Gold or Child?

[Snuffy]

You are kidding right. Of course they are not making a good living by American standards but they are doing okay by Dominican standards. They probably own their home although small, they have a large extended family that depend on one another, they have some sort of job, they have food and clothing, they enjoy the festivities of Dominican life. What exactly are they lacking. You seem to imply they are destitute, homeless. What am I missing?

And Bob...that is a lame argument. You are saying that it is okay for mothers to give up five early years with a child for the sake of a possible better life in the future. You are kidding right.

That is a huge problem in the world today. Attention to detail with children is expendible. "Oh they will be fine" "5 years without mom or dad is no problem"

So you leave your daughter with a grandmother. One day the grandmother says to uncle billy....I need to go to the store....and you watch little Angie? Sure uncle billy says. Years later find out uncle billy was molesting little Angie when the old and tired grandmother was not watching.

Everyone in the USA is drunk with the idea that they will have all the riches they desire if they just work a little harder. They buy into the American Dream to the point that they will eat S*$t if they have to. And guess what, these masters of the fantasy have you duped here in the DR also. You will sacrifice your childs early years for a shot at the American Dream. It is a dumb fantasy that few win. It is a lottery. The odds are stacked against you. Put the children first always. Don't gamble with their lives. Even if you have to live an average and sometimes mundane life.

 

[trina]

You are kidding right. Of course they are not making a good living by American standards but they are doing okay by Dominican standards. They probably own their home although small, they have a large extended family that depend on one another, they have some sort of job, they have food and clothing, they enjoy the festivities of Dominican life. What exactly are they lacking. You seem to imply they are destitute, homeless. What am I missing?

And Bob...that is a lame argument. You are saying that it is okay for mothers to give up five early years with a child for the sake of a possible better life in the future. You are kidding right.

That is a huge problem in the world today. Attention to detail with children is expendible. "Oh they will be fine" "5 years without mom or dad is no problem"

So you leave your daughter with a grandmother. One day the grandmother says to uncle billy....I need to go to the store....and you watch little Angie? Sure uncle billy says. Years later find out uncle billy was molesting little Angie when the old and tired grandmother was not watching.

Everyone in the USA is drunk with the idea that they will have all the riches they desire if they just work a little harder. They buy into the American Dream to the point that they will eat S*$t if they have to. And guess what, these masters of the fantasy have you duped here in the DR also. You will sacrifice your childs early years for a shot at the American Dream. It is a dumb fantasy that few win. It is a lottery. The odds are stacked against you. Put the children first always. Don't gamble with their lives. Even if you have to live an average and sometimes mundane life.

See, you "get" it, Snuffy. Nothing should make a mother miss the early years of a child's life, especially chasing the dream of riches. Children should always be put first, as they are your only legacy.

 

[macocael]

You are kidding right. Of course they are not making a good living by American standards but they are doing okay by Dominican standards. They probably own their home although small, they have a large extended family that depend on one another, they have some sort of job, they have food and clothing, they enjoy the festivities of Dominican life. What exactly are they lacking. You seem to imply they are destitute, homeless. What am I missing?

Snuffy I am not sure whom you are addressing here, but I stand by my statements. We are not talking about American standards here, we are talking about Dominican, and I am sorry but the inequities of the system here are such that many of these people are not doing okay by Dominican standards, and they see no other way out. Their situation is tremendously pressured. You seem to have a romantic notion about large families here and how they operate, and while it is true that some families, muy unidas, do share the burdens and manage somehow to provide for everyone, many more do not. In fact the pressures on these families are sometimes greater; being just one more mouth to feed and not being able to contribute much to the communal chest more often than not compels these people to emigrate. And I have plenty of neighbors in Sonador -- a nice pueblo, with asphalt on the roads, sidewalks, plentiful water, decent services -- who are borderline malnourished, living in shacks, lacking work (what is there after all: peonage in the rice fields, a bit of odd construction now and then, small time buying and selling, motoconchistas). Nor do all these people own their own homes; there is one home in the family and usually far too many family members squeezed into its somewhat confined quarters.

I can give you countless examples of this, and I have spent several years researching it as a journalist. But let me give you an example from my own family. One of my brothers in law, who diligently and with considerable sacrifice, working long hours, put himself through school in order to learn IT. He worked with his cousin who established a computer networking business that did all right in the beginning but was killed off during the economic crisis of the Mejia administration. Since then, my brother in law has not been able to find any other IT work, despite his solid experience and his making the rounds of all the companies. In addition, because I know people at various companies, I tried to get him in to a few of these, because employment here is not a matter of merit, it depends on who you know. Now this guy, who has found various means to stay alive, maintains the family "bar," and does odd jobs whenever he can, has seriously been considering emigrating "con machete" because this marginal existence, which is a strain on the family, (and a disgrace to him as well because he is an independent, hardworking and dignified sort), a constant source of nagging worry and despair, is just too frustrating and self defeating. It is a vicious circle with no exit. This is not to say that emigrating would necessarily solve his problem. He is not going to get IT work over there, and I have talked to him about this, but it is a bit of a carrot and stick situation: the carrot appears so sweet, and the stick is constantly flagellating you.

Now I dont deny that there are in fact people who do all right here and decide to leave, because the siren call of the states involves more than just an "answer" to one's economic deprivation. Many many people here feel that they dont count for anything if they dont head to NYC and try to make it there, just as in the song, "If I can make it there, I can make it anywhere," -- and there is the lure of the excitement, the big city, the fast life. But most of the people on that line outside the consulate are there out of exigent need.

I will give you another example. My Father in law: a construction worker from Maimon who owns a few buildings and always eked out a decent enough living decided to head to NYC. Why? It seems that he fits your definition perfectly. Two reasons, a bit muddled: first, he needed more cash, and he wasnt generating enough for his needs. His daughter was about to start college, and he didnt have enough money to cover the bills. Plus, he wanted, like many people, to give NYC a try, and see if he could make it there. Well he has ended up working in construction illegally, waiting on streetcorners for contractors to hire him at very low wages. And he is trapped. He needs the cash, but he barely makes enough to cover his expenses there. However, he does manage too pay his daughter's expenses, barely. On the one hand, and I think he has come to realize this, he probably shouldnt have bothered to go because he really didnt think the matter over fully and the situation sucks; but on the other hand, he still has a serious cash flow problem and how is he going to fix that when he returns?

 

[Talldrink]

Snuffy, although I understand your statements, I also feel that you are being a bit critical. My mother also left my brother and me behind for one year. It ONLY took her one year - we were lucky. It took one of my aunts over 5 years to bring her kids over. This was 20 years ago, when the waiting was only a few months long - where now it is years long instead.

I honestly do not know what I would be doing in DR if my mother did not bring me to the States. I dont think I have the balls to get on a yola or even go into Immigration with fake papers. However, I now have kids of my own, and if I had to do it - I would - all for the betterment of their lives.

I do think that some of the cultural beliefs Dominican have are screwed up. I dont understand the thought of moving to the States, living a miserable life here to send all the money back to DR and build there... Meanwhile, the kids are being raised here and eventually will make their way here. To take them go back to fulfill a dream the parents had is unfair once you have uprooted them in the first place. My mother moved back to DR - I stayed here in the States. I guess thats another thread altogether...

My point to Snuffy is that it is HARD living in DR without any additional help (i.e. Dollars or Euros) and not knowing where the next peso will come from. All they want is to provide to their kids - somehow.

 

[Snuffy]

Well in the cases I pointed out........these families are not hungry, have a home, and family members have jobs. You Talldrink, could have easily gone to school and got a job doing something. A tall attractive woman like yourself would do fine here. But you would probably still dream of the USA, the land of millk and honey....I mean money.

Let us agree as one poster said.........it is best to discuss this ""honestly"" among family members with a realistic understanding of what can be expected. Each case is different.

But on average the majority of Domincans going abroad do not find the fortune they envision. My primary point is that the gamble may not be worth the sacrifice.

Best Of Luck to all those who try!

 

[Rick Snyder]

After reading this thread from the OP to present I think I will intervene and apply my thoughts and observations.

Once again as in most matters of controversy and habits that are detrimental within this country, and others, I believe the problem can be labeled to a lack of education. Child psychology and child rearing professionals have done numerous studies and reports through the years to give the proven options and guidelines for the proper and or best way to raise children. Be it due to a lack of radios, televisions or the fact that the necessary programs are not broadcasted by these medias in this country and the failure to properly educate in the school system those child rearing options that plays an important role in the way children are raised in this country. Passing children off to be looked after by other family members, the continuous support offered by the extended family to the same outreaching family members, the placement of too many people within a single dwelling, and a host of other learned traits have all played a major role in the sui generic culture of this and many other Latino countries. This is the way it is and has been for hundreds of years.

Having been raised in a country where decent education is plentiful and the word from the experts is easily disseminated to the public allows a lot of us to do that which is proper in the raising of our children. Because a Dominican woman or man does something which is due to the inbreeding of detrimental characteristics plays against your scope of what is morally correct does not make them a bad person. It may in fact indicate bad parenting in the eyes of those of us that can differentiate between good and bad but to the people that know no other way it seems to be the right thing to do at the time and for that I will not sit as the moral judge over them. I may try to explain the proven possible effect their decision may have on their children because of their decided action but because of my being an outsider and the fact that so many other people have done it before makes the possibility of changing their minds rather useless. But I will try.

There are those Dominicans that seem to know the proper way to administer the proper skills in parenting but in comparison to the overall population they seem to represent a small minority. What is the reason for this? I believe it is due to a lack of education.

Rick

 

[miguel]

True!

Snuffy, although I understand your statements, I also feel that you are being a bit critical. My mother also left my brother and me behind for one year. It ONLY took her one year - we were lucky. It took one of my aunts over 5 years to bring her kids over. This was 20 years ago, when the waiting was only a few months long - where now it is years long instead.

I honestly do not know what I would be doing in DR if my mother did not bring me to the States. I dont think I have the balls to get on a yola or even go into Immigration with fake papers. However, I now have kids of my own, and if I had to do it - I would - all for the betterment of their lives.

See, this is what some people don't understand. Those that are looking from afar can not understand that most of these people DO NOT have another option.

Some seem to think that it's an easy decision when in fact it's not.

I said that I was going to "cut down" on my personal issues here but I will post this just for those that still do not understand what I and others are saying:

My aunt "Milagros" and her sister "Guya", back in the early 70's where having a miserable time in the DR. They both had 4 kids and were "up to here" with bills and were not able to support their kids. Their ex-husband were good for nothing, no help from them at all. The only help they had was the little money that my mom and their other siblings were sending from the US. Very little money since they also had responsabilities.

My grandma told them to go to the US and join their other siblings, for a better life and that she would take care of their kids.

"Guya" would not hear of it. "I would never leave my kids, I rather we eat nothing". Time and time again she was reminded that her kids needed her to make a sacrifice. She was reminded that it was just for a little while. "No way in hell", she would say. Time and time again she was reminded that the kids had no opportunities in the DR. All they knew was misery.

"Milagros" "played" with the idea for weeks. She would cry all the time because she knew that it was a hard thing to do. But she knew that it was harder seeing her kids suffer. She could not take it anymore and decided to leave to the US. "Guya" decided to stay in the DR.

"Milagros" came to live with her relatives. She worked like a maniac. She had an "agenda". Her "agenda" was to bring her kids to live here. She saw all the opportunities.

Within 3 years, "Milagros" and a relative flew to the DR to pick up her 4 kids and brought them to the US to live.

Now, care to know what happened to her kids and "Guya's" kids:

"Milagros'" kids:

One is a vice president of a major book publishing company. The man makes more money than God, lol.

One is a high ranking officer with over 30 years of service in the US Army, an adviser on delicate "things" (let's just leave it at that), a pilot trainer and engineer.

One is a detective with over 25 years of service.

One owns his own printing companies and owns a few car washes in NY.

Nowadays, "Dona Milagros" lives a very lavish life provided by her 4 kids. She owns homes, cars, has plenty of money in the bank and her kids would not let her work another day after they were able to support her 100%. Now she is "cashing" in on the rewards. Would she do it again, as she would say "Lo haria 30 veces otra vez si fuese necesario". What great and sweet old lady, un amor.

"Guya's" kids:

One is working at the airport making about 6,000 pesos a month.

One have not worked for about 4 years. Living "arrimao" in a relative's house.

One drives a rented taxi and has about 7 kids "en la calle"

One is a "Ingeniero Civil" who have not been able to work at his profession, for 2 years, after being "let go" from his previous job. Working as a mechanic helper.

None of them own a car, a home and do not live in a nice neighborhood.

Now, all "Guya" says is that she regrets not leaving to the US when she had the chance.

Now, all "Milagros" says is that she thanks God for helping her make the decision to leave.

Bottom line, people make sacrifices, for their kids, all the time. SOME would not leave their kids behind only to see their kids amount to nothing and SOME would leave them behind knowing that even if they ALL suffer a bit, when all is said and done, the rewards would be greater.

 

[macocael]

Well said Miguel.

 

[LOPTKA]

Miguel, I agree with you completely. If we are not in their shoes who are we to judge them. My 2 sister in laws both came here ahead of their kids, worked almost 16 hour days to get ahead and when able to, sent for their kids. None of those kids are any worse off for it. Now that kids are here they work regular hours. As to the post about uncle molesting kids etc. that could happen whether mother there or not.

 

[miguel]

Thanks!

Miguel, I agree with you completely. If we are not in their shoes who are we to judge them. My 2 sister in laws both came here ahead of their kids, worked almost 16 hour days to get ahead and when able to, sent for their kids. None of those kids are any worse off for it. Now that kids are here they work regular hours. As to the post about uncle molesting kids etc. that could happen whether mother there or not.

You said the same thing I have been trying to say: "if you are not in their shoes, who are we to judge".

I am VERY passionate about this topic. Very, since my brothers and I are product of a great, GREAAAT mother you had no other option than to leave us behind for a bit.

When I wrote someone write that it was an act of "selfishness", I just count not believe that someone who has not been in that position can make such an statement.

That word hit a very sensitive nerve because even to this day, I remember the daily phone calls from my mom, crying her eyes out. I remember being told that she lost over 30 pounds because she was depressed all the time and did not cared to eat. All she did was work and work. Sometimes 3 jobs. Sleeping 5-6 hours was out of the question since she it took her hours to fall sleep because of the crying. Waking up at 4am to go to her first job was a norm to her. She worke ALL types of jobs, she did not care as long as she was saving to bring her kids.

Now, don't forget that it was much difficult for her since she did not know the language, the culture and had never had a job before.

All I can say, without getting "misty" (schit, too late, lol) is that she did a tremendous jobs. The education that this wonderful lady gave us so great that until the day she passed, she knew that we understood her sacrifice.

Now, when my mother was still able to work, WE did not allowed her to work anymore. ALL of us took over. WE did EVERYTHING for her, EVERYTHING. If she wanted to go to the DR to visit, DONE, if she wanted a house in the DR, I bought her one, if she wanted to travel anywhere in the world, we provided that for her, she wanted to take a cruise somewhere, done. When mami passed, she had no worries whatsoever, none. WE ALL took care of her everyday life, bills, rent, spending money (which she would save most of it so she could buy us gifts), everyhing.

Now, if she was selfish and NOT leave when she left, who knows what would had happened to us.

To some of you she was selfish, to me and my brothers she did an act of love and no matter how SOME of you slice it, the opinion that matters is how WE (my brohters and I) feel about it

Btw, DO NOT think for one second that my story is unique, I know of many Dominicans that after their mom made the same sacrifice, that they were treated the same way as we treated out mom. My aunt is another example, among many.

Now, enough of the ramblings, way too painful!.

 

[Talldrink]

I meant to comment on the molesting remark Snuffy made as well. That can happen anywhere in the world with or without the birth mother or father being around. That is a bigger problem than migration and trying to make it in another country. I think these are separate issues...

BTW - Someone in La Zona (i.e. Haina working in a factory) makes about $7,000 in one month - that is the equivalent to about $200. Someone in the US making minimum wage can make that in less than one week AFTER taxes. How can you get ahead like that in the DR??

 

[Snuffy]

Miguel...I don't think the majority of dominicans have the success your mother did. I am sure your mother is a fine lady. I am sure she did what she thought was right and I am sure that the sisters (BOTH) did what they thought was right also. Peace

hmmmm

I can't help but ask (at the risk of ****ing you off even more

no, never mind. Take Care