Haiti’s political crisis needs to be tackled by the international community, says expert

NanSanPedro

Nickel with tin plating
Apr 12, 2019
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Nan - I am pretty sure that you were among the Good Guys - and I have it on the authority of a friend who was one of the last Peace Corps workers in Haiti - when the Peace Corps pulled out in 2005 - that without the Christian missionaries she believed that Haiti would essentially collapse.

As you have perceived, I am not a fan of religious missionaries - not of any ilk - This entire hemisphere would have been better off without Columbus coming "with a sword to conquer in the name of Christ" (which is oxymoronic, imho) and following perhaps the earth based religions of the North American indigenous people...

Have never actually met a Christian missionary who was tolerant of pagans - And I am really not such a fan of "the Good Book" which ends pretty badly - again - imho...

But - I am a huge fan of Jesus - I just don't see much of him in his followers.

but - well - it is what it is...
We probably have a lot of common ground. There are many times I wonder if Christians understand Christianity.

Again, as a small potato, I did not see anything bad. I heard rumors about MINISTUAH while they were there. That's about it.
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
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I was there for 5 years. I saw it first hand.

Fonkoze is a great organization with their microloans. Teach someone to fend for themselves, not give them handouts.
I respect your "boots on the ground" experiences.
You saw a universal income experiment create dependencies in Haiti ❓
Or did you see a micro loan program work and therefore you have formed your opinion about grants verses loans from your observations❓

Either way, I am not impressed with the current way international aid is being handled in Haiti
It is my opinion,
that international from governments and large organizations are helping.
 

La Profe_1

Moderator: Daily Headline News, Travel & Tourism
Oct 15, 2003
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Please remember that discussion of religion is not permitted. It must stop now..
 
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mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Maybe I am...
Educate me.
Because I am absolutely certain you are missing the science behind this issue‼️

"In 2010, a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences analyzed information from half a million U.S. residents and concluded that once people begin making more than $75,000 a year, the relationship between more money and greater happiness begins to level off. Beyond that point, any bonus — whether it’s a dollar or a million dollars — does relatively little to significantly alter happiness in the long run.

And plenty of studies have found that extra payment, more than simply having no effect, can end up actually reducing the intrinsic motivation we would otherwise feel for an activity that we find interesting and rewarding."


I have now presented two different articles that show payment after certain amount provides no motivation.
And that this does not just apply to a "burger-flipper".
Now I respect you opinion.
Do you respect the science that I have presented...
And how I have related it to Haiti ❓
I know plenty of Americans who live WELL below $75k and are perfectly content. And some folks w/ incomes over $150k who are not. Honestly very little from the US simply can be applied to Haiti.

I agree with Nan that cash transfers are NOT the answer - certainly not in Haiti - just as Remittances - which are about 1/3 of the annual source of income for both the DR & Haiti - do very little to increase productivity - they help folks survive, sure. But according to my best Haitian friend, the goal of Many Haitian families is to have enough children in the hopes that one will "escape" to another country to be able to send home money.

I know more than one Dominican who has a relative who has worked in essential sweat shop conditions in NYC and sent home money - but makes it sound as if The Bronx is heaven on earth - which those of us who have been there, certainly know it is not.

Fonkoze has a very sophisticated operation in helping folks get out of poverty - really ideal - Paso a Paso - https://fonkoze.org/why-microfinance
 
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Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
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Aid from governments are helping? but you are not impressed by how international aid is being handled?
I'm not following....
My bad...
Som tines I don red o spel 2 gud ‼️

Either way, I am not impressed with the current way international aid is being handled in Haiti
It is my opinion,
that international aid from governments and large organizations (with a "project-based" mentality) are NOT helping.

Haiti’s political crisis needs to be tackled by the international community, says expert​

Title of the thread.
I disagree with the expert, that the international community should get involved.
Let the people of Haiti work it out for themselves.
Haiti needs a stable political system before a economic recover can start.
There is a long but uncertain relationship between the public infrastructure and private investment.
But there can be no investment in the public infrastructure without a stable political system.

Even the problem with humanitarian aid is that in a chaotic political structure it can do more harm than good.
When I used to be involved in social work it was standard policy to secure the area from danger before sending in the first responders.
You had to go get the person out if you had a "man down".
You did not seen the medical personnel into a dangerous situation.
Haiti is mo def a "man down" situation.
The people of Haiti need to secure the area before anyone sends in help.

After the area is secured you cannot expect that ONLY micro loans will get people through.
How do you pull yourself up by your "bootstraps" with no boots❓
 
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johne

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Jun 28, 2003
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Please remember that discussion of religion is not permitted. It must stop now..
I agree as they are the rules of this forum board and I respect that. But, permit me to say it's very hard to discuss the Haiti story without discussing Christian missionaries. Or, for that matter Voodism which is a form of religion. I know that sometimes discussions here on this forum have a way of taking another fork in the road (WOW! John is that an understatement) but I think there should be "some" slack because religion or "help" from religious groups is an integral part of their ancient history and what is part of their near history.
Just saying.
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
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elizabetheames.blogspot.com
It wasn't my intention to be patronizing at all.

"As in - not going to bother to engage in some intellectual sparing over the origins of the AmerIndians...
I have lived on Cherokee land.. I have been to PowWows and know far more about the history of AmerIndians than you do..
Doubt you know really very much at all about the Trail of Tears, the Western Cherokee Nation, the story of Pstaly.."


And I have lived for a while among the descendants of Aztecs/Nahuatls in Mexico and Mayans/K'iche in Guatemala. So no, your Amerindian knowledge doesn't really towers above mine's. Incidentally, you don't seem to acknowledge the Beaver Wars hmmm (granted, the French took part there, but they were mainly auxiliaries to one of the Amerind parties, the main blows were among themselves).

Yes, I want to return to our corners, but on the understanding that every party on this island, historical or current, have had an agency in the current state of affairs. Let's just leave the "noble savage" glasses at home now, shall we?
You may not have intended to be "patronizing" - but addressing a woman that you do not know - who does not know you - as "my dear" - is
just FYI
 

La Profe_1

Moderator: Daily Headline News, Travel & Tourism
Oct 15, 2003
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If this thread continues to go into religion and wildly off topic posts I will lock it.

Last warning!
 

Russell

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2017
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My bad...
Som tines I don red o spel 2 gud ‼️

Either way, I am not impressed with the current way international aid is being handled in Haiti
It is my opinion,
that international aid from governments and large organizations (with a "project-based" mentality) are NOT helping.

Haiti’s political crisis needs to be tackled by the international community, says expert​

Title of the thread.
I disagree with the expert, that the international community should get involved.
Let the people of Haiti work it out for themselves.
Haiti needs a stable political system before a economic recover can start.
There is a long but uncertain relationship between the public infrastructure and private investment.
But there can be no investment in the public infrastructure without a stable political system.

Even the problem with humanitarian aid is that in a chaotic political structure it can do more harm than good.
When I used to be involved in social work it was standard policy to secure the area from danger before sending in the first responders.
You had to go get the person out if you had a "man down".
You did not seen the medical personnel into a dangerous situation.
Haiti is mo def a "man down" situation.
The people of Haiti need to secure the area before anyone sends in help.

After the area is secured you cannot expect that ONLY micro loans will get people through.
How do you pull yourself up by your "bootstraps" with no boots❓
Tim Schwartz in his book Travesty in Haiti. Gave more credit to Narco Lords for improving conditions in Haiti than International Aid.
That "Sleeping giant" ...sleeps no more... at present Narcos are the ones with most control of Haiti.
Other than that the options are not good.And no I do not have a solution. I only wish i did.
 

johne

Silver
Jun 28, 2003
4,615
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Another Must Read book on Haiti specifically

I ordered it today as it sounds like an interesting read. Del'd to NY for $6.50 used.
 

cavok

Silver
Jun 16, 2014
5,233
895
113
Maybe I am...
Educate me.
Because I am absolutely certain you are missing the science behind this issue‼️

"In 2010, a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences analyzed information from half a million U.S. residents and concluded that once people begin making more than $75,000 a year, the relationship between more money and greater happiness begins to level off. Beyond that point, any bonus — whether it’s a dollar or a million dollars — does relatively little to significantly alter happiness in the long run.

And plenty of studies have found that extra payment, more than simply having no effect, can end up actually reducing the intrinsic motivation we would otherwise feel for an activity that we find interesting and rewarding."


I have now presented two different articles that show payment after certain amount provides no motivation.
And that this does not just apply to a "burger-flipper".
Now I respect you opinion.
Do you respect the science that I have presented...
And how I have related it to Haiti ❓
Somehow we seem to have drifted from "working harder" to "being happier". I agree in general that money can't buy happiness.

Consider "piecemeal work": the more items/tasks you make/do, the more money you earn(the harder you work, the more money you make. Money incentivizes these workers to work harder and be more productive. Or, look at union workers when a pay cut is proposed - they go on strike. They're unhappy! These are real world examples - not just studies. I think we've drifted off-topic, so I'll let you have the last word.

"Money can't buy you happiness, but it does bring a more pleasant form of misery" - Spike Milligan
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
1,148
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Somehow we seem to have drifted from "working harder" to "being happier". I agree in general that money can't buy happiness.

Consider "piecemeal work": the more items/tasks you make/do, the more money you earn(the harder you work, the more money you make. Money incentivizes these workers to work harder and be more productive. Or, look at union workers when a pay cut is proposed - they go on strike. They're unhappy! These are real world examples - not just studies. I think we've drifted off-topic, so I'll let you have the last word.

"Money can't buy you happiness, but it does bring a more pleasant form of misery" - Spike Milligan
"In one classic study from the 1970s, for example, psychologist Edward Deci recruited students to volunteer as headline writers for their university’s newspaper, with one group working on Tuesdays and the other on Fridays. As they brainstormed headlines in their weekly meetings, a “supervisor” secretly recorded the time it took them to come up with each one. After a few weeks, members of the Tuesday group were told the paper had found the budget to pay them 50 cents a headline, but that they shouldn’t mention anything to the Friday group, since there wasn’t enough money to go around.

So what happened to their performance once money was involved? In the beginning, both groups took an average of 22 minutes to write a headline. Over time, the Friday workers — the ones who weren’t paid — got faster and faster, and by the end of the experiment they had cut their time nearly in half. The workers in the Tuesday group, on the other hand, never saw any significant improvement: Even though it was in their interest to write as many headlines as they could in the time allotted, they still took at least 20 minutes per headline up until the end. What’s more, most of them stopped coming to meetings sometime over the course of the study, while most of the unpaid Tuesday group kept turning up reliably every week to work for free."

"In a 1980 study on the subject, psychologists found that while rewards reduce motivation when they don’t depend on a person’s ability, they lead to increased motivation when they’re based on skill. In other words, paying people extra for their abilities may inspire them to work harder, but paying them for the hard work itself can actually be detrimental."

Piecemeal work lets the individual decide how much they are going to make.
It does not pay any more.
It is the same as commission work
But many do not like to work on commission.
It pays to read a article you are going to comment on.

Your example is weak and does not apply to Haiti.
You need the work in the first place.
We are still on-topic.
Your serve 🎾 ‼️
 

rfp

Gold
Jul 5, 2010
1,402
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"In a country where 59% of the population lives on less than $2.41 per day, the (redacted) could have simply given Haitians the money. Studies have shown that such “unconditional cash transfers” can be a more effective way to increase income and access to education and housing than many types of traditional “project-based” aid. But policies like cash transfers would have undermined the approach to aid in which rich countries simply prescribe “solutions” for poor ones, rather than allowing people to take their futures into their own hands.


"And if you want to stay rich, create a program with OPM that allows you to take advantage of the less fortunate economically" - unknown economic imperialist.
Agreed 100 % !! I will challenge you though on the fact that its UN backed NGOs and not foreign policy of more developed countries causing the issues.
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
1,148
430
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Agreed 100 % !! I will challenge you though on the fact that its UN backed NGOs and not foreign policy of more developed countries causing the issues.
How many paces bro ❓
How about we skip that part and I will stipulate to most if not all foreign aid...is causing the issues❓
Is that enough to prevent an affront to your honor my good man❓
 

rfp

Gold
Jul 5, 2010
1,402
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How many paces bro ❓
How about we skip that part and I will stipulate to most if not all foreign aid...is causing the issues❓
Is that enough to prevent an affront to your honor my good man❓
As an American patriot the term imperialism makes me ill. We are the worlds best in every regard and will go down as the worlds most benevolent super power/empire.

When people hear imperialism they think of the tired narrative of American involvement, what we see in Haiti are wolves in sheep's clothing.

UN enabled and sponsored NGOs are evil
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
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As an American patriot the term imperialism makes me ill.
What I always find curious is how certain people are only concerned with the speech from one side of the isle.
You see imperialism is the proper word.
When used to describe certain actions by governments.
You see it used in history studies all the time.
So be ill or put me on ignore.

"Responding to near-anarchy in the Republic of Haiti, the United States occupied the nation from 1915 to 1934. During this time, they installed puppet governments, ran the economy, military and police, and for all intents and purposes were in absolute control of the country. Although this rule was relatively benign, it was unpopular with both the Haitians and the citizens of the United States and American troops and personnel were withdrawn in 1934."


No offence intended...
We are the worlds best in every regard and will go down as the worlds most benevolent super power/empire.
I completely disagree with this evaluation.
We are allowed to to that here.
When people hear imperialism they think of the tired narrative of American involvement, what we see in Haiti are wolves in sheep's clothing.

UN enabled and sponsored NGOs are evil
I fail to understand why the truth and plan spoken words are offensive to you and make you sick.

Story
I went to a university in my country of origin
The university had a offensive mascot
There was a contest to name a new mascot
The name that won among the students was:
"The Robberbarons"
It honored the founder our univeristy
Because that is what he was.
Rejected by the board of regents (An original group of Mother crunchers)
And we became a boring color.

If we are going to talk about the history and problems of Haiti imperialism is part of the discussion.
Take solace as an American patriot that your country was not the only one involved or to blame.
 
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rfp

Gold
Jul 5, 2010
1,402
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What I always find curious is how certain people are only concerned with the speech from one side of the isle.
You see imperialism is the proper word.
When used to describe certain actions by governments.
You see it used in history studies all the time.
So be ill or put me on ignore.

"Responding to near-anarchy in the Republic of Haiti, the United States occupied the nation from 1915 to 1934. During this time, they installed puppet governments, ran the economy, military and police, and for all intents and purposes were in absolute control of the country. Although this rule was relatively benign, it was unpopular with both the Haitians and the citizens of the United States and American troops and personnel were withdrawn in 1934."


No offence intended...

I completely disagree with this evaluation.
We are allowed to to that here.

I fail to understand why the truth and plan spoken words are offensive to you and make you sick.

Story
I went to a university in my country of origin
The university had a offensive mascot
There was a contest to name a new mascot
The name that won among the students was:
"The Robberbarons"
It honored the founder our univeristy
Because that is what he was.
Rejected by the board of regents (An original group of Mother crunchers)
And we became a boring color.

If we are going to talk about the history and problems of Haiti imperialism is part of the discussion.
Take solace as an American patriot that your country was not the only one involved or to blame.

I can assure you that the imperialistic years were golden times in Haiti

The current ills that you blame on imperialism are due to evil NGO and UN sponsored and supported groups. We all agree that Haiti suffers as a result of foreign involvement. It is intellectually lazy to throw the word "imperialism" with its negative implications when the blame falls directly at the feet of "woke" approved institutions.
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,710
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When people hear imperialism they think of the tired narrative of American involvement, what we see in Haiti are wolves in sheep's clothing.
More like lazy and haphazard. If you are going to do imperialism, do it in a solid and hard, boots on the ground, no nonsense given or taken, type. Like it used to be done in olden times. The current situation is an hypocritical and false one, where locals are given an appearance of independence, but none of its substance. Another way to describe it is, to not do anything, but also preventing others from doing something there.
 

rfp

Gold
Jul 5, 2010
1,402
135
63
What I always find curious is how certain people are only concerned with the speech from one side of the isle.
You see imperialism is the proper word.
When used to describe certain actions by governments.
You see it used in history studies all the time.
So be ill or put me on ignore.

"Responding to near-anarchy in the Republic of Haiti, the United States occupied the nation from 1915 to 1934. During this time, they installed puppet governments, ran the economy, military and police, and for all intents and purposes were in absolute control of the country. Although this rule was relatively benign, it was unpopular with both the Haitians and the citizens of the United States and American troops and personnel were withdrawn in 1934."


No offence intended...

I completely disagree with this evaluation.
We are allowed to to that here.

I fail to understand why the truth and plan spoken words are offensive to you and make you sick.

Story
I went to a university in my country of origin
The university had a offensive mascot
There was a contest to name a new mascot
The name that won among the students was:
"The Robberbarons"
It honored the founder our univeristy
Because that is what he was.
Rejected by the board of regents (An original group of Mother crunchers)
And we became a boring color.

If we are going to talk about the history and problems of Haiti imperialism is part of the discussion.
Take solace as an American patriot that your country was not the only one involved or to blame.
No offense homie, but if you were poor all your life and were able to attend university it was an act of benevolence. Why bite the hand that feeds you ?
How bitter and jaded are quota based and subsidized students that they would attack the founding father of their educational institute ?

I can guarantee that the majority of the students who were involved in that type of protest have gotten nowhere in life.

I know you are successful and have demonstrated impulse control and made good moves but you have to agree that people won't get ahead, all they want to do is be angry and live in the past.

Stunting for the gram on the weekend and being woke all week wont cut it in 2021's globalized and competitive world.