to the second American invasion (1965). You do really know that before that year the Dominican presence in the US was close to none now, do you? There's no way African Americans could have played a role in the formation of the Dominican cultural identity before that point in time, which is his whole point. Now with Puerto Ricans it's different, specially since they have had a longer time in US soil, but it seems African American influence in them is limited to NuYoricans, cuz' the ones on the island have more of a Latin American mindset.

this is what he says

The other issue is that Dominican society has not much to thank the African American community since AA?s have had a negligible impact at any point in Dominican history, in the shaping of Dominican society and identity.

where do you see a dateline in that narrative? what does the term "at any point in Dominican history mean to you? does it include recent history, like last year, perhaps, or does it have a cutoff date? in the event that it does, what is such a date? secondly, by what travesty of reason do you establish said date? since you seem to have assumed the mantle of spokesman for NALS, then maybe you are in a position to supply the responses to my questions.

 

[Naked_Snake]

this is what he says

The other issue is that Dominican society has not much to thank the African American community since AA’s have had a negligible impact at any point in Dominican history, in the shaping of Dominican society and identity.

where do you see a dateline in that narrative? what does the term "at any point in Dominican history mean to you? does it include recent history, like last year, perhaps, or does it have a cutoff date?

Because for some people the narrative of Dominican history ends with the 1965 civil war. Do you see African Americans exerting some influence in Dominican identity before then, sir? And no, the Afram inmigrants to Samana don't count, since they lived mostly isolated, until being mostly Hispanified during Trujillo's era.

in the event that it does, what is such a date? secondly, by what travesty of reason do you establish said date? since you seem to have assumed the mantle of spokesman for NALS, then maybe you are in a position to supply the responses to my questions.

Because from that date onwards, sir, is when American cultural influence will be felt on this country. While some African American cultural trends have found their niche here (like using Afro hairstyles and the like), the same can't be said about their racial/identity views. You don't see people preaching the (very idiotic) one drop rule here now, do you?

 

[Major448]

Some History of the Dominican Republic and Haiti .....


Title: Santo Domingo A Country with a Future
Author: Otto Schoenrich
Published: 1918

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/9813/pg9813.html

 

[the gorgon]

says snake

Because for some people the narrative of Dominican history ends with the 1965 civil war. Do you see African Americans exerting some influence in Dominican identity before then, sir?

i am not Francis Fukuyama. i do not believe in nonsensical concepts such as the end of history. history is anything in the past. it is just broken up into compartments. so, there is ancient history, medieval history, and modern history. anything in the past can be categorized as history. a lot of the cultural influences, and positive events which impact upon the lives of Dominicans happened post 1965, with heavy immigration to the USA. just the idea that baseball players from the DR can now make untold riches in the USA is a cultural determinant in the lives of poor rural and inner city youth. i will not go into the sociology of such an issue, but i do not think i need to explain it to you.

 

[Naked_Snake]

says snake

Because for some people the narrative of Dominican history ends with the 1965 civil war. Do you see African Americans exerting some influence in Dominican identity before then, sir?

i am not Francis Fukuyama. i do not believe in nonsensical concepts such as the end of history. history is anything in the past. it is just broken up into compartments. so, there is ancient history, medieval history, and modern history. anything in the past can be categorized as history. a lot of the cultural influences, and positive events which impact upon the lives of Dominicans happened post 1965, with heavy immigration to the USA. just the idea that baseball players from the DR can now make untold riches in the USA is a cultural determinant in the lives of poor rural and inner city youth. i will not go into the sociology of such an issue, but i do not think i need to explain it to you.

Nevertheless, my question to you still stands, do you see people here preaching the so called "one drop rule"? The day this happens, then sir, that will be the day in which I will recognize Aframs exerting influence in the IDENTITY of the people living on this part of the island. Fashion trends and other fads are just as ephemeral as sand castles, and should be treated as such accordingly.

 

[Major448]

Just FYI ... the "one drop rule" was NOT created by Black Americans.

One-drop rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In the United States, the concept of the one-drop rule has been chiefly applied by European Americans to those of sub-Saharan black African ancestry in the aftermath of slavery, as they were trying to impose white supremacy. The poet Langston Hughes wrote in his 1940 memoir:

You see, unfortunately, I am not black. There are lots of different kinds of blood in our family. But here in the United States, the word 'Negro' is used to mean anyone who has any Negro blood at all in his veins. In Africa, the word is more pure. It means all Negro, therefore black. I am brown"