Forum Reading -short articles

[Chirimoya]

A side note -

Jos? Mar?a Aznar, the ex Prime Minister of Spain

In Spanish, the title is "Presidente del Gobierno" and sometimes this is wrongly translated as "the President of Spain". The title is indeed "Prime Minister". Spain hasn't got a President; like the UK it has a Prime Minister and a constitutional monarch.

Prime Minister of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Marianopolita]

I am not sure if I have seen that---

Yes, I tend to be careful with that and know that for Spain their leader of the country is a Prime Minister because it's the same as Canada.

I have not seen what you mentioned in articles because I do not read translated versions of newspaper docs. I read everything in the language of origin. You may want to put that in your thread 'Some tricky words'.


-MP.

 

[Chirimoya]

Not just translation, actually - if you read an English language news report that mentions the Spanish PM it may well contain that error. I see it from time to time. Will copy the post to the tricky words thread as suggested.

 

[Chip]

What a nicely written article and informative too.

It appears the author believes that Spain went from a leader and strong economy to a failed economy(unemployment >20%) in a matter of a few short years by decentralizing the government which had the effect of the local governments wasting money on social programs and completely disregarding the importance of promoting a business friendly atmosphere. I wasn't aware that they were in a such dire situation. Let this be a lesson to all who think socialism and taxing should be expanded in Europe.

 

[Marianopolita]

Crisis in the Ivory Coast----

What a nicely written article and informative too. ---

Yes, it's a gem that's why I posted it.


I don't know if anyone is interested in this kind of news but I am since Africa, as a continent historically has had plenty of political strife. Well, here we go again this time it's the Ivory Coast on the possible brink of civil war and they recently had a similar crisis in 2002 and 2007. The current president of the country is being forced to leave by the new president elect and his followers but those pro Gbagbo are putting up a fight and the president himself has declared that he is not leaving. Isn't this all too familiar and how many times does history have to repeat itself?

Anyway, once again ABC.es has done a wonderful jobs in terms of documenting a situation via a well written journalistic piece. I just read this article and enjoyed every inch of it from a linguistic perspective. My suggestion to anyone who reads it is to look at the usage of the subjunctive, it's all over and look at when it's used and ensure that you know the grammatical reason why. Anyway if this country is on the brink of civil war this is sad news for the people of the Ivory Coast (gentilicio- los marfile?os).


El presidente de Costa de Marfil se niega a dejar el pas - ABC.es



I also read an article in what I consider Canada's best French newspaper, Le Devoir and also one my favourites for French reading. I just wanted to post the photo from one of their articles about the situation because to me it's tragic that this country is going through a political crisis again and we all know how this stagnates if not destroys the progress of a country. A recent example is Haiti.

(As well this is a great article in French)

La C?te d


-MP.

 

[Chip]

Yes a very informative and for me a very cleary written article. Are we sure it wasn't translated because I had less of a problem with odd formations and words than say in Listin Diario?

Here are a couple sentances I would like to discuss:

..la Uni?n Europea pidiera al Ej?rcito de Costa de Marfil que dejase de apoyar a Gbagbo..

Apparently it's ok to add the reflexive pronoun(?) to the end of the conjugated verb as opposed to the following formation I am accustomed to seeing:

..la Uni?n Europea pidiera al Ej?rcito de Costa de Marfil que se deja de apoyar a Gbagbo..

This is one that got me:

desplazarse a la zona

I would have used "de" la zona. These are typical mistakes of mine and the only real solution is simple memorization just like in English.

 

[Marianopolita]

These are just good articles, translation or not.....

How can you tell if it's translated just because of the clarity? And if it were, then I'd say without even seeing the source text the translator did a fantastic job. I suggest you move away from that thought pattern when you read an article. Take it for what is only unless the sentences clearly don't make sense which is not the case.


Dejase- this is not a pronominal form (just a note reflexive is not always the correct term just because you see the pronoun 'se' it depends on the verb).

Anyway in this case this is not the pronominal form as in dejarse (infinitive form of the verb). This is the imperfect subjunctive known as the -se forms. Spanish has two imperfect subjunctive forms the -ra form and the -se form. The -ra endings are more popular in general both in the written and the spoken language. The -se forms are more popular in the written language although you will hear people use them. In my experience, South Americans and in particular the older colonial cities where traditional Spanish still dominates (and that's a good aspect) you will hear the -se forms a lot. The first city that comes to mind is Lima, Peru.

BTW- This grammar point is covered in all Spanish text books.

Here is a chart right from the RAE:

Pret?rito imperfecto o Pret?rito

dejara o dejase
dejaras o dejases
dejara o dejase
dej?ramos o dej?semos
dejarais o dejaseis / dejaran o dejasen
dejaran o dejasen



The full sentence is:


"Para los que tengan planeado desplazarse a la zona, Exteriores desaconseja "todo viaje por el momento".


This is correct. Desplazarse in this context means to travel to... Therefore 'a' is correct because it is the preposition of movement to a place in Spanish. Think of the direction which is forward. Therefore it would have to be 'a'.


-MP.

 

[Chip]

My only reason for the translation comment was that I thought it might be the case given that there were so few issues I had with "odd" formations; something that always seems to cause me problems. At any rate it was just an observation and not something I am generally concerned with.

With regard to dejase I realize I know this form and use it but am accustomed to the "r" form. I honestly should have recognized it immediately after seeing the preceding verb "pidiera" but somehow I missed it. In a spoken sentence I would not have but maybe this means my spoken level is at a higher level or I was just careless.

Finally, the Desplazarse sentence makes perfect sense now because I understood it was referring to the people in the country who wanted to leave and thus that is why I was confused.

Maybe in another 10 years I will better much at this.

 

[Norma Rosa]

Yes a very informative and for me a very cleary written article. Are we sure it wasn't translated because I had less of a problem with odd formations and words than say in Listin Diario?

Here are a couple sentances I would like to discuss:

..la Uni?n Europea pidiera al Ej?rcito de Costa de Marfil que dejase de apoyar a Gbagbo..

Apparently it's ok to add the reflexive pronoun(?) to the end of the conjugated verb as opposed to the following formation I am accustomed to seeing:

..la Uni?n Europea pidiera al Ej?rcito de Costa de Marfil que se deja de apoyar a Gbagbo..

Chip, must people in the DR use the ra ending of that verbal tense, but the se ending is also heard. I use it, and so do many others.

". . . que dejara de apoyar a Gbagbo" is what you would see or hear most of the time.

Is not that "se deja" does not exist. It does, but it comes from dejarse:
Ella se deja insultar. = She lets herself be insulted. (Allows it.)

 

[xamaicano]

Why is this necessary?

Anyway, I love this thread as I am required by my instructor to read Spanish articles and comment on them and there are always interesting ones here.

I hope in the next 10 years your English grammar will be as good as what you say your Spanish grammar is now.

I hope no one thinks that your posts are normal American English.

The above quote would be better stated as:



How can you preach so much about proper Spanish grammar and yet you couldn't care less about the English grammar in your posts?


Don

 

[Marianopolita]

SantiagoDr----

Please feel free to participate in the threads in this forum and provide insight and knowledge about Spanish. I for one enjoy reading a diverse group of opinions, acquiring knowledge and insight from the variety of posters.

I see a trend here with you analyzing Chip's posts and the ensuing comments. It may be tolerated in other forums but not in the Spanish forum. If you continue expect to see your posts disappear as they do not add value to the topic being discussed.


Thanks,

-MP.

 

[SantiagoDR]

Marianopolita

How can one have confidence in someone telling you what is the proper grammar in Spanish when they use such bad grammar in their native tongue which is English?

I read the Spanish Forum to learn, but I have serious doubt when I see so much incorrect grammar in the poster's own language.

Should I trust someone who can't get their own native grammar correct?


Sincerely,

Don

 

[Marianopolita]

SantiagoDR----

I understand what you are saying and thanks for responding to my post in a positive way.

Just keep in mind Chip is not the only poster in the forum and if you notice this trend in his writing then do not read or focus on his posts. There are many posters who post regularly in the forum who I am sure can help you with your Spanish queries. Here is a short list of posters who I am sure would help you if they can:


Chirimoya
Norma Rosa
Me- Marianopolita
M.A.R.
Ezequiel


If you have a newspaper article in Spanish that you read and would like to discuss please post it for discussion. Otherwise, I trust you understand my point of view and stance.


Let's move on please.


-MP.

 

[Chip]

Here is a nice article and inspirational too from Listin Diario:

Una carta dirigida a Dios entregada a los Reyes Magos - List?n Diario Digital

Also, I am now trying to read daily from at least one of the following publications:

La Informacion
El DiarioLibre
Listin Diario
El Nuevo Herald
MSN Latino
El Nuevo Herald (to keep up to date on Florida)

My vocabulary and understanding has increased a great deal in probably 6 months by simply reading and using Google translate to translate on the fly. It's too easy!

 

[Chip]

I found this to be a very intersting article about Raul Castro:

Raúl Castro hace llamado desesperado a los cubanos - Primera Plana - ElNuevoHerald.com

The "new" economic concept as seen below that has mentioned recently in the press is a real bombshell in my opinion and it is apparently Raul's new pet project. I wish them only the best too:

Por ello, pidi? un cambio de mentalidad a los cubanos y especialmente a los cuadros dirigentes, a quienes inst? a desterrar definitivamente el secretismo y la "mentira'' y a no "estigmatizar'' medidas como la ampliaci?n del trabajo por cuenta propia

 

[Marianopolita]

El Nuevo Herald- a good paper produced in Florida

Well, basically anything that Ra?l and Fidel write about "their failed revolution" I take with a grain of salt. Why? Simply because I think their revolution for the past fifty years has run its course. I like everything about Cuba except the leaders of the country since 1959 which was mostly Fidel until Ra?l took over for the past few years going forward. The article I do dream about reading one day from either of them is that they have given up and realize that their socialist revolution has been anything but a success.

I have been reading El Nuevo Herald for years and recently decided to take a break. It's a good newspaper, notably produced/ written by Cubans from the choice of vocabulary and expressions used in many articles. However, I still do read the opinion section though every Sunday because it has plenty of good weekly articles by renowned writers and journalists. I recommend articles by Carlos Alberto Montaner- Cuban writer, journalist, Jorge Ramos (journalist, but on Mondays or go directly to his website), Jaime Bayly, a Peruvian writer although he is critiqued a lot for his themes but his Spanish is impeccable and exemplifies a superior use of the language and a few other columnists.


-MP.


BTW- I recommend reading the articles without Google translate. Use a dictionary if you don't understand the meaning a word. Do all the leg work possible first. Translators should only be used if you really can't understand a phrase, expression etc. This is my opinion and also the hard way to really acquire language but it will champion your writing skills if you intend to write well some day with good grammar control etc.

 

[Chip]

FYI I only use Google to translate individual words and not phrases unless I can't find it in the dictionary. BTW, I made a new friend on xbox live from Valencia. His Spanish is very clear to me and he understands me as well.

 

[Marianopolita]

Certainly not a good way to spend the holidays.

Un joven dominicano mata a su madre y hiere a otras dos personas en Madrid


Televisi?n & Radio - Un joven dominicano mata a su madre y hiere a otras dos personas en Madrid - ADN.es


-MP.

 

[Norma Rosa]

Televisi?n & Radio - Un joven dominicano mata a su madre y hiere a otras dos personas en Madrid - ADN.es

Mala noticia.

Line 1: . . . tras ser . . ." Tras + verb is very common in writing, not so common in the oral language, which prefers luego + verb.

". . . muri? hoy en Madrid tras ser apu?alada . . ." (died today in Madrid after being stabbed . . . )

Tras + noun or pronoun is more common in speech: Juan anda tras Juana, or Juan anda detr?s de Juana. Juan is after Juana. (He is trying to get her, or looking for her.)

 

[Marianopolita]

atr?s, detr?s, tras----

Norma,

What about atr?s ? It would have been good to give examples of this adverb too since the correct usage of 'detr?s' and 'atr?s' often cause confusion for many speakers native, bilingual and foreigners alike. I find this is an example of where instinct (unknowingly) really does help. Some people know when to use one over the other but would never be able to explain why if they had to.

Also there are interesting nuances that are commonly heard but not considered correct in educated speech by many speakers everywhere such as detr?s m?o, detr?s tuyo etc. or delante m?o, delante tuyo. This is a classic case of education and/ or it also depends how the people around you speak. I remember the first time I heard these types of phrases and I was surprised that people did not even recognize that what they were saying was incorrect. Of course, one can understand what they mean or want to say.

As well, I believe the whole 'te llamo pa' tra' (te llamo para atr?s) originated in Miami with the English influence on Spanish. "I will call you back"- te llamo pa' tra. So literal so wrong and really does not make any sense especially if said to a Spanish speaker that does not speak English.


I hope to add a few more articles this week. There is so much going on around the world and the newspapers are wonderful for reading and observing vocabulary, grammar etc. in Spanish.


-MP.