- Thread starter Tvagyok!
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Dominicans and their ancestry
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Let us DEBATE in a civilzed way!!!
Two years ago I took a class in College called History of the Caribbean (HIS345). My professor was a well educated man born in Canada to Trinidadian and Haitian parents. We read and wrote on all the nations of the West Indies, and their history. Including slavery, sugar, and the revolutions (did you know that Haiti is the only sucessfull slave revolt resulting in the production of a nation)I wrote my final paper on Haitian-American Relations: Abuse of Haitians in the DR (no I'm not one of those who want the nation to unite-just that the abuse must stop).
Anyways, much of what Nal0whs says in his posts are facts. I have read these on many occasions, even out of that class. I particularly remember in class we did a couple of days on slavery per colony. And no, the Sp., Fr., and Pg. did not mistreat their slaves. In fact at one point, Port-au-prince was the hub of the americas. The Fr. dressed their slaves in the finest, all that was worn at the home land the slaves wore. The slaves all knew how o read and write. The only ones who treated their slaves like animals were the Eng., especially in the soon to be US colonies.
We cannot denie our heritaage. When asked what nationality are you what do you say? I don't know about you but, I say Dominican. I don't ramble on about "well I was born in DR but my ancestors are Taino, African, blah blah blah. Usually people will say "oh you don't look Dominican" (i'm white with blond hair/ maybe your so black your purple). My response is that Dominicans come in many colors. We are a mix of many colors and cultures. i'm not going to say my family is of French descendant, or the pulple person say I'm of Haitian descendant.
That's enough people----we are what dog owners call a mutt.
Skinwise we are: black, white, mulatto, mestizo, or native american and then some mor mixing of those which bring out features that don't go with the face (this is without the textbook definition: blk.+wht.=mul, wht.+na=mestizo and so on)
**sorry, but i'm not the best at expressing my self in writing.
Two years ago I took a class in College called History of the Caribbean (HIS345). My professor was a well educated man born in Canada to Trinidadian and Haitian parents. We read and wrote on all the nations of the West Indies, and their history. Including slavery, sugar, and the revolutions (did you know that Haiti is the only sucessfull slave revolt resulting in the production of a nation)I wrote my final paper on Haitian-American Relations: Abuse of Haitians in the DR (no I'm not one of those who want the nation to unite-just that the abuse must stop).
Anyways, much of what Nal0whs says in his posts are facts. I have read these on many occasions, even out of that class. I particularly remember in class we did a couple of days on slavery per colony. And no, the Sp., Fr., and Pg. did not mistreat their slaves. In fact at one point, Port-au-prince was the hub of the americas. The Fr. dressed their slaves in the finest, all that was worn at the home land the slaves wore. The slaves all knew how o read and write. The only ones who treated their slaves like animals were the Eng., especially in the soon to be US colonies.
We cannot denie our heritaage. When asked what nationality are you what do you say? I don't know about you but, I say Dominican. I don't ramble on about "well I was born in DR but my ancestors are Taino, African, blah blah blah. Usually people will say "oh you don't look Dominican" (i'm white with blond hair/ maybe your so black your purple). My response is that Dominicans come in many colors. We are a mix of many colors and cultures. i'm not going to say my family is of French descendant, or the pulple person say I'm of Haitian descendant.
That's enough people----we are what dog owners call a mutt.
Skinwise we are: black, white, mulatto, mestizo, or native american and then some mor mixing of those which bring out features that don't go with the face (this is without the textbook definition: blk.+wht.=mul, wht.+na=mestizo and so on)
**sorry, but i'm not the best at expressing my self in writing.
Dont forget the slaves
The caribbean was a "hub" for slaves being brought to North America from Africa. This is a huge factor in the "negro" Dominican population. There is a good chance that your ancestory has "black" Dominican influence.
The caribbean was a "hub" for slaves being brought to North America from Africa. This is a huge factor in the "negro" Dominican population. There is a good chance that your ancestory has "black" Dominican influence.
I was born in DR and came to the US when I was twelve. Living in DR until that age, I didn't even know what the word racist meant until I came to the US. In the US I saw whites grouping with whites, and blacks grouping with blacks. Believe me I received rejection and racist remarks from these groups. Black Americans were more outspoken about their remarks. Later in life as I learned more english and understood the american culture a little better I was able to befriend members of both groups. Overall, I think culture has a lot to do on how racism is implemented. I cannot say I am black because I don't possess the culture of Black American and I cannot defitely call myself white because color and cultural wise I am not white. I prefer to identify myself to non-hispanics as hispanics instead of Dominican because after living 20 years in the US I feel that I am a part of the new culture that has been created by Latin American immigrating to the US.
Hi Stodgord,
A few things...Of course you didn't know what racism was in DR because you were twelve. It's a very subtle phenomenon. However, if you, now older, were looking for a job...you might get a job decription that looked like this (if you were a female):
ERES BACHILLER, delgada, color claro, buena presencia, referencia, de 18 a 40 a?os. Persona mayor sola, necesita asistente y compa??a en su tienda y residencia. RD$5,000, comida, dormida, veh?culo, etc. Inf. xxx-xxxx, xxx-xxxx.
Sometimes it is not even said. It is just "understood."
As for your sentiment, I understand were you are coming from and can agree in terms of culture and ethnicity, but not in terms of race. Race is what you write down when you fill out the census or other offical paperwork. Dominicans in their eyes, surpress their blackness unless it is unavoidable and even then it's pretty funny to hear the euphemisms used for self-identification: negra india, india, morena clara, jaba, etc....all to avoid saying what we all can see....a person of color. It is my sense that this continued sense of denial does affect us politically in the US, as such, our poor neighborhoods are suffering from lack of proper service delivery and we are too busy kissing arse to notice.
IMHO, the issue of not acknowledging or surpressing our racial make-up comes at too high of a cost.
DR can progess as it pleases in this area. Personally, if I lived in DR I would take PIB's political position...I would refused to be limited. However, for those Dominicans (and subsequent generations of Dominican-Americans) who choose to come to the US and live, need to recognize they are not in Kansas anymore.
D
A few things...Of course you didn't know what racism was in DR because you were twelve. It's a very subtle phenomenon. However, if you, now older, were looking for a job...you might get a job decription that looked like this (if you were a female):
ERES BACHILLER, delgada, color claro, buena presencia, referencia, de 18 a 40 a?os. Persona mayor sola, necesita asistente y compa??a en su tienda y residencia. RD$5,000, comida, dormida, veh?culo, etc. Inf. xxx-xxxx, xxx-xxxx.
Sometimes it is not even said. It is just "understood."
As for your sentiment, I understand were you are coming from and can agree in terms of culture and ethnicity, but not in terms of race. Race is what you write down when you fill out the census or other offical paperwork. Dominicans in their eyes, surpress their blackness unless it is unavoidable and even then it's pretty funny to hear the euphemisms used for self-identification: negra india, india, morena clara, jaba, etc....all to avoid saying what we all can see....a person of color. It is my sense that this continued sense of denial does affect us politically in the US, as such, our poor neighborhoods are suffering from lack of proper service delivery and we are too busy kissing arse to notice.
IMHO, the issue of not acknowledging or surpressing our racial make-up comes at too high of a cost.
DR can progess as it pleases in this area. Personally, if I lived in DR I would take PIB's political position...I would refused to be limited. However, for those Dominicans (and subsequent generations of Dominican-Americans) who choose to come to the US and live, need to recognize they are not in Kansas anymore.
D
Stodgord said:
I hate to call you on this, but I have been in the job market since 1991, both employing people as well as looking for jobs. "Buena presencia" is generally understood to mean that you know how to dress to the occassion and that you are not a slob*. I have yet to see ONE time an ad say anything about skin colour. I am open to cites to the contrary.deelt said:
Age discrimination? Out and in the open though.
*I am sure some people might discriminate against people of colour once they show up for the interview, but I have never seen that openly.
Hey PIB
Sorry to disappoint you Pib. The job posting I put up WAS in fact posted in a newspaper in DR and online. An old DR1 poster sent it to me in his job search. I just deleted the phone number and replaced it with Xs. It's an actual ad from about 1.5-2 months ago. I can PM it to you if you'd like.
Having "buena presencia" is not an issue with me. That was not the clause I bolded.
Yes, age discrimination does happen, but that's another battle and another thread. I think this situation is also scandalous given the % of single mothers in DR receiving no financial support. I really don't see a need to attach your pic with a CV. Hiring should be merit-based.
Best,
D
Sorry to disappoint you Pib. The job posting I put up WAS in fact posted in a newspaper in DR and online. An old DR1 poster sent it to me in his job search. I just deleted the phone number and replaced it with Xs. It's an actual ad from about 1.5-2 months ago. I can PM it to you if you'd like.
Having "buena presencia" is not an issue with me. That was not the clause I bolded.
Yes, age discrimination does happen, but that's another battle and another thread. I think this situation is also scandalous given the % of single mothers in DR receiving no financial support. I really don't see a need to attach your pic with a CV. Hiring should be merit-based.
Best,
D
Pib said:
We are not in extreme disagreement here. I do agree that there is a pernicious precense of racism in all social scales here. Sometimes it also works as 'reverse racism' and even xenophobia. However, I have to admit that although I have seen racism with my own two eyes I have yet to be a victim of it, at least I never noticed (admitting here that my experience does not constitute data). That one example that you found is, at least to me the shining example of the Law of Exceptions to the Rules.deelt said:
There are many real-life, frequent, daily examples to be waved, I am unsure that ad is one of them. Of course you are free to disagree.
Yup!
I also think that you have not been a victim because of how you project yourself. In DR, that gives you some extra mileage to run up in neutral; especially, if the palatibility of your complexion is "tres dominicaine"...if you understand my French.
D
I also think that you have not been a victim because of how you project yourself. In DR, that gives you some extra mileage to run up in neutral; especially, if the palatibility of your complexion is "tres dominicaine"...if you understand my French.
D
Pib said:
In all honesty Deelt, I think you search too hard for these types of things.deelt said:Yup!
I also think that you have not been a victim because of how you project yourself. In DR, that gives you some extra mileage to run up in neutral; especially, if the palatibility of your complexion is "tres dominicaine"...if you understand my French.
D
You know what they say, if you search hard for something, You'll find it even when its not there.
I'm not denying racism here, it probably exist to a certain degree. Let's face it, we are a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, pretty much a multi-everything country.
However, for such a diverse country, it sure is quiet. There are other places in this world where two types of people are creating civil wars because of the "differences". Now that is what I call real racism, the Tutsi and the rest of Congolese in former Zaire (I believe that's where this is taking place) really are hammering each other.
BTW, do you remember what the ad you quoted was for? For what position? For what company?
-Just wondering. :glasses:
Interesting ad.
This is an interesting ad. Seen the exact same one the other day on another site. Posted by a DominicanAzuca This was a Pan African site that seems dedicated to explaining to all peoples of african descent no matter their color,or country, of just how black they are.
Would not happen to know which site I mean do you Deelt?
deelt said:
This is an interesting ad. Seen the exact same one the other day on another site. Posted by a DominicanAzuca This was a Pan African site that seems dedicated to explaining to all peoples of african descent no matter their color,or country, of just how black they are.
Would not happen to know which site I mean do you Deelt?
While the following link is not about DR, it is about racism in another Caribbean island and how it is manifested in the employment practices of one of that country's key economic sectors:
http://www.cubaencuentro.com/sociedad/20050303/eaaa77d7882bfa58911102c1c5dc6b2e/1.html
http://www.cubaencuentro.com/sociedad/20050303/eaaa77d7882bfa58911102c1c5dc6b2e/1.html
Chronic social problem...
Deelt,
You know I always like to lend support and I admire the way you face this polemic issue time and time again on the board.
I truly believe institutionalized racism which is the kind of racism that is prevalent in the DR is the most difficult to eradicate. Whether evidenced by the ad you posted or in many other subtle forms the truth is it is still a chronic social problem that stems from the top (i.e. the Dominican elite) and effects all levels of society. Some will insist that racism does not exist if they are not a victim of it, which is a huge part of the problem. For change to take place there acknowledgement of the problem is imperative and without it, it will persist. At present those who are oppressed don't have the education or (political) power to initiate change. To those who it favors they will continue to downplay it, after all why change the status quo. The only immediate change I foresee in the DR is individual progression by those who are willing to take a stance instead of fostering the inculcated beliefs (via denial) that have been instilled by the likes of Trujillo & Co. I will take a page from your book "the DR can progress as it pleases in this area" but I think it's about time many realize that this is a social problem that continues to oppress most of those who refuse to acknowledge it. I personally have a different agenda.
-Lesley D-
Deelt,
You know I always like to lend support and I admire the way you face this polemic issue time and time again on the board.
I truly believe institutionalized racism which is the kind of racism that is prevalent in the DR is the most difficult to eradicate. Whether evidenced by the ad you posted or in many other subtle forms the truth is it is still a chronic social problem that stems from the top (i.e. the Dominican elite) and effects all levels of society. Some will insist that racism does not exist if they are not a victim of it, which is a huge part of the problem. For change to take place there acknowledgement of the problem is imperative and without it, it will persist. At present those who are oppressed don't have the education or (political) power to initiate change. To those who it favors they will continue to downplay it, after all why change the status quo. The only immediate change I foresee in the DR is individual progression by those who are willing to take a stance instead of fostering the inculcated beliefs (via denial) that have been instilled by the likes of Trujillo & Co. I will take a page from your book "the DR can progress as it pleases in this area" but I think it's about time many realize that this is a social problem that continues to oppress most of those who refuse to acknowledge it. I personally have a different agenda.
-Lesley D-
deelt said:
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Thanks for the link...
Juancarlos,
Thanks for the link. I read this website regularly as you know. Since you and I both read the works of Carlos Alberto Montaner if you go his website as referenced in my post #53, you will be able to access one of his books that I think defines this chronic social problem very well in Latin America collectively. If you ever choose to read at least one chapter I suggest you read "los negros en una sociedad tenazmente racista". We have had great discussions behind the scenes and I would love to hear your thoughts on this one.
As well, having spent time in other Latin America countries such as Colombia, Panama and Puerto Rico I could confirm that Carlos Alberto Montaner once again has hit the nail on the head.
-Lesley D-
Juancarlos,
Thanks for the link. I read this website regularly as you know. Since you and I both read the works of Carlos Alberto Montaner if you go his website as referenced in my post #53, you will be able to access one of his books that I think defines this chronic social problem very well in Latin America collectively. If you ever choose to read at least one chapter I suggest you read "los negros en una sociedad tenazmente racista". We have had great discussions behind the scenes and I would love to hear your thoughts on this one.
As well, having spent time in other Latin America countries such as Colombia, Panama and Puerto Rico I could confirm that Carlos Alberto Montaner once again has hit the nail on the head.
-Lesley D-
juancarlos said:
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That sense of quiet acceptance of people inculcated to believe that they are less than is the easiest way to maintain status quo. DR has done it right...peacefully.
First we are on a site about DR. If I wanted to talk about Rwanda, Congo, or Zaire I would have posted my comment elsewhere. What occured in Rwanda is not racism. It's ethnic strife, founded by the Catholic church...so let's not even go there.
On the Ad...Why do you ask? Do you want to apply to be some woman's servant? I thought you owned a corporation...how many people of color do you have in the high ranks? I would assume that your 100% pure white family members are the only ones allowed to run the show. No matter, if you need a job (probably because you spend too much time posting on DR1), just get a newspaper. I am sure it won't be difficult to find a job for you. With your 100% pure white complexion and your superiority complex, you are 95% of the way there.
:glasses:
D
First we are on a site about DR. If I wanted to talk about Rwanda, Congo, or Zaire I would have posted my comment elsewhere. What occured in Rwanda is not racism. It's ethnic strife, founded by the Catholic church...so let's not even go there.
On the Ad...Why do you ask? Do you want to apply to be some woman's servant? I thought you owned a corporation...how many people of color do you have in the high ranks? I would assume that your 100% pure white family members are the only ones allowed to run the show. No matter, if you need a job (probably because you spend too much time posting on DR1), just get a newspaper. I am sure it won't be difficult to find a job for you. With your 100% pure white complexion and your superiority complex, you are 95% of the way there.
:glasses: D
Nal0whs said:
Well, you know what I meant by my comment.
In case you didn't, then its was this, if you want to see such problem in its most purest form, by all means check in many places and compare to DR.
As far as I'm concerned, the cleansing of another type of person is racism. It's all in the "dislike" department.
I was asking in all sincerity.
Anyhow, I just wanted to verify the ad myself, simply because usually there is only one or two ads with such comments and twenty ads where they make no regards to physical appearance beyond buena presencia.
And guess what, I'm not the biggest fan of nepotism and the last time I checked, my vice president of finance is an indio oscuro or in your terminology, black; despite his mother being very light skin.
-Nal0whs
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Lesley D said:
Lesley, thank you for reminding me of CAM's website. I found it and I read the chapter you suggested. Good information there.
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