Haiti: The Least Developed Country in the Western Hemisphere...

[K-Mel]

K-Mel, are you a professor of history, or is it just a passion?

just askin..you are good..

Thanks Senior Gorgon, not a professor of history just a hobby ( working in Asset Management actually)

 

[bronzeallspice]

Why is Haiti so poor? Lessons for Africa - Panorama - TakingITGlobal

 

[greydread]

Here's a thought -

Strikes me that for 80 years Haiti has been the recipient of 'aid' yet it still struggles - could the 2 points be related?

Aid, on the face of it, has not worked - quite obviously.

Why not try something else?

The simple reason is that aid is an industry and careers and fortunes are at stake - been there, done that, seen it in action, have the names dates and numbers.
As long as there is so much money to be made in aid it will never stop - that is why Haiti cannot get on its feet - because it pays too well to keep it on its knees.

Thank you.

Why doesn't Haiti break it's "aid" addiction? Same reason heroin addicts replace their heroin addictions for methadone addictions. Heroin was developed to "cure" morphine/ laudinum and other opiate addiction and each drug compound developed to "cure" these addictions has become progressively more addictive, just like foreign aid, the opiate of the masses and path to the legitimate return to slavery. This return to slavery is being played out as nations, one after another after another take the needle and will soon be the new normal.


(Jamaica) IMF decimating one country after another - YouTube

 

[PeterInBrat]

Here is an idea for reducing deforestation:

High Quality Sugarcane Bagasse Charcoal Briquette Machine - Buy Sugarcane Bagasse Charcoal Briquette Machine,Charcoal Briquette Machine,Sawdust Charcoal Machine Product on Alibaba.com

Makes standardized charcoal briquettes out of sugar bagasse.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Trujillo also let them in because he was still fighting pushback over the parsley massacre. Geez, you machete some 10,000 Haitians to death and suddenly the world thinks you're a bad guy...

Yeah, but many of you forget the fact that before the massacre (at the "last" border negotiation) the Dominican state (first under Vasquez, and later with Trujillo) had to cede 5,000 kms to the Haitian state, due to the DR lacking enough people to settle the places under dispute in the Central Plateau. Chief among them is the district of La Miel, which is said to contain the most important gold reserves in the island.

Hait?, ?La v?ctima? - DiarioLibre.com

 

[Criss Colon]

I would dearly LOVE to have my Haitian maid deported!!!
I HATE her!!!!
My wife only hired her because she it "Skinny, Ugly,and "Ugly" again!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah, but many of you forget the fact that before the massacre (at the "last" border negotiation) the Dominican state (first under Vasquez, and later with Trujillo) had to cede 5,000 kms to the Haitian state, due to the DR lacking enough people to settle the places under dispute in the Central Plateau. Chief among them is the district of La Miel, which is said to contain the most important gold reserves in the island.

Hait?, ?La v?ctima? - DiarioLibre.com

Good point. Someone posted a map of Hispaniola before and after, it's a startling amount of territory.

Here's an old map from mid 1700s:

 

[PeterInBrat]

Yeah, but many of you forget the fact that before the massacre (at the "last" border negotiation) the Dominican state (first under Vasquez, and later with Trujillo) had to cede 5,000 kms to the Haitian state, due to the DR lacking enough people to settle the places under dispute in the Central Plateau. Chief among them is the district of La Miel, which is said to contain the most important gold reserves in the island.

Hait?, ?La v?ctima? - DiarioLibre.com

Oh, I forgot all about that. That totally justifies massacring thousands of civilians...

 

[Naked_Snake]

Good point. Someone posted a map of Hispaniola before and after, it's a startling amount of territory.

Yeah, it's like half the size of the island of Jamaica, being all the more significant by the fact that it isn't surrounded by the ocean. Although the place is mostly ecologically damaged, specially when we take into account the state of the river Guayamouco, the main river after the Artibonite in that area.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Oh, I forgot all about that. That totally justifies massacring thousands of civilians...

No, I was talking about the justification for his encouraging inmigration. You wouldn't have proposed him to look for settlers among the ones of the rival state, now, would you? Specially considering the fact that the overabundance of landless Haitian peasants in the Central Plateau was what led the DR state to lose sovereignty over most of it in the first place. It's miraculous we have the border where it is now as it is, since the original Haitian claim extended over Dajabon, Monte Cristi, Neyba, Independencia, Pedernales and part of San Juan, stopping at the town of Matayaya over there, and the Guayubin river in the north.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Oh, I forgot all about that. That totally justifies massacring thousands of civilians...

Besides, it's also an answer to gorgon's earlier point. Most foreigners tend to reduce Trujillo's encouragement of European and other inmigration (Japanese) only to the race matter, when the main fact is that the DR was mostly underpeopled vis-a-vis Haiti (according to Franklin Franco Pichardo, the DR population by 1930 was 890,000, while Haiti was over 2 million). A condition that, if persisting over time, could have seriously compromised the DR's sovereignty over most of its territory.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Besides, it's also an answer to gorgon's earlier point. Most foreigners tend to reduce Trujillo's encouragement of European and other inmigration (Japanese) only to the race matter, when the main fact is that the DR was mostly underpeopled vis-a-vis Haiti (according to Franklin Franco Pichardo, the DR population by 1930 was 890,000, while Haiti was over 2 million). A condition that, if persisting over time, could have seriously compromised the DR's sovereignty over most of its territory.

Stop confusing people with the facts.

 

[K-Mel]

Hait?, ?La v?ctima? - DiarioLibre.com

Well interesting article but some remarks need to be done.

" La presencia francesa en la parte oriental de la isla nunca fue legal ni leg?tima"

True that but Spanish presence in the entire island was also illegal. The Tainos did not ask them to come and conquer the island. It was the pope of that time , who I believe had some spanish ancestry who allowed and legalized this theft . Ayiti, Bohio, Quisqueya belonged to the Tainos and other natives groups of that times were the true possessor of the island.

"Aquella ocupaci?n estuvo precedida de ataques e incursiones desde La Tortuga por parte de filibusteros y bucaneros, patrocinados por ingleses, franceses, holandeses y, en menor medida portugueses, como consecuencia de las guerras entre los poderes econ?micos y pol?ticos europeos"

Also right but these nations said to themselves why are they ( Spanish and Portuguese) allowed to go to this part of the world to find wealth and add new countries to their empire when we are not allowed to do so ? Conquently they all joined to attack the Spanish interests in the New world. The French King Fran?ois 1er said that he was also a son of Adam and he did not see any testament forbidding his access to the same wealth and countries.

"Los exploradores y conquistadores espa?oles de los nuevos territorios en Las Am?ricas no estaban en condiciones materiales, pol?ticas ni militares para defender las nuevas posesiones, La Hispaniola en primera fila"

Spanish left la Hispaniola because they had drained most of the gold (Cibao Mountains) and wealth so they left the country in huge numbers for the new world and new conquests ( Peru, Mexico etc). Most of the islands in the caribbeans have been discovered under Colombus and spanish left them for the main continent. This was their biggest mistake because the other European nations occupied those islands and attacked the Spanish boats full of wealth ( gold, pearls, silver) into the caribbean seas.

Spanish even asked for help to la hispaniola because Hugh Thomas wrote in his book about the slave trade that La Hispaniola sent around " 200 spanish speaking blacks very good at fighting" to Peru to help the conquistadores down there in the 1530s.

Spanish lost the Eastern side of la hispaniola because of greed , if they had protected La Hispaniola as they did with Cuba or PR ( El Morro), they would have destroyed the French hoodlums for sure.

When I say Greed , I speak of the monople instaured by the Spanish Royalty and by la Casa de Contracion de Sevilla (forbidding the contrabands, which led to gather the remaining population in the west side of the island). This is what lost the Spanish all over the Caribbeans.

Guadeloupe ( Guadelupe), Martinique, Barbados, Jamaica, Cura?ao and la Hispaniola etc, etc all this islands were neglected by the Spanish Crown because of greed.

What happened to them , is the story of the Thief being stolen ( Le voleur vol?) , because all these islands belonged to the natives being Tainos or Caribs. They also did not have any legal right on these islands.

 

[K-Mel]

Must had that the lost of territory for the DR (as an official and legal country) was 100 % wrong. It seems that it has also been done by the imperialists who did not evaluate all the risks or potential dramas ( el corte..)

What is the solution to be implemented to have some compensation or find a workaround ?

 

[Naked_Snake]

Must had that the lost of territory for the DR (as an official and legal country) was 100 % wrong. It seems that it has also been done by the imperialists who did not evaluate all the risks or potential dramas ( el corte..)

What is the solution to be implemented to have some compensation or find a workaround ?

Well, it could start with actually helping the Haitian nation to get something out of their extensive coastlines and ports (which are better than ours to begin with, f. ex. Fort Liberte) as well as the gold reserves they have buried in their territory. But the international powers at be and the Haitian comprador elite seem to be allergic to this. It involves country-building almost from scratch.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Well, it could start with actually helping the Haitian nation to get something out of their extensive coastlines and ports (which are better than ours to begin with, f. ex. Fort Liberte) as well as the gold reserves they have buried in their territory. But the international powers at be and the Haitian comprador elite seem to be allergic to this. It involves country-building almost from scratch.

Without mentioning, of course, their nearby islands. A restoration would do wonders on Gonave, which is larger than Curacao and many of the other islands in the Eastern Caribbean.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Any discussion of the problems of Haiti needs to begin with the French Colonial Period (1660-1804). The French didn’t really treat Haiti as a colony like the British treated theirs. It was more like an island prison. For 146 years, to the French the entire island of Hispaniola was nothing more than one huge sugar plantation.

Saint Domingue wasn't always like this. From 1629 to the 1670's, the colony used to be a tobacco cultivating, cattle hunting ground of buccaneers and European engages/habitants. Things began to change to what you said in the 1670's, when the first African slaves were introduced in the French colony, and the 1690's when it introduced the cultivation of sugar in the Jamaican/Barbadian/Martinican/Guadaloupean models, due to the bankruptcy of the tobacco cultivation by the monopoly of the West Indian company/royal taxes, as well as the extinction of the wild cattle that used to roam there after the Spaniards vacated in 1605-06. The latter industry couldn't survive due to the French lacking the Spanish tradition of cattle ranching (La Mesta), which goes back to the Middle Ages, or at least this is the thesis of Juan Bosch in his book "Composicion Social Dominicana".

 

[PaGuyinDr]

Interesting to read the historic perspectives, particularly from the French. But in response to the original OP the one thing that Haiti will absolutely resist is MORE foreign occupation. As BeenAway posted, it is already under occupation by MINUSTAH of the UN and still essentially a dependent aid government which will not do much without the approval of the US Canada.

Note that Haiti has attempted a republic for as long as the US has. And that it was cut short when they assassinated President Sam at the turn of the century and the US occupied Haiti for the first time. After the second US occupation, the US simply backed a military dictator to keep order, as the US always prefers that to populism. Then Aristide won in 1990.

So. Really. Modern Haitian democracy can only be said to have begun in 1990 which is an infancy. And then we have a coup, and then a military intervention, a peaceful election, a second election, an insurecction,. oh. I cannot keep it straight. But at least Preval served two terms and retired in his own country.

Add to that hurricanes, floods, the earthquake which is cited as the largest environmental disaster in the hemisphere. And an international community which thought that food sufficiency really should not be a priority but that the population should rely on factory export work.

Can you blame the Haitians for all this? For being in the center of the cocaine routes? For the floods? the earthquakes? Duvalier?

If Balaguer had not given Dominicans stoves and subsidized propane, defended the forests and made the national parks, the Dominicans might still be cooking with charcoal as well.

Great post as we'll!!

 

[PaGuyinDr]

This is one of the best threads I have seen in my brief time on Dr1. Awesome. I don't even pretend to know a fraction of what has been discussed here regarding Haiti. "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it". At least I think that's how the quote goes. It is interesting to hear the perspectives on how Haiti got to such a woeful state. When I see what's posted here, when I watch the news reports of Haiti - post earthquake - I find myself pondering, how that country can ever turn it around.

 

[mountainannie]

Yes, it is good to remember that Haiti was not always this bad. In the 70's it had more tourism than the Dominican Republic. HIV put an end to that. It was exporting food in the 60s. It had its own chicken and egg production. It was self sufficient in rice. With the kreyole pig, the small farmers survived.. ok.. barely.. but they survived. With the African swine fever in the 80s.. came the order from USAID to eradict the little kreyole pig which they did some say to protect the DR pork industry.. as the fever was first detected here. Then the Iowa pigs who ate only grain and five times as much as any Haitian were introduced,, some Haitians say as another "gift" from Uncle Sam.

Gee. Hard for them NOT to think that the white man was trying to wipe them out.

Then came the introduction of the subsidized rice which pretty much collapsed the rice industry.

I was really impressed, though, that the Haitian farmers were savy enough to organize even after the earthquake and protest and march to reject a donation from Monsanto of GMO sterile seeds -- which would have meant that they would have to pay Monsanto every year for new ones.

And there have been lots of books and exposes on the aid industry - both in Haiti and around the world. The Lords of Poverty they are called. The Republic of NGOs as Haiti is called. I heard reports that the majority of the building that went on in PauP after the earthquake was for the Aid workers. Not to mention that the presence of voodu makes Haiti very fertile ground for thousands of various missionaries who set up camp there -- and NONE of them will teach family planning or birth control which is really the one thing that could most help Haiti get out of poverty.

So I have trouble blaming Haiti for the trouble in Haiti.

Particularly now when I see all the publicity for the demonstrations against the elected government now coming out of Boston.

But it also depends on how one measures wealth -- Haiti may be very poor and Haitians do not have much but they can live with almost nothing as the world has witnessed. And the country probably has the least debt of any country in the hemisphere. Certainly less than the DR. CERTAINLY less than the US! They do indeed still have their gorgeous beaches. They do indeed have offshore islands and diving which is better than here. They have an educated and dedicated diaspora which sends home a great deal of money and is extremely loyal.

So I would not close the casket yet.

It will be interesting to see how many Haitians self deport. And if there will be a gap in the work force here from that. It is headline news now in both the national papers in PauP-- how the Haitians are leaving in fear.

The daily wage now in Haiti has been raised to 200 gourdes -- which is about even with the peso - if there is work, of course.. And many Haitians here were working for only 300... so.. well.. time will tell.