From BBC news: Over 200 people violently killed in 10 days

Yourmaninvegas

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I am not trying to be insensitive.
But is this a turf war over a neighborhood or a civil war for control of the government?
It is a Somali style civil war that simply has not expanded to other parts of the country?
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Well none of the Haiti experts can could answer my questions.
So like I have always done I find my own answers.
Example: The Bourbon thread I started

I am not trying to be insensitive.
But is this a turf war over a neighborhood or a civil war for control of the government?
It is a Somali style civil war that simply has not expanded to other parts of the country?
Answer: It is a gang turf war.
I present exhibit A

"A former senator who worked for the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs was killed in a wealthy neighborhood of Haiti's capital and his body was burned along with that of his nephew, authorities said Sunday.

The official, Yvon Buissereth, was found dead with his nephew, who was not identified, on Saturday afternoon in Laboule, a sector of Port-au-Prince, government commissioner Jacques Lafontant told the AP on Sunday.

The area is not far from Pelerin, where President Jovenel Moïse was assassinated at his residence in July last year.

Buissereth, director of the Public Company for the Promotion of Social Housing, was traveling with his nephew in an official vehicle and they were found inside the burned-out vehicle, Lafontant said. He added that the crime was most likely committed by a gang trying to control that sector.

"It was a terrible event," he said.

The Ti Makak (“Little Macacos”) gang is battling the Toto gang for control of the area. Gangs in Haiti have become more powerful and have been fighting violently for territory since Moïse's murder.

Buissereth and his nephew were walking down a street that many Haitians use to avoid the Martissant area, which links Port-au-Prince to southern Haiti and is controlled by gangs that have killed many people in their fights.

Prime Minister Ariel Henry condemned Buissereth's murder as "a barbaric act" by gangs in Laboule.

"His murderers, as well as all other criminals who sow mourning in the country, will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and will be brought to justice for their nefarious acts," Henry wrote on social media on Sunday
." - Google Translate

And that is how you make a statement that supports your opinion...
 

mountainannie

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mountainannie

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No...one.. is really in charge in Haiti that can do anything. No...one outside of Haiti will do anything since... nothing changes.
The D.R. is worried about the Haitian problem and gangs that have already moved in.
It should be the D.R. asking for assistance.
I believe that the DR has very vocally asked for international assistance.
But - as we are all pretty much agreed - there will be no international military intervention to help Haiti.
there is always talk - of course -- https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/how-the-us-could-really-help-haiti/
The US certainly has given a great deal of support to the Dominican Republic - training the army, and giving aid (Including a very generous visa program) --

But... well...
Port Au Prince is only 5 hours from Sto.Dom...
 

johne

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I believe that the DR has very vocally asked for international assistance.
But - as we are all pretty much agreed - there will be no international military intervention to help Haiti.
there is always talk - of course -- https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/how-the-us-could-really-help-haiti/
The US certainly has given a great deal of support to the Dominican Republic - training the army, and giving aid (Including a very generous visa program) --

But... well...
Port Au Prince is only 5 hours from Sto.Dom...
MA....In one, two or three sentences..what would you like to see that is possible in this envirnomenand circumstances ? Short term? For the moment I suggest you leave the US out of this convo as the US has soooo.many issues it would be of little value to suggest an option. Fire away.
I know you are passionate about the subject but lets get down to the basics of reality.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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I have mentioned before in another thread...when the stake holders in Haiti have their investments endangered, that is when someone will step into Haiti. I do not believe it has to be a government entity.
 

mountainannie

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MA....In one, two or three sentences..what would you like to see that is possible in this envirnomenand circumstances ? Short term? For the moment I suggest you leave the US out of this convo as the US has soooo.many issues it would be of little value to suggest an option. Fire away.
I know you are passionate about the subject but lets get down to the basics of reality.
Had a long talk with my very educated Haitian neighbor today. This is now the end of Haitians blaming ANYONE ELSE for the shape the country is in. This is the result of YEARS of training that they are poor because some one outside is to blame. Too many people are "Mal educado" and think the world owes them a living...
"Sitting under a tree - playing Dominos"

I could go on.
As I do.
"I wrote a long letter because I did not have time to write a short one"
 
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NanSanPedro

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Had a long talk with my very educated Haitian neighbor today. This is now the end of Haitians blaming ANYONE ELSE for the shape the country is in. This is the result of YEARS of training that they are poor because some one outside is to blame. Too many people are "Mal educado" and think the world owes them a living...
"Sitting under a tree - playing Dominos"

I could go on.
As I do.
"I wrote a long letter because I did not have time to write a short one"

However well intentioned some of us were, I think we made gross errors in providing hand outs instead of a hand up. I can remember sobbing because of the poverty I saw and giving them everything I had, including clothes. It was overwhelming the first couple of times. So now we have created a climate of dependence which will take decades to stabilize.
 

mountainannie

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I have mentioned before in another thread...when the stake holders in Haiti have their investments endangered, that is when someone will step into Haiti. I do not believe it has to be a government entity.
As I have said to MANY Haitians -- I doubt that anyone will come
Every time the international community intervenes - all that happens is that the Haitians BLAME us.
They have all been taught that their poverty is the fault of the "blans" which is the Kreyole word for "foreigners"
 
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mountainannie

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However well intentioned some of us were, I think we made gross errors in providing hand outs instead of a hand up. I can remember sobbing because of the poverty I saw and giving them everything I had, including clothes. It was overwhelming the first couple of times. So now we have created a climate of dependence which will take decades to stabilize.
EXACTLY!!

And remittances Do Not Help.
Just as they do not help in the DR.
 

mountainannie

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However well intentioned some of us were, I think we made gross errors in providing hand outs instead of a hand up. I can remember sobbing because of the poverty I saw and giving them everything I had, including clothes. It was overwhelming the first couple of times. So now we have created a climate of dependence which will take decades to stabilize.
The Mormons were the only missionaries that I saw who actually did a GOOD JOB - as they train folks to WORK!!
 

NanSanPedro

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The Mormons were the only missionaries that I saw who actually did a GOOD JOB - as they train folks to WORK!!
I wish you could have met Roberta Audate. She was a daughter of an Army Drill Sergeant who ran a school/orphanage in PAP. Mucho mucho discipline. They had a tilapia fish farm and a chicken/egg business for about 20 guys.

It's been over 10 years now, but she was murdered in a shootout. The last thing she did was to make sure the kids with her got away. She was a woman beyond awesome. I still think of her.

I just searched and can't find anything on her. Very sad because she deserved to be remembered as a fantastic example for the rest of us.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Yes, but who is going to invest in what Haiti needs?
Massive infrastructure that will change living conditions for all the people.
Loans and grants that will rebuild the nation.
No the privileged a comfortable making their contributions, saying "Hey we sent the UN" and then leaving and shaking their head that "those people" just understand.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Remittances don't help the people of 🇭🇹 and 🇩🇴⁉️
(Insert inappropriate language of your choice here) please
Reading statements like that almost make me want to take the whip (and sit in the penalty box for two weeks) so I can write what I REALLY think.
 

NanSanPedro

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Yes, but who is going to invest in what Haiti needs?
Massive infrastructure that will change living conditions for all the people.
Loans and grants that will rebuild the nation.

No the privileged a comfortable making their contributions, saying "Hey we sent the UN" and then leaving and shaking their head that "those people" just understand.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Remittances don't help the people of 🇭🇹 and 🇩🇴⁉️
(Insert inappropriate language of your choice here) please
Reading statements like that almost make me want to take the whip (and sit in the penalty box for two weeks) so I can write what I REALLY think.

This has to be done by the Haitians themselves. Loans predicated on strictly measurable progress. Grants only to those who have proven themselves reliable and capable.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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This has to be done by the Haitians themselves. Loans predicated on strictly measurable progress. Grants only to those who have proven themselves reliable and capable.
You actually think Haitians as a people have the skill, but more importantly the desire to organize themselves in order to set up a government that can enter the world markets and make business proposals for major infrastructure improvements.

My position is the Haitians can have a squeaky clean government and still not gain any traction because of who they are and how the nation started.

I am not aware that Haitians are not making the remittances to the people of Haiti.
To me it would be likely that they are.
The people who are out, send back to help those they know that have not been able to get out.
 

NanSanPedro

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You actually think Haitians as a people have the skill, but more importantly the desire to organize themselves in order to set up a government that can enter the world markets and make business proposals for major infrastructure improvements.

My position is the Haitians can have a squeaky clean government and still not gain any traction because of who they are and how the nation started.

I am not aware that Haitians are not making the remittances to the people of Haiti.
To me it would be likely that they are.

The people who are out, send back to help those they know that have not been able to get out.

A long time ago I read where remittances from the Haitian diaspora was over 25% of GNP. Don't know how it is now.

As far as business, the Haitians do it daily on a micro scale. You should see them on free market day at one of the border towns. Literally thousands lined up to go into the DR to buy something and then resell it in Haiti. They probably make about 5 gourdes on each transactions, but they know how to do it. It's many more women than men. To me, Haitian women are very business savvy.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Perhaps we need another thread...or this has been beaten to death...

Haitians say 🇭🇹 can only be fixed from within
But all the Haitians providing those quotes to people are outside of the country.
Why can't they manage to organize themselves into a functioning civil society?
 
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