Haiti poised for Civil War?

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Jarabacoa largely became in existence by people fleeing the Haitian army. Mainly from La Vega, but also Moca. Jarabacoa was easier to defend.
More than easier to defend, the Haitians never went to the mountains, but neither did the Spanish. The Northern Mountain Range that separates Puerto Plata from the valley is the main reason the Haitians never went there. They did go to al, the towns in the valley to kill the inhabitants, loot the towns and finish off by burning them. Even towns like San Francisco de Macorís, which is not on the route to Haiti from Santo Domingo was attacked and destroyed, since an offshoot of the Haitian army went there precisely to commit that. Everyone in the countryside along the routes taken by the Haitians was also killed and even farm animals like livestock and chickens were killed, producing plants like banana trees were cut. They basically applied a scorch earth policy on their way back to Haiti that spanned from outside Santo Domingo to Dajabón. Most of the population lived in the triangle Santiago - Bonao - San Francisco de Macorís.

The population was probably doomned hsd Dessalines been able to gain access into Santo Domingo. The fact that he took revenge on the civilians on his way back appears that it was his intention to first gain access of SD and then subject the entire Dominican population to a massacre. His inability to gain control of the eastern side prevent the extermination of the Dominicans. Otherwise it would had happened and many other things would had never existed, whether is Pichardo or Dolores themselves all the way to DR1, the sons/daughters and the Dominican spouses of many DR1ers that have children with Dominicans; heck, most DR1 expats would probably not even be on Hispaniola right now.
 
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Naked_Snake

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More than easier to defend, the Haitians never went to the mountains, but neither did the Spanish. The Northern Mountain Range that separates Puerto Plata from the valley is the main reason the Haitians never went there. They did go to al, the towns in the valley to kill the inhabitants, loot the towns and finish off by burning them. Even towns like San Francisco de Macorís, which is not on the route to Haiti from Santo Domingo was attacked and destroyed, since an offshoot of the Haitian army went there precisely to commit that. Everyone in the countryside along the routes taken by the Haitians was also killed and even farm animals like livestock and chickens were killed, producing plants like banana trees were cut. They basically applied a scorch earth policy on their way back to Haiti that spanned from outside Santo Domingo to Dajabón. Most of the population lived in the triangle Santiago - Bonao - San Francisco de Macorís.

The population was probably doomned hsd Dessalines been able to gain access into Santo Domingo. The fact that he took revenge on the civilians on his way back appears that it was his intention to first gain access of SD and then subject the entire Dominican population to a massacre. His inability to gain control of the eastern side prevent the extermination of the Dominicans. Otherwise it would had happened and many other things would had never existed, whether is Pichardo or Dolores themselves all the way to DR1, the sons/daughters and the Dominican spouses of many DR1ers that have children with Dominicans; heck, most DR1 expats would probably not even be on Hispaniola right now.
That's the darker side of the French revolutionary/Enlightenment ideal. It introduced the justification for extermination of "enemies of the state" in the Western political discourse. From there to the Nazi extermination camps of the XXth century and the Soviet gulag archipielago in Siberia was a continuing slippery slope.
 

Big

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its amazing how things change. I doubt the Haitians could collect a brigade of men to challenge the Palm Beach P.D
 

Naked_Snake

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its amazing how things change. I doubt the Haitians could collect a brigade of men to challenge the Palm Beach P.D
A century of non-stop civil war among them would do that to any young nation. Order and stability stretches can be counted with the fingers of one hand in their political history, the Boyer reign being one of those.
 
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melphis

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The last time there was a pledge was after the earthquake in 2010. It amounted to billions of dollars and most of it never made it to Haiti. It didn't disappear because it was stolen, it simply was pledged and never done.
That's exactly correct. Less than a billion was actually sent and the majority of it was swindled away by the the Haitian government and world helpers like the Clinton Foundation.

The reason the rest never came was anyone with 2 brain cells knew it would never reach the people in need just corrupt politicians and greedy corporate pigs. Very sad but that's what happened.
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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That's the darker side of the French revolutionary/Enlightenment ideal. It introduced the justification for extermination of "enemies of the state" in the Western political discourse. From there to the Nazi extermination camps of the XXth century and the Soviet gulag archipielago in Siberia was a continuing slippery slope.

Nope!
This was a cultural thing for Africans well into today. Tribes will exterminate any enemies to the last born and burn/loot all on their wake to erase the others.
This is still true today in Haiti, as the mobs kill without mercy anyone marked as an enemy.
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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That's exactly correct. Less than a billion was actually sent and the majority of it was swindled away by the the Haitian government and world helpers like the Clinton Foundation.

The reason the rest never came was anyone with 2 brain cells knew it would never reach the people in need just corrupt politicians and greedy corporate pigs. Very sad but that's what happened.


Correct!
Why send more if each penny sent got swindled to begin with.
This is the level to which Haiti is held until now.
It’s only a matter of time until a hothead declares himself ruler of Haiti and treats the national treasury as his personal account, once again...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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its amazing how things change. I doubt the Haitians could collect a brigade of men to challenge the Palm Beach P.D

They do have the weapons, but the military skills are nowhere to be found.
They are only strong against the weak and few from those that can give them a fight for their lives.

I learned long ago one thing: There’s nothing in Haiti to die for.
Unless a full country take over takes place, it’s doomed since 1804.
 
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melphis

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Correct!
Why send more if each penny sent got swindled to begin with.
This is the level to which Haiti is held until now.
It’s only a matter of time until a hothead declares himself ruler of Haiti and treats the national treasury as his personal account, once again...
I would agree if there was a national treasury. That country has been pillaged from within for so long I doubt they could raise the funds for a good keg party.

And besides, who would go.
 

Chellow

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Jul 27, 2006
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And 2/3 of the population left for Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Venezuela. It must had been the greatest demographic destruction in Latin America, except with maybe what happened in Paraguay. There most were killed, at least with Dominicans most were alive but simply left the island.
I know there was an exodus. I wonder how many did leave?
 

Naked_Snake

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Nope!
This was a cultural thing for Africans well into today. Tribes will exterminate any enemies to the last born and burn/loot all on their wake to erase the others.
This is still true today in Haiti, as the mobs kill without mercy anyone marked as an enemy.
You seem to forget that both Toussaint and Rigaud carried out the revolution by holding the "c'est une et indivisible" and "Liberté, egalité" battle cries. Those didnt come from the African bush, believe me, nor the "contrarevolutionary/reactionary" epithets for political/ethnic enemies. And let's not forget about the role of Jacobins coming from the metrópolis like Sonthonax, who did everything in his power to fan up the flames against his own white colonial brethen (incidentally, Sonthonax's memory is revered by many Haitians from the intellectual classes).
 
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USA DOC

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Juan Bosch, running on behalf of the PRD in 1963, became the first democratically elected official in the country's history. However

José María Cabral was president from August 22, 1866 until January 3, 1868 was the first elected by universal suffrage.​

Bob if this is real democracy how does a Independent run for President?...and how does this country hold the politicos accountable, you know like in the punta catalina affair?.... those questions are easily answered ...no one does.........
 

NanSanPedro

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You seem to forget that both Toussaint and Rigaud carried out the revolution by holding the "c'est une et indivisible" and "Liberté, egalité" battle cries. Those didnt come from the African bush, believe me, nor the "contrarevolutionary/reactionary" epithets for political/ethnic enemies. And let's not forget about the role of Jacobins coming from the metrópolis like Sonthonax, who did everything in his power to fan up the flames against his own white colonial brethen (incidentally, Sonthonax's memory is revered by many Haitians from the intellectual classes).
Never heard of him until now. Thanks, NS!
 
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bob saunders

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Bob if this is real democracy how does a Independent run for President?...and how does this country hold the politicos accountable, you know like in the punta catalina affair?.... those questions are easily answered ...no one does.........
Do you think, based on the recent evidence the large USA is a proper democracy. Can a real independent run for president there, yes technically. Think Solyndra, a far more expensive boondoggle that Punta Catalina. The DR is far from perfect but I think their vote counting is more accurate and honest than some countries.
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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The bigger the “democracy” the larger the corruption.
Here is a few millions...
There? Billions and trillions...
Think the Euro was the Bitcoin of its time. Countries surrendered their only means of economic control in favor of community control.

Corruption is a byproduct of Democracy.
If there’s none, then it’s a socialist system, not a democracy.

In a socialist economy, the system is geared towards the people’s best well-being.
In a democracy, greed and profit are rewarded absent entitlements funded by the state.

Look at some of the best EU member nations.
If they are doing great, it means they are tilted more towards socialism than not.

People confuse socialism and communism, but they are two different systems.

The DR is a socialist democracy. Each year it tilts more in that column, hence corruption is now easily identified unlike before.

In the banking collapse of the DR, nobody still can account for all the billions taken and little to show for collaterals returned to the depositors.

That great was the corruption at the time. Now they can track the money and see were it all went. But still not all corruption is overturned.

The DR is running towards universal healthcare.
Universal schooling, from elementary to college.
Universal food security, including pre-natal.
The rest is a toss up.
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
13,280
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Haiti can’t dig itself out of hole, simply because there’s nothing out of that hole to hold-on to.

Like I said, it needs to be started from scratch.
Provide ID for all people, registry on a national level. Toss French and Kreyol from the schools, and make Spanish official.

From there all else is just new to Haiti.
From scratch.
Build it right and keep it right.

No reason not to achieve food security quickly, by putting the cooperative system in the farms.
Labor is aplenty.

A true national police that covers the entire country. Some 30,000 officers.

911 system. Hospitals. Schools. Colleges. Ports.
Water. Electricity. Waste management.

Ban charcoal and provide subsidy for natural gas.
Plant 🌱 trees. Declare protected areas.
Redo the AI tourism sector, copy Punta Cana.

After that anything is possible in Haiti.
Most poor people own the land they live on and can obtain funding using that land as collateral from true banks.

When security is reignited, the investors from the diaspora will pour right back into Haiti.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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The bigger the “democracy” the larger the corruption.
Here is a few millions...
There? Billions and trillions...
Think the Euro was the Bitcoin of its time. Countries surrendered their only means of economic control in favor of community control.

Corruption is a byproduct of Democracy.
If there’s none, then it’s a socialist system, not a democracy.

In a socialist economy, the system is geared towards the people’s best well-being.
In a democracy, greed and profit are rewarded absent entitlements funded by the state.

Look at some of the best EU member nations.
If they are doing great, it means they are tilted more towards socialism than not.

People confuse socialism and communism, but they are two different systems.

The DR is a socialist democracy. Each year it tilts more in that column, hence corruption is now easily identified unlike before.

In the banking collapse of the DR, nobody still can account for all the billions taken and little to show for collaterals returned to the depositors.

That great was the corruption at the time. Now they can track the money and see were it all went. But still not all corruption is overturned.

The DR is running towards universal healthcare.
Universal schooling, from elementary to college.
Universal food security, including pre-natal.
The rest is a toss up.
"The DR is a socialist democracy. " That is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a socialist democracy. The government does not own or control the means of production.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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Interesting, I guess this is one of the major detriments of the history of European colonialism. Much of Africa has different ethnic groups being divided over multiple nations. I think the name Haiti originates from Taino origins.
Arawak word meaning land of mountains. Other source says" The name Haiti (or Hayti) comes from the indigenous Taíno language which was the native name[note 2] given to the entire island of Hispaniola to mean, "land of high mountains."[37] The h is silent in French and the ï in Haïti has a diacritical mark used to show that the second vowel is pronounced separately, as in the word naïve."
 

Big

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Apr 24, 2019
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Haiti can’t dig itself out of hole, simply because there’s nothing out of that hole to hold-on to.

Like I said, it needs to be started from scratch.
Provide ID for all people, registry on a national level. Toss French and Kreyol from the schools, and make Spanish official.

From there all else is just new to Haiti.
From scratch.
Build it right and keep it right.

No reason not to achieve food security quickly, by putting the cooperative system in the farms.
Labor is aplenty.

A true national police that covers the entire country. Some 30,000 officers.

911 system. Hospitals. Schools. Colleges. Ports.
Water. Electricity. Waste management.

Ban charcoal and provide subsidy for natural gas.
Plant 🌱 trees. Declare protected areas.
Redo the AI tourism sector, copy Punta Cana.

After that anything is possible in Haiti.
Most poor people own the land they live on and can obtain funding using that land as collateral from true banks.

When security is reignited, the investors from the diaspora will pour right back into Haiti.
Ahhh to dream