Dominican "intolerance" issues??

SH6811

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Oct 24, 2005
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Hi AZB,

Yes you're correct, I'm not looking for a "solution"...it is not necessary. I simply wanted some information, opinions, and input from others to help me better understand something that I had been thinking about and to help clear up some confusion I was having (see original post). I require answers and knowledge, that's all.

I have no desire to "change the thinking of the whole island so I can stay the same"--why? I can and will stay the same always, whatever country I'm in. In addition I made no real complaints, only observations...I have no complaints at all with the DR or its people.

hay no problema...I've never had a real problem in the DR and I doubt I ever will.
 

yasmin

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Jun 16, 2005
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I would wear a shirt with a big "NO HAY PROBLEMA !!" on it.
Maybe they'll stop asking...
 

sweetdbt

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Sep 17, 2004
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SH6811 said:
I can and will stay the same always, whatever country I'm in.


It must be tough being so inflexible. I don't buy the part about "no problema" for a minute. If so, why did you post? You obviously aren't happy with this situation, and you are the only one who can change that. I'm not accusing you of being intolerent, but rather of merely tolerating your situation, rather than EMBRACING it, and to do that you will need to adapt, or your life will be "tolerable" at best!
 

macocael

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Aug 3, 2004
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Well SH, though I am not so sure that the representative American would necessarily brush off the odd behavior in the manner you suggest, because I have witnessed a lot of intolerance in the States, I will agree with you that Americans generally adopt a "live and let live" attitude toward things, though I also think that when their personal space is violated they are likely to lose that attitude pretty quickly. One isolated instance, OK, they may brush it off, but if it happens repeatedly in their midst, then I think not. Plenty of examples of this: while both countries have their specific form of racism,for example, the north American version is segregationist in its structure. Americans dont mind the ways of other people so long as those other people stay on their side of the lines that are drawn in subtle ways.

Secondly, I have to remind you that a comparison between the two countries is likely to be a bit faulty, given the fact that the DR has been isolated for almost its entire history, and this isolation has bred a lack of cosmopolitanism and understanding of other cultures. Very shortly after being founded, the colony fell into desuetude due to the fact that the Spanish Empire had exhausted the resources here (primarily Gold, sugar was not such a big thing yet), and was looking for bigger conquests, it developed Cuba and forgot about DR, partly because of piracy, and last but not least the forced resettlement of the colonists around POP and Monte Cristi, in punishment for refusing to stop trading with the pirates, which really wrecked the economy. The Devastaciones, as the resettlement was called, had a bad effect all round. afterwards the colony became a real backwater, and during modern times, of course, it was in the grips of the caudillos, the greatest of which, Trujillo, pretty much clamped down on outside influences. Only in the last three decades has the island really been openly exchanging ideas, commerce, and people with the outside world in a significant way and the consequent tolerance and openmindedness you would expect to see is only very slowly beginning to take root. part of this positive change, btw, comes from the Dominican Yorks, who often are the victims of bad press but who infact contribute a lot of good to the island, and not just in the form of remesas.

On the other hand, this historical isolation is also what makes this island rather special and unique, and if you dont believe me just visit Cuba and Puerto Rico, which form two ends of a spectrum in which one finds what might have happened to DR had it followed a different path in History. Our Vod?, for example, is not yet a tourist attraction, as it is in Cuba -- santer?a and all that Afro-cuban jazz is marketed to foreigners, but here it is more underground and as such quite interesting and untarnished. This is but one example, albeit a somewhat dramatic one, of what I am talking about, but there are many others. Course, I think that along with the openness to outside influences there will also come the inevitable"Americanization" of the culture -- it is already happening and the changes are coming fast and furious. So I rather prefer to see some resistance on the part of Dominicans. I hope they dont lose their character in the years to come, even if it discomfits the expats among them!

drbill -- glad you enjoyed my post! What in particular rang true there? Cuentame!
 

SH6811

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Oct 24, 2005
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Hi,

Inflexible? Perhaps. However there's nothing tough about it, it's completely normal and natural for me (and others).

As I stated in a recent post, there really is no problem, I posted because I wanted information as to better understand something about a particular culture I was confused about. That is all. It's not good, It's not bad...it's just different. No biggie...I find it interesting to learn new things about different cultures--especially when it is something for which I didn't expect to be the case.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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macocael said:
It takes time to learn how to negotiate between the dictates of your personality and the culture that formed you on the one hand, and the dictates of the culture or society you now find yourself in on the other -- here, you are right, as many have just observed, a loner, a quiet or reserved person who likes his "personal space," is considered an oddity and frankly most Dominicans -- except for your friends who know you and through that friendship come to understand you -- will not know how to deal with that. Here, personal space hardly exists. For one thing,, there is traditional Latin cari?o -- people here are always touching, caressing, hugging, even when they dont know each other well. That is one reason the gripe spreads so quickly! For another, except for the upper classes, the people live "muy apretado" -- close together, not to say on top of one another, so they learn to expect that one is hardly ever alone. And sociality is one of the highest values here: it has its good side. You could be lost up in the loma somewhere, knock on some door, and immediately be accepted into the household, fed and cared for. Hospitality is highly valued here. Also, people go out of their way to avoid confrontation, so amiability is also highly prized. If you are not amiable -- physically expressive, smiling, quick with a joke or a friendly line, people will think you odd or even offensive,because these are the reigning social values here. You experience no problem in the States because the reigning values there revolve around respecting personal space, being more withdrawn, less sociable in a demonstrative way, etc. Believe me, the average American on his home turf is probably not going to like when the Dominican he is talking to suddenly starts caressing his leg while they converse, or holding his hand -- The Americans would be offended and would consider the Dominican behavior odd -- but down here that happens without any connotation of buggery. The difference can be disconcerting for a gringo, it certainly was for me, initially, but I got used to it, and actually I prefer what we have here, though I have to find other ways to satisfy my need for solitude from time to time. YOu cannot really escape yourself, so you need to find ways to compromise between all these demands.

I remember two incidents that impressed me in relation to this: the first was when I was down and out with a bad case of gripe, and everyone kept coming to the house to socialize with me as though all were normal, entering the bedroom, sitting on the bed with me, yakking away. I was really put out, because when I am sick like that I just want to crawl away into some hole. But I got used to it and it doesnt bother me now.

Second odd moment for me was attending the funeral of a newborn baby, the mother hysterically crying in the bedroom, and everyone filing through the bedroom to greet and console her! I mean everyone. I just felt odd that I should disturb her private grief, but in fact it wasnt a disturbance at all and was considered by everyone there a salutary thing. different strokes. And each works in its own way.
Excellent post!

-NALs
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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SH6811 said:
Hi,

Inflexible? Perhaps. However there's nothing tough about it, it's completely normal and natural for me (and others).

As I stated in a recent post, there really is no problem, I posted because I wanted information as to better understand something about a particular culture I was confused about. That is all. It's not good, It's not bad...it's just different. No biggie...I find it interesting to learn new things about different cultures--especially when it is something for which I didn't expect to be the case.
SH,

Just for the record, these actions are not Dominican exclusive nor exclusive of Latin America. In Spain and Italy, the same thing happens. Very touchy, caring, person to person contact while conversing, etc.

For example, another issue that I find many Americans feel a little "gittery" about is the presence of police with rifles. The moment you step off the airplane and go into the Fiumicino International Airport in Rome, you will see the same sight, police with rifles. This was the case there, before the 9-11 ordeal.

It must be something about the Latin/Mediterranean/Catholic cultural mindset that makes for shocking experiences from the part of people who hail from the Anglo Saxon inspired world.

At least you are inclined to learn about the adoptive culture you have chosen to be a part of, and quite frankly, becoming more open will become a necessity from your part. The culture will not bend to fit anyone's needs, but everyone will have to bend to fit into the culture.

In my opinion, this will be to your benefit, but perhaps it has to do more with my Latin style than anything else, although I can't stand the general distance and cold relations between strangers in the US appears to be. You can walk by 10 people and if you give them a smile, they give you that weird look. It's as if you do not exist or smiling is a crime or something. Occasionally some friendly person returns your smile, but then you realize they are of Italian decent or Greek or something.

It's interesting none the less, how different people feel comfortable in different situations and vice versa.

-NALs
 

Stodgord

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Nov 19, 2004
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SH6811,

I am a Dominican male and consider myself a very individualistic person. I can relate to your frustation, especially when one is minding their own business and someone comes along asking "que te pasa, estas aburrido, no te gusta el ambiente" I even get it from my wife all the times and I have to remind her that just because someone is sitting by themselves quietly does not mean that person has a problem. I dread also, the repetitive and constant asking "how is such and such, when did you arrive, when are you leaving, is it true that this and that" after they have heard the response many times from you or other people before.

One thing I tell you, Dominicans like to know other people's business, especially what you do and how much you make. Many times I feel so awkward when they come out, point blank, and ask me how much I make in front of other poeple. I would reply "esas son cosas personales que no se dicen" then the person feels awkward and I am labeled "el aburrido or el sangru"
 

drbill

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Dec 3, 2005
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different strokes

macocael, I just appreciated the neutral tone used in your observations. Some of these social traditions are "different" enough to provoke resentment, as in
SH's case, or represent gentle-yet-constant reminders that we're not at home.

The warmth and closeness, the barenaked emotionality I experience here is no less "correct" or "valid" than the organized, calculated existence at the other end of the spectrum and at least I'm free to organize my life as I see fit, including the time-outs I need now and then... .

I'm happy somewhere in the middle- neither the social trainwreck of the reguero total, nor the teutonic autoproctoscopy on the other side of the coin.:glasses:

drbill
 

Me_again

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Nov 21, 2004
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Every time I go to the DR it takes me a day or two to get back in the habit of: "Buenas tardes -- como esta . . ." before ordering a beer or asking for a menu. I'm sure that until it does become automatic I'm seen as being rude and abrupt. Yet another example of the differences between North America and Latin America. My wife -- being more sensitive -- automatically does this at our first stop off of the plane. But she drops it (more or less) when we return to North America.

My take on this post (TIC?) is that SH6811 is an anthropology or sociology student looking for material for an end of term paper in Latin American studies. If he isn't -- OK. But there's some very good material here for just such a paper.