DR's character assassination

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Oct 29, 2006
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Rocky, I know you are good person, I can see that because or your many posts here.
However, I feel something about those posts, which tells me that you are burnt out with DR and your experiences. I respect the fact that you have a business and lived there for 15 years, but guess what?
You sound very, very, extremely negative, and I'm sorry I can't accept your point of view.
I believe in progress and the possibility that any human being (such as you or myself) can find a better life.
Please, please be honest, because otherwise, you are not going to fool anybody else.
 

Lambada

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Me too. I felt the same way 14 years ago. And it probably will change very very slowly with the growth of more boutique hotels not operating on the all inclusive model. I believe in 'to the victor the spoils'. If the tourists are bright enough to disbelieve what they hear, or are natural adventurers, like Chiri's friends, they'll get out and about anyway. We started out here as a tourists, twice, before becoming residents and we were out of the hotel all the time. First rep. was excellent, didn't spout rubbish and ended up living here (for those who know Mike Evans), second rep. tried it on. We laughed, loudly, and left the briefing meeting. Other people can do the same. You will always get independent souls and then there are the sheep.

And, as Rocky says, there are bigger problems which we can actually do something about relatively speedily. Burn out is not part of my nature, you may agree............? And I concentrate on other areas.

But if you can get this one changed rapidly, Rafael, good on you. I will be impressed. ;) Just don't want you to get too disappointed if it doesn't happen in your time frame.
 

Rocky

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You sound very, very, extremely negative, and I'm sorry I can't accept your point of view.
Don't confuse my desire to discourage people from making mistakes, or drawing incorrect conclusions, with negativity.
Negativity is not part of my nature.
I'm a naturally happy person, living the life I want to live, cheating the grim reaper by some odd 5,000 plus days.

I believe in progress and the possibility that any human being (such as you or myself) can find a better life.
I'm already living the better life, but one has to be careful what one wishes for. Ask some of the DR old timers. As this country "progresses", we lose a lot of freedom. It's a natural course, and cannot be avoided, but along the way, we land up looking back and remembering how good it used to be.

Please, please be honest, because otherwise, you are not going to fool anybody else.
Them's fighting words ( I know you didn't mean them to be).
The one thing nobody can question, is my honesty and sincerity.
I may be old & ugly, but I'm as honest a person as you'll ever meet.
It is the very foundation of my existence and the premise on which Rocky's has been built.
 
Sep 19, 2005
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Rafael Rothschild......please dont assasinate rocky's( marco) character!!!!!!!!!!

after more than a year here reading and posting...I really got to stand up and say....you have him pegged all wrong...you may be reading too much into what he writes or it hits a sore spot or whatever....but you know if you are at a site like this long enough you get to know who is on the level and posts with a consistant pattern......a few people i would believe almost hook line and sinker for an opinion based on real or believed( still important) facts......marco is one of those guys....

a subject like this has many view points...take that into consideration

and dont think I am his right hand man....I have tried to stand up for him before, for the same reason I do now....even though I have only met him in person maybe 3 or 4 times....

bob
 

Lambada

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I'm reminded of the serenity prayer 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'. Some of the DR old timers have, many years ago, tried to change the 'don't go off the campus' briefing speech by reps. - ask Bushbaby....................!

We all love enthusiasm and Rafael, you are an enthusiatic person. But there is a difference between well placed enthusiasm and trying to reinvent the wheel..............particularly when the transport is on horseback. Does the analogy convey what I am getting at?

If you had been correct in your assessment of Rocky he would have reacted negatively to your comments. The fact that he didn't shows that he is positive, not negative. And he is no more 'burnt out' than I am..........:laugh:
 

Chris

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Rafael Rothschild, criticism of other posters will get this thread closed. You are welcome to continue discussing this issue, please do so, but ongoing criticism of other posters are out of bounds.
 

Island777

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This debate is getting a little personal and silly.

Rocky, you defended the practice, although you are trying to now wiggle out of your defense of lying and slander (which is spoken hurtful falsehood) by AI's when they sometimes recommend that their guests only leave the compound with escorts due to the danger of the DR (and of course this happens in other 3rd world places). Just to dispel any doubt that Rocky defended this slander:

Rafael wrote:

If anybody here can trully defend the position of tour operators say so, without any excuses."

Almost two hours later Rocky quoted the above invitation by Rafael to defend lying to AI guests and wrote:

It's a simple case of logistics.
Tour operators, all inclusive hotels and tour reps, all want to make money.
That is the fundamental principle of business.
AI resorts barely make profit from the sale of the package, if at all.
The real profit is from what they sell their guests while they are here, be it from the boutiques, changing money or selling them tours.
To expect them to go to all the trouble of getting a guest into their resort and then tell them that they should go spend their money elsewhere is ludicrous.
It's tantamount to a Chevrolet dealer getting a client into his showroom, and telling him that the Fords across the street are great.
And is it true that it's more dangerous outside the resort?
Yes!
And who has to clean up the mess if a guest does get in trouble outside of the resort?
The tour rep.
So why in the world would the tour rep want the guest to go out of the resort, when they would lose revenue and complicate their lives?
This is not rocket science.
There is nothing immoral going on here and it's sound business.
As someone pointed out, most of the tourists who go to the AI resorts aren't even capable of dealing with the DR's "real world".

Rocky, it certainly appears that you took the position that falsely telling gullible tourists that its too dangerous to go out is moral and good business practice. Perhaps a little coursework in ethics might cause you to reconsider your position. Really, Marco you impugn your own integrity and morality by defending lying and then saying you did not defend lying but only sought to explain it. Calling fear-mongering moral and sound business is not explaining but defending.

The AI model is obviously changing on the north coast. To help this change along by crying out against the immoral practice of lying to guests is a good and moral thing to do. Things have changed dramatically in 15 years and will change even more in the next five. However, I agree that actually accomplishing change in this regard will be difficult. Ultimately it is the market that will rule. But we might nudge it along by communicating with potential AI customers that the self-interested, profit-motivated recommendations by AI's that leaving the tourist cage, i.e. compound of the AI, is too dangerous is false. The internet age offers new opportunities for such a broad outreach.

Taking the opposite viewpoint as Rocky, dv8, Cobra and others have done is unfortunate and morally wrong, at least according to my belief system. It is defending lying about and slander towards the DR. Of course, everyone has the right to their own code of ethics, I suppose, and we also have the right to be horrified!
 
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Sep 19, 2005
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island ..I am sure , NO DOUBT that there are many instances where a "AI" would LIE to a guest....but telling them it is dangerous or not a recomended thing to do.....to leave the resort. is NOT LYING....it is an OPINION

and it does in fact have facts to back it up...even if they are vaguely related....here on this site people we have seen where a relative has asked for information about a death in the family that happened in the DR to a person that was a tourist....... case closed for any notion that a AI operator says it is danmgerous........that doesnt include any petty crimes or all the crimes that fall in between.....few places in the world are safe from accidents....JUST the road syatem and its pitfalls in the DR are dangerous enough to justify a remark the AI may make...... and if they happen to have a vested intrest in the guest staying close to the resort...it could very well be a justified coincidence........there are enough people who make return visits that will start to ignore suggestions like that......

this issue is just opinons.....you only need a small amount of factual information to justify an opinon.....and thats my opinon

have a great day if you can

bob
 

cobraboy

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Taking the opposite viewpoint as Rocky, dv8, Cobra and others have done is unfortunate and morally wrong, at least according to my belief system. It is defending lying about and slander towards the DR. Of course, everyone has the right to their own code of ethics, I suppose, and we also have the right to be horrified!
Since you mentioned me by name, I feel compelled to respond.

The DR IS a dangerous place if you are not careful. There is evidence everywhere, be it bars on about every window, horrible traffic accidents, senseless murders, bodies found in drums with fingers and tongues cut off, ladrones, corrupt government and LE officials, pickpockets, many roads not suitable for 4 wheels, cars held together by chewing gum and duct tape....the list goes on and on.

IMO, the AI's have a "moral" obligation to issue warnings to their guests, for no other reason than to partially absolve themselves of responsibility ("We told you so...").

We all have a differing level of personal risk. Some AI tourists are deathly afraid of being overcharged in the gift shop. Some rent scooters for the streets and drink the water, unaware of the risks. Some are terrified at having a forced conversation in a foreign tongue. Some think it's "charming" to wander in a barrio at night.

Everything Rocky and others have said, is accurate. It is what it is.

Get off your high horse with it's "morality" tail droppings. Maybe YOUR morality and ethical "compass" is out of whack. Besides, who the f@[k are you to judge someone elses morality or ethics?

IMO, a few bowls of bran ceral for breakfast and big salads for lunch and dinner would do your attitude a world of good tomorrow morning ...:ninja:
 

Island777

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island ..I am sure , NO DOUBT that there are many instances where a "AI" would LIE to a guest....but telling them it is dangerous or not a recomended thing to do.....to leave the resort. is NOT LYING....it is an OPINION

and it does in fact have facts to back it up...even if they are vaguely related....here on this site people we have seen where a relative has asked for information about a death in the family that happened in the DR to a person that was a tourist....... case closed for any notion that a AI operator says it is dangerous........that doesnt include any petty crimes or all the crimes that fall in between.....few places in the world are safe from accidents....JUST the road syatem and its pitfalls in the DR are dangerous enough to justify a remark the AI may make...... and if they happen to have a vested intrest in the guest staying close to the resort...it could very well be a justified coincidence........there are enough people who make return visits that will start to ignore suggestions like that......

this issue is just opinons.....you only need a small amount of factual information to justify an opinon.....and thats my opinon

have a great day if you can

bob

Hi Bob and all,
No dispute that there are dangers lurking in the DR.
We all bring our personal experiences.
Mine include a visit to an AI many years ago during which my contract with a boat-tour was voided by the AI because of potential "liability." Also, several people I know have returned from stays at Punta Cana and Puerto Plata AI's with the advice that the DR is a very dangerous country as evidenced by the recommendations by the AI's recommendation that no one leave the grounds without escort or on one of their official AI tours. The caged surroundings, gun-toting guards and self-interested recommendations not to leave the compound led these American tourists to come back to the States telling everyone about how dangerous the DR is. I suppose its not the end of the world, but such fear-mongering really galls me. I have lived in Africa and toured many 3rd world countries without escorted tours, so I believe that these AI recommendations are unnecessary and false. Perhaps I am over-reacting, but it angers me when AI's dispense untrue information that is then disseminated far and wide thereafter. The DR can be dangerous, but so can other places, including first world cities. Imagine going to a hotel in NYC and being told that its recommended that you leave the hotel only with a hotel-escort or that you only go to a Broadway play as part of a hotel-sponsored tour. That is essentially how I see what happened to my friends when they visited the DR. Frankly it is encouraging that a poster on this thread visited AI's several times without hearing such advice.
 

Lambada

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Get off your high horse with it's "morality" tail droppings.
:laugh: :laugh: Love it! The picture you conjure up, cobraboy, is graphic.

I think we would all agree that tourists need sensible, realistic briefings and not overwrought scaremongering. Yes? But having said that, for those of us who live here and know the country fairly well, you know, there are far bigger 'moral' issues than this one. And banner waving & getting all hot under the collar whilst accusing other posters of immorality is not helping, island777. When you wrote 'this debate is getting a little personal and silly' you were dead right. So how did your contribution change that?

Cobraboy's contribution did. It injected humour. There are interesting issues being discussed here; let's not allow it to deteriorate to the ridiculous.
 

BushBaby

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Some of the DR old timers have, many years ago, tried to change the 'don't go off the campus' briefing speech by reps. - ask Bushbaby....................!

One of my first jobs here in the DR was as a Guest Service Manager in one of the Playa Dorada hotels. I was invited into the briefing meetings on the English speaking Tour Companies whose guests were staying at the hotel & I outlined what was & was not safe for the guests AS I SAW IT! The consensus then was that it WAS safe to leave the complex as long as sensible precautions were observed.
When I found out about Representatives advising differently, they were hauled in front of their of their superiors to justify any such adverse comments - generally failing miserably!

I recall with great amusement the stories Lambada used to tell me of her "jumping on to the transfer buses of incoming British guests" at one hotel (she was selling tours those days at the hotel kiosk) & giving them a pre-briefing chat before the rep passed on his/her sales chat - follow up chats with these guests brought stories of what the rep said in briefings AND how her (Lambada's) pre-chat had left guests a little amused by the reps derogatory comments!!

YES, reps do make comments about the dangers of leaving campus & sometimes these are not justified. Someone like Rafael (Spanish speaking & amiable) will NOT have problems in getting on with the local traders/inhabitants - someone who has NEVER been to a third world country before MIGHT. This person might be aggressive, not understand the culture & be just so timid in his/her approach to life that problems will occur as soon as he/she walks out of the gate!!

It is not just the Company Reps who make these claims of danger though - I am reminded of many a comment by visitors to our house of TOUR GUIDES at the gate to Playa Dorada who state firmly it is dangerous for guests to visit anywhere outside of the campus ....... unless they take a tour guide with them of course!!

We must not generalise here - with some Tour Companies the reps are perfectly honest (to the best of the information they have been given or acquired), others are less liberal with the truth!! Similarly, some tourists are perfectly safe to go out exploring on their own .......... others will find problems for themselves within minutes, either intentionally or unintentionally!! I worked for a while in the offices of the British Consul here in Puerto Plata & some of the stories of 'trouble-makers' would confuse the heck out of most readers!!

The answer here (as in MOST things) is education. Travel Agents, Tour Companies & their reps., need to be educated as to what the DR really IS like for safety, how tourists to DR should & should not conduct themselves & what they can & cannot safely do. 10 years ago I produced a tourist magazine for one Dutch, three British & a group of German Tour Companies which went on each seat of the transfer bus taking the tourist to the hotel. This was an introduction to the country but tailored to the individual company's Modus Operandi. Perhaps this is something that might be re-invented & passed on to the Travel Agents (for when they sell the tours), the Tour Company so that their reps KNOW what they are coming to & how to tell guests the implications of "going solo" & even the Tour Guides who stand outside Playa Dorada gate!!!!!!!!

Rocky in many ways is right - been there, got the 'T'-shirt, had the umpteen bottles of rum, even seen the film, re-makes & the 7 videos!!!!! We haven't been able to change much over the last 12/14 years but we do try to keep at it when opportunities arise! What would be FAR more effective would be for each tourist who reads this thread, to go try & remember what they heard from the tour rep at the briefing AND PASS THAT INFORMATION ON TO THE TOUR COMPANY HEAD OFFICE AS A COMPLAINT!! Failure to get a satisfactory response from the Tour Company should be followed up with a letter to the press &/or Ministry of Tourism in BOTH countries!!

Just to clear up one bit of misinterpretation - I checked with the BRITISH Tour Companies this morning & my understanding from the responses is that UK reps DO get a salary. They live in the hotels, have meals there & (basically) want for nothing except their personal good &/or bad habits!!:cheeky: I am reliably informed by the resort managers, that the salary is more than sufficient to cater for most habits & sales commission on excursions is generally considered "Money to put in the bank as savings". I STRESS, this is from the British Companies - those whom I have built a relationship over the years & are happy to pass on this sort of information to me. What happens with Canadian, American, Spanish, other European & Latino companies I have NOT checked.

I have made them aware of this thread so hopefully (if I have been misinformed) they will understand the level of concern here about this trait & change/improve anything that gives them cause to think that their reps pass on misinformation for personal gain. Maybe one or two might respond here anyway! ~ Grahame.
 
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Thank you for your post Grahame.

I too have informed Felucho's personal secretary Daisy Mendez, as well as their General Consulate in New York.

Whatever they do, if anything, with this report will be up to them.
They are, after all, the true representatives of all dominicans and have more access to information and course of action than any of us.
 

BushBaby

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Delighted to hear of this positive action Rafael - we "Old Burnt Out Fogies" who have been down this road in the past many times, wish you EVERY success - HONESTLY!!

Following on your comment, I would ask Island777 for a copy of the e-mail/letter he & his friends sent to the Tour Company, the Travel Agent & local press about their experiences of AI intimidation. I will then pass these around the Tour Company resort managers that I know to show them the sort of bad publicity that comes from misinformation being passed on by Representatives in the hotels. Was it the Tour Reps. Island777, or was it the hotel management/staff themselves? This wasn't perfectly clear in your posts & I would hate to be knocking the Tour Companies if it was the hotel (who have absolutely NO reason to say such things - moral OR immoral!).

You can send the e-mail via DR1 e-mail facility or if you prefer, PM me & I will give you my full e-Mail address. Maybe between us with concrete information, we CAN make a difference to what is being said at briefings & in hotel lobbies. ~ Grahame.
 

dv8

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Taking the opposite viewpoint as Rocky, dv8, Cobra and others have done is unfortunate and morally wrong, at least according to my belief system. It is defending lying about and slander towards the DR. Of course, everyone has the right to their own code of ethics, I suppose, and we also have the right to be horrified!

now, i have been called "the devil's child" but never anyone would imply i am morally wrong, even in hell we do have an ethical code of practice, you know... :devious:

i can almost hear your "phew, i knew" when i admit that i am an employee of his majesty's lucifer's service of tour operator. if you bothered enough to search my posts (not those where i complain about DR) you'd see that even as satan's representative i give people honest advice about DR, that is as honest and up to date as i can. i say DR can be dangerous if you flash your wealth and go to inappropriate places but it's enough to take reasonable precautions to travel here happily. you'd see i suggest to do trips with big tour operators since they are more secure and security is what lots of tourists are after.

i see that you may be one of those fanatics from the team of the "other" bloke with a beard and halo above his head and you like to FORCE people into happiness. those who post here BEFORE travelling to DR want to know more about this country and want to see it as it is. but 99% of tourist coming to AI are "fat lazy bastards" who could not care less. please, save salvation of those poor souls till the judgement day, and in any case, it is my boss, not yours, who's gonna take most of them.... :devious:

i know you want good, but please, do not engage ethics into that. by the way, did you know that accidentally ETHICS is the name of caba?a on a way to santiago? :speechles

as bertold brecht said: hitler could make a good SS team from 12 apostles.
beware, YOUR ethics is no better than mine. any ethics in excess is fanaticism, and THAT is no good at all. :ermm:
 

Rocky

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This debate is getting a little personal and silly.
Yet, you go on.

Rocky, you defended the practice, although you are trying to now wiggle out of your defense of lying and slander (which is spoken hurtful falsehood) by AI's when they sometimes recommend that their guests only leave the compound with escorts due to the danger of the DR (and of course this happens in other 3rd world places). Just to dispel any doubt that Rocky defended this slander:
There must be a flaw in your logic, as it would be slander, or in fact, libel, if it were not true that it is more dangerous outside the confines of the resort.
Nobody can deny that, not even you, so what have you actually proven here?
That you are obsessed with proving me wrong?
That you don't know what slander means?
 
Oct 29, 2006
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Maybe, I should have posted this thread differently.

Rocky, my apology for my earlier comments, it was as result of a bit of frustration on my part.

Let me try these questions for Rocky, Cobraboy, DV8 and anybody else who wishes to answer them.
Please answer them as you would on a poll: YES, NO, DON'T KNOW, without any added analysis, past history, how dumb most turists are, etc., etc.



A.-Is it better to leave alone? let the "status quo" remain as is?
B.-Could it be better if the current information being provided improves
in value, honesty and accuracy?
C.-Would these changes hurt or benefit more dominicans?
D.-Would these changes improve the image of DR?
E.-Would these changes destroy foreign investors in the hospitality business?
F.-Would these changes create more business for the taxi industry?
G.-Would these changes create more business for the local shops.
H.-Would these changes create more jobs outside the All Inclusives?
I.-Aren't these changes inevitable in the foreseeable future?
 

dv8

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poll! we want polls and games!

A.-Is it better to leave alone? let the "status quo" remain as is?
B.-Could it be better if the current information being provided improves
in value, honesty and accuracy?
C.-Would these changes hurt or benefit more dominicans?
D.-Would these changes improve the image of DR?
E.-Would these changes destroy foreign investors in the hospitality business?
F.-Would these changes create more business for the taxi industry?
G.-Would these changes create more business for the local shops.
H.-Would these changes create more jobs outside the All Inclusives?
I.-Aren't these changes inevitable in the foreseeable future?

a. i don't know
b. yes
c. both (semantically one cannot answer yes or no here)
d. yes
e. no
f. TAXI? or tax? taxi - yes, taxes - don't know
g. yes
h. yes
i. no

rafael, i admire your zeal but this crusade is doomed.
 

Lambada

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Thank you for your post Grahame.

I too have informed Felucho's personal secretary Daisy Mendez, as well as their General Consulate in New York.

Whatever they do, if anything, with this report will be up to them.
They are, after all, the true representatives of all dominicans and have more access to information and course of action than any of us.

And therein could lie a small problem. The Ministry of Tourism has concerns that if it gets too confrontational with tour companies, those companies will say 'Oh ok, we won't use the DR as a destination, we'll take our punters to Cancun or .........' (insert any one of several names of holiday destinations).

I don't know if you remember a couple of months back the foreign 'movie producers' who were in fact nothing but pedophiles pretending to offer film roles to young Dominicans. UK & Spain sent its own police to pick up its own citizens who were engaged in this practice here in DR and the foreign police got very little assistance from DR police who had been told to keep it low key so as not to upset tourism! Now, if they won't confront crimes being perpetrated against Dominican children with foreign police present in the country to arrest the perps. there may be slim chance that they would want to go out of their way to control tour reps. briefings..........The report of this is here.
http://elnacional.com.do/article.aspx?id=1462

dv8, devil's child, yo momma's goin' to summon yo to repent :laugh: That has to rank as one of the funniest posts I've ever seen. AND in a third language........hat's off to you, girl.
 

cobraboy

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Maybe, I should have posted this thread differently.

Rocky, my apology for my earlier comments, it was as result of a bit of frustration on my part.

Let me try these questions for Rocky, Cobraboy, DV8 and anybody else who wishes to answer them.
Please answer them as you would on a poll: YES, NO, DON'T KNOW, without any added analysis, past history, how dumb most turists are, etc., etc.



A.-Is it better to leave alone? let the "status quo" remain as is?
B.-Could it be better if the current information being provided improves
in value, honesty and accuracy?
C.-Would these changes hurt or benefit more dominicans?
D.-Would these changes improve the image of DR?
E.-Would these changes destroy foreign investors in the hospitality business?
F.-Would these changes create more business for the taxi industry?
G.-Would these changes create more business for the local shops.
H.-Would these changes create more jobs outside the All Inclusives?
I.-Aren't these changes inevitable in the foreseeable future?
Let's split hairs.

If you want to improve the image of the DR, the most effective way to do it is to change the image of the country as a sex tourist destination. IMO, that reputation vastly exceeds the total damage a TO/AI person does in telling guests the "danger" of the DR.

You guys just won't give up, will you? Opinions vary, but you cannot accept that.

How about this: go on a crusade against DR used car salesmen not telling the whole truth.
 
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