Dominican Students at Harvard hoist Reformista Flag and Invoke powers of Balaguer

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
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IMF and WB

I disagree the IMF and WB are only vehicles that respond to requests from governments. If the governments do not come begging and begging they would see no need to respond. That is a fact. It is not like the WB and IMF go recruiting to poor countries to lend people money. This is not how they operate.


Tom F. said:
I agree 100% and was writing that in sarcisim. I teach that no country in the world is a democracy, but we would like to see democratic ideals developed as much as possible. When I look at Latin America, Venezuela and Brazil unfortunately must watch out with the Republicans in office in the US. The DR will kiss up enough to keep their nose above water and may someday have to be bailed out like other have had to be. I am with the Profesor on earlier posts (other threads) that the IMF and World Bank are the main culprits. However you define the rise in globalism, it will maintain the status quo where the working class earning capacity will decline. Governments will be even less responsive to the needs of the majority and cater to those at the top. Because of the level of corruption in the DR, those 20 families Roberto Cassa teaches about, will still determine how wealth is distributed in the Dominican economy, not an elected populist government. I will continue to ponder this for years to come. I appreciate what everyone has put into this thread. It is one of the few really educational threads for me.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Through trial and error I have learned that it's hard to communicate via technology rather than being face to face. It's easy to type, but people need facial expressions, body language, etc. to fully understand what the other person is trying to say. Through my experiences primarily in DR1, I've noticed that if I have an opinion about something and I don't fully type in my opinion and why I think that way, I will be bombarded with other folks that either contradict my point of view or simply misunderstood it. Thus, I tend to type in long posts.
 

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
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We agree on a few things

On Leonel..and political institutional arrangements we have are on the same wavelength. However, capitalism as practiced in Russia is distorted by the level of corruption experienced. Communism in it's purest form is a great idea in practice it sucks. China (yes I have been there) is an example of this. Now I seriously question whether what is being praticed there is even communism at all. I the economic gap was obvious to me.

On Dominican-Am's and education. Well I think that the fact that poor Dominicans in the US can attend ivy league schools, become Rhode Scholars, go to Oxford on scholarships and become great minds is a real and tangible reality to me and the Dominican-Americans around me. This is not possible in DR unless you were some rich person's kid. Even here in the states we have problems making these possibilities really tangible to the community, which is very poor comparatively to other groups within the states. In DR like in the US, these kids drop out and don't study because they do not see hope and they don't see a future. They live only on immediate gratification and a hope for a slim opportunity (e.g. playing b-ball). Being in DR is more about connections than the merits of your qualifications. At least in the states you have a greater chance for a break to show your skill set, regardless of who you do or do not know.

Yes I agree on us needing to change the welfare mentality. No arguments from me. We are working to improve on that slowly and by increasing self-pride and love of our blackness. A lot of things are found in self-hatred.
The empirical data is evidence when you begin to work and earn a livable wage self-perception changes. However, given the current state of globablization the US has a competitive advantage in areas of innovation.
Thus, we need to ensure that future generation of Dominicans in the US are well educated since more menial jobs and simple white collar jobs are going abroad.

Best.

Nal0whs said:
Now, my dominican political view. I think Leonel is going to win the next elections and I am pro-Leonel 100%. I like his way of thinking, very industrial oriented and forward looking. Oh sure, there are going to be some folks that will be within his party and are going to be much more corrupt than the devil himself, but that is when you know that we got a real democracy. Only in democracies do MULTIPLE people have a chance of being corrupt in government rather than ONE person like in Totalitarian or Dictatorial regimes.

I don't agree 100% with one of the posters when he/she posted dominican-americans are becoming the professional minds that the DR did not allow them to be. Though I get your point, I don't agree with the wordings. It is justifiable to say that many kids in the DR have the opportunity to get a free education all the way through college. Of course, not all of the kids due to economic constraints, but many. Unfortunately, way too many drop out before they even finish high school. So was it the DR that did not allow them to be the professionals of the future or was it something else? Maybe the thought of getting in a yola or buying a visa and going to "rich" New York sounds more promising that studying studying and more studying. Or maybe, hoping to be spotted by baseball scouts is more appealing. Though I clearly understand your statement and what you ment, I don't think the DR prevents anyone from acheiving success. Sure, there are economic problems that could cause inequalities in distribution of free education across the country, but those that are lucky enough to get free education are not making the most of it. That is where it all lies.

I do think that Dominican-Americans are going to be a big influence in Dominican politics.The only problem that I see with this phenomenon is that way too many Dominican-Americans will influence the DR with a strong American way of doing things. Such push could eventually lead the DR to give up being a free independent nation and become a state of the U.S. Such action would be an insult to all the men and women that shed blood so that dominicans could have somewhere in the planet to always call home. The dominican elites would certainly hate anything of that nature because it will take away much of their powers. It's something akin to asking the U.S. to withdraw all of their military bases that are in non-American owned lands. It would be detrimental to the power of the U.S. But I think that Dominican-Americans should try to influence the country in many ways. Maybe, take away the "welfare mentality" of the everyday people just waiting for the government to do something for them and instead give people the motivation to actually go out there and try to make it, expecting nothing from nobody but themselves. For dominicans to stop dreaming about New York or Puerto Rico and begin acting on their lives in the country that was kind enough to allow them to live freely.
 

NALs

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deelt, I can see your point in the first paragraph of your reply (On Leonel, etc.)

I totally agree with you on the second one (Dominican-Americans,etc.). But it can't be denied that a Dominican will have a much better chance with an education that without it. Nepotism will always prevail in most cases, but when ever that slight chance appears, when the big guys want qualified folks in a certain position, it's better to be prepared for it. But other than that, you hit the nail.

And on your third paragraph, I agree 100%. Except maybe the love of blackness. Don't get me wrong, I know what you are trying to say and I agree with you, but I think that Dominicans already love their blackness. The problem is that they called Indio. Maybe a change in name, but the love is there. In fact, it should not even matter what race dominican give preference to as long that they consider themselves Dominican first, than everything else second!

This is for the general people out there. This thread has to be one of the most professional ones on this web site. I congratulate whom ever started this one. I've been trying to have a professional discussion on many subjects on this web site and almost always it has be "sabotaged" by bad mouth folks that only want to make other people feel either sad or angry and before you knew, bam, it was closed. Congratulation in deed!!
 

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
2
0
On blackness/indio

For the thread you can thank Amory, the rich DR kid from Harvard, who should have known better. ;-)

The DR perception of being indio is very anti-haitian. In the long run I think it is an incorrect self-perception we have. We could be darker than some Haitians or Af-Am but still we call ourselves indio. The US census clearly shows a gap between perception and reality. We do not recogize it in the same terms as Americans. It's not that we need to be defined in Am. terms, it's just that when Dominicans arrive in the US they are defined in those terms whether they like it or not and thus, they need to recognize that they are people of color, in order to build strong, credible, and lasting political coalitions.

On a different note, the history of the country lends itself to the promiscuity that is now evident through vis a vis the high AIDS rates. Both sexes use sex as a tool. Women are often treated more like sex objects and must resort to using their sexuality to gain affirmation and sustenance. Men also use sex with different purposes, but at the end they lack manhood since they try to find it in so many different women. Again it all comes down to self-respect and self-love that many often lack.

PEACE

Nal0whs said:
deelt, I can see your point in the first paragraph of your reply (On Leonel, etc.)

I totally agree with you on the second one (Dominican-Americans,etc.). But it can't be denied that a Dominican will have a much better chance with an education that without it. Nepotism will always prevail in most cases, but when ever that slight chance appears, when the big guys want qualified folks in a certain position, it's better to be prepared for it. But other than that, you hit the nail.

And on your third paragraph, I agree 100%. Except maybe the love of blackness. Don't get me wrong, I know what you are trying to say and I agree with you, but I think that Dominicans already love their blackness. The problem is that they called Indio. Maybe a change in name, but the love is there. In fact, it should not even matter what race dominican give preference to as long that they consider themselves Dominican first, than everything else second!

This is for the general people out there. This thread has to be one of the most professional ones on this web site. I congratulate whom ever started this one. I've been trying to have a professional discussion on many subjects on this web site and almost always it has be "sabotaged" by bad mouth folks that only want to make other people feel either sad or angry and before you knew, bam, it was closed. Congratulation in deed!!
 
Sep 20, 2003
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i read in a tourist guide book from england that DNA tests proved that 50% of puerto ricans have tanio DNA and 15% of dominicans have tanio DNA in their system.

so the domincan population is not just african and spanish/european mixes.
 

Jon S.

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Jan 25, 2003
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joel pacheco said:
i read in a tourist guide book from england that DNA tests proved that 50% of puerto ricans have tanio DNA and 15% of dominicans have tanio DNA in their system.

so the domincan population is not just african and spanish/european mixes.

Dude, read all the English tourists guides that you want, but verify who are their sources, they should be in the book.......the DR population has mixed so much over the centuries that you can't tell who has what background........besides, and it's been proven (even though some will disagree) that there are more differences between the members of one individual race than there are between different races. Anyways, that doesn't relate to the thread :confused: :rolleyes: :ermm:
 
Sep 20, 2003
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the thread started to discuss embracing blackness, etc. yes, it was off thread, but others mentioned it first. someone else posted that there was almost no tanio heritage in modern domincans, i happen to read something that disputed that. i suppose i should not have added that bit of info to this thread. have it your way, dude.
 

samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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...and why not open a thread on Taino heritage in the DR?
Moderator.....hello.......is there anybody out there?
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Well, for the sake of discussion I must say...

that it's hard to categorize Dominicans as this or that. The people that you physically see walking up and down dominican streets, may not be who you think they are. It's like that saying "Never judge a book by it's cover" well, never judge a dominican by it's appearance. From the whitest to the darkest and everything in between, you'll find more genetic mixture than probably anywhere else in the world. Think about it.

It's a fact that Spaniards, Italians, Germans, French, and some British migrated to the island at some point of it's lengthy history. Africans from Congo, Nigeria, Angola, Ivory Coast and maybe even benin were imported into Santo Domingo. The Africans were imported for export. Santo Domingo was a transhipment point for the human cargo which was bought in Africa and resold in Santo Domingo mostly to the Americans, but also to the French on the other side of the island. Beyond that, there have also been migrants in significant numbers from Syria and Lebanon. Chinese made their way here. Japanese came under Trujillo. Also serphardic Jews came in the 1700s and then more jews in the 1940s.

There were many native american (Taino) indian settlements that were probably not discovered by the Spaniards and with time began to mingle with one another. I once read in a book (can't remember the title) that there was a large Taino village in between La Isabela and modern day Luperon that was not discovered by the Spaniards up until 200 years after they had landed on the island. Imagine how many probably existed up in the rugged mountainous areas that were avoided by the Europeans because they were much more busy with their tropical agriculture economics in the lowlands. With time, all of these people mixed in and before you know it, modern dominicans came to existance with their beautiful skin color, varied facial features, and everything else that makes Dominicans among the best people in the world.


Even today, you might still see some families that have strong physical appearances to the original migrants before mixing. In Las Salinas, there is a family that I saw of white dominicans with natural blonde hair. They are poor, but if you were to see them with nice clothes you might confuse them with tourists! In the San Francisco de Macoris area there is a village that people claim that is inhabited by chinese. However, look at these suppose "chinese" and compare and they will seem more native american than chinese. In the Samana peninsula there are still many blacks that speak English as their first Language, and these are dominicans too! Some jews are still lurking around in the Sosua area. Some people of Azua and Bani are obviously decendants of the Canary Islanders that settled there. Constanza still has it's Japanese folks walking around. In the Cibao you still hear last names that are very Spanish in origin such as Olivares, Jimenez, Colon, Lantigua, etc. Names that evoke a sense of Spanish power (at least in my mind it does).

You see, Dominicans are a mix of everything. Many dominicans have probably traces of every race that exist on the planet, who knows. But the things that unite all of these people is their belief in one sovereign nation and it's culture. This nation is the Dominican Republic and this culture is the Dominicanidad.
 

daddy1

New member
Feb 27, 2004
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Gilbert, seems to me the one that belongs in Harvard and not that racist balaquerista! Gilbert has definately nipped it in the bud, the only good government for the Dominican Republic is a new outside influencial government such as yourself's to rule and shape the future all of the parties have abused funds and have almost starved there people it's time for a new independent westernized party this is what needs to happen!
 

mami

New member
Mar 16, 2004
291
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What wonderful kind words

Nal0whs said:
that it's hard to categorize Dominicans as this or that. The people that you physically see walking up and down dominican streets, may not be who you think they are. It's like that saying "Never judge a book by it's cover" well, never judge a dominican by it's appearance. From the whitest to the darkest and everything in between, you'll find more genetic mixture than probably anywhere else in the world. Think about it.

It's a fact that Spaniards, Italians, Germans, French, and some British migrated to the island at some point of it's lengthy history. Africans from Congo, Nigeria, Angola, Ivory Coast and maybe even benin were imported into Santo Domingo. The Africans were imported for export. Santo Domingo was a transhipment point for the human cargo which was bought in Africa and resold in Santo Domingo mostly to the Americans, but also to the French on the other side of the island. Beyond that, there have also been migrants in significant numbers from Syria and Lebanon. Chinese made their way here. Japanese came under Trujillo. Also serphardic Jews came in the 1700s and then more jews in the 1940s.

There were many native american (Taino) indian settlements that were probably not discovered by the Spaniards and with time began to mingle with one another. I once read in a book (can't remember the title) that there was a large Taino village in between La Isabela and modern day Luperon that was not discovered by the Spaniards up until 200 years after they had landed on the island. Imagine how many probably existed up in the rugged mountainous areas that were avoided by the Europeans because they were much more busy with their tropical agriculture economics in the lowlands. With time, all of these people mixed in and before you know it, modern dominicans came to existance with their beautiful skin color, varied facial features, and everything else that makes Dominicans among the best people in the world.


Even today, you might still see some families that have strong physical appearances to the original migrants before mixing. In Las Salinas, there is a family that I saw of white dominicans with natural blonde hair. They are poor, but if you were to see them with nice clothes you might confuse them with tourists! In the San Francisco de Macoris area there is a village that people claim that is inhabited by chinese. However, look at these suppose "chinese" and compare and they will seem more native american than chinese. In the Samana peninsula there are still many blacks that speak English as their first Language, and these are dominicans too! Some jews are still lurking around in the Sosua area. Some people of Azua and Bani are obviously decendants of the Canary Islanders that settled there. Constanza still has it's Japanese folks walking around. In the Cibao you still hear last names that are very Spanish in origin such as Olivares, Jimenez, Colon, Lantigua, etc. Names that evoke a sense of Spanish power (at least in my mind it does).

You see, Dominicans are a mix of everything. Many dominicans have probably traces of every race that exist on the planet, who knows. But the things that unite all of these people is their belief in one sovereign nation and it's culture. This nation is the Dominican Republic and this culture is the Dominicanidad.

Dominicans and PUerto Ricans are the proudest people I've ever met and with the most diverse backgrounds.

Your thoughts about culture are beautiful!
 
Mami and Narcosis you have me rolling over in my chair laughing.

hahahahahhha

Narcosis - I see this thread has been officially hi-jacked.

Mami - what is that supposed to mean?

Narcosis - It means you are off topic

Mami - i was just responding the guy that had something positive to say.


hahahahahahaha
 

mami

New member
Mar 16, 2004
291
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a ha ha

finally a light hearted person in the forum! thank you sancocho
 

Narcosis

New member
Dec 18, 2003
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Gilbert Arenas

Ok Fine now that we are off-topic:

Gilbert are you an NBA fan and that is your handle or are you the Wizard ex Arizona Wildcat?

If you are the latter you need to calm your temper on the court! hahahaha