Haiti- What does the future hold?

[PeterInBrat]

Let's review:

Me: Haiti would do well if they could catch up to Cuba in 20 years.
You: Cuba's health care sucks, I've experienced it and the US is way better.

Me: Cuba has a better infant mortality rate compared to the US, according to UNICEF
You: Cuba makes up their numbers and say they have the best health care system in the world.

Me: Chavez forgives oil debt to Haiti.
You: Chavez doesn't do any better for the poor than past leaders.

Me: I've known Dominicans who have traveled to Cuba for heath care or been treated by Cuban doctors.
You: I don't know any Dominicans who've gone to Cuba to see a doctor but I've been treated by Cuban doctors in the DR.

Are we arguing the same things??

 

[Tamborista]

Are we arguing the same things??

How are the Psychoanalysts there in Cuba 'cause you really need help Kabob Boy.

 

[pedrochemical]

Most of the expats here come from countries with better health care, education and less poverty etc. etc.

 

[bob saunders]

Let's review:

Me: Haiti would do well if they could catch up to Cuba in 20 years.
You: Cuba's health care sucks, I've experienced it and the US is way better.

Me: Cuba has a better infant mortality rate compared to the US, according to UNICEF
You: Cuba makes up their numbers and say they have the best health care system in the world.

Me: Chavez forgives oil debt to Haiti.
You: Chavez doesn't do any better for the poor than past leaders.

Me: I've known Dominicans who have traveled to Cuba for heath care or been treated by Cuban doctors.
You: I don't know any Dominicans who've gone to Cuba to see a doctor but I've been treated by Cuban doctors in the DR.

Are we arguing the same things??[/QUOTE

Look almost every country that can help Haiti, has been helping them. One, even a left leaning person, can objectively look at all that's going on in Venezuela and see that Chavez is doing a horrible job, and personal freedoms are being trampled upon, as well property rights....etc. You can't read very well - I said there are Cuban Doctors in the DR, and that I doubted very much that there were MANY Dominicans going to Cuba for Medical Care. Key word - MANY. Only doctors I've seen in the DR are - One French Canadian in PP, and one Dominicana in Jarabacoa - BOTH WERE EXCELLENT.

 

[Marianopolita]

Haiti's future depends on its leaders... current and future ones

It's good to see that the majority of posters in this thread share the same disbelief about some of the Haitians' choices and admiration for leadership. I totally disagree with post #15 'Haitians know what side of the bread is buttered, even if they don't have any bread...'. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with what certain countries have contributed $$$ wise or pardoning of debt otherwise a few other countries leader's should also be chosen. Even just looking at the assistance and contributions as a result of the earthquake two leaders come to mind whose faces should be in the picture then- Stephen Harper (Canada) and Leonel Fernandez (DR).

I see the Haitians' choices as a cry out for leadership and in a distorted way Chavez and Castro look like heroes- you know how the saying goes 'empty barrels make the loudest noise'. Look at the countries of those two leaders. Cuba only survives because of tourism dollars and without it, it would easily compete with Haiti for the last spot, the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. If Chavez continues with his ideology, Venezuela will continue going downhill until it hits rock bottom. I think the role of US is evident but how Obama's leadership impacts Haiti is still yet to be known.

The future of Haiti is not solely contingent upon money and equipment to rebuild Port-au-Prince. It's those driving the rebuilding operations and short term and long term planning that is of paramount importance. The future lies in the hands of a competent leader and his/her administration. To even think that some Haitians believe that a 'mano dura' government would help them means they have not learned from what happened during and after the Duvalier regime. Dictatorships, mano dura and military regimes are not favourable forms government anywhere and Latin America has had its fair share. As I said in my previous post 'no es lo mismo llamar al diablo que verlo llegar'. It's the culture of corruption that needs to be eradicated in order for Haiti to reform as a country.



Today marks one month since the earthquake and the way I see the short term and long term outlook is:


Short term- finding homes for the homeless (before the rains begin), tending to the survivors asap or many will die too if they don't get medical attention (priority given to those with damaged limbs because gangrene will cause grave problems), feeding these hungry people on a daily basis, tending to the orphan children, clean up projects and resuming normal activities like school, church, banking etc. In the midst of chaos and disaster life has to carry on. This should be the primary role of the international groups with the aid of the Haitian administration meaning government members such as the PM and others delegated officials.

Long term- Preval needs to step up to the plate and show that he has some political will and power to run the country. He has to work strategically with the Haitian elite and international leaders to rebuild the country or else the scenario at the temporary government offices will be one of chaos. It won't be long before Haitians get really desperate.

Knock, knock, knock....

Who's there...

We are here. The Haitian people.... we need an effective government! Anyone there?


-MP.

 

[Chip]

I don't think Haiti will be going anywhere soon with it's vudu values. After all, if you have been raised since childhood that there is no point in hoping for tomorrow nor that your actions, good or bad, have any consequence, what other than hunger would impel you to get out of bed? As if that weren't bad enough, the way to get ahead depends on how effective your spells on your competitor are. Does this instill a sense of community and fair play?

Sometimes the answer is there but people can't see it for it's simplicity. In this case, pc tells us that we can't criticize a culture because...., well just because. All rationed thinking is discarded out of a distorted sense of morality and courtesy.

If we want Haiti to progess, Haitians need to be raised with hope, a desire to learn, responsability for ones actions and a respect for their fellow man. All of these values are at odds with vudu and so if Haiti is to progress, vudu must go, plain and simple.

 

[mountainannie]

I don't think Haiti will be going anywhere soon with it's vudu values. After all, if you have been raised since childhood that there is no point in hoping for tomorrow nor that your actions, good or bad, have any consequence, what other than hunger would impel you to get out of bed? As if that weren't bad enough, the way to get ahead depends on how effective your spells on your competitor are. Does this instill a sense of community and fair play?

Sometimes the answer is there but people can't see it for it's simplicity. In this case, pc tells us that we can't criticize a culture because...., well just because. All rationed thinking is discarded out of a distorted sense of morality and courtesy.

If we want Haiti to progess, Haitians need to be raised with hope, a desire to learn, responsability for ones actions and a respect for their fellow man. All of these values are at odds with vudu and so if Haiti is to progress, vudu must go, plain and simple.

May I ask where it is that you got your education or information on Voodu and its values? ie that Voodu instills no hope, no desire to learn, no responsibility for their actions or respect for their fellow man?

 

[Squat]

I don't think Haiti will be going anywhere soon with it's vudu values. (...)All of these values are at odds with vudu and so if Haiti is to progress, vudu must go, plain and simple.

I agree...

 

[RonS]

I would like you guys to address Mountainannie's question:

"... where it is that you got your education or information on Voodu and its values? ie that Voodu instills no hope, no desire to learn, no responsibility for their actions or respect for their fellow man?"

While I am far from an adherent of Voodu, I do know that it has been practiced by Africans for hundreds, if not, thousands of years, long before it found its way into the western hemisphere via the african slave trade, and that it was a part of some quite successful west African cultures before the Europeans' colonialization. So again, leaving aside western religious histronics, where is it that you got your education or information?

 

[Marianopolita]

Voodo or no voodo Haiti's political history is the problem...

Since I started this thread I will just make a one time comment about the subject of voodoo since it has made its way into yet another thread.


I have stated my opinion before in another discussion. I believe Haiti's future is tied to its economic and political history and without drastic change starting from the leadership progressing to policies and less corruption, these factors will influence Haiti's future as a country. I agree with RonS in that these popular religions of West Africa were brought to the Caribbean via the slave trade and practicing them in some way, shape or form does not and should not impede the progress of a country. Since I am culturally aware of the Caribbean as a whole (English, French and Spanish-speaking countries), I know that voodoo or similar religious beliefs are practiced under different names in other countries. Therefore, these African based religions/beliefs are not exclusive to Haiti but other countries are not equally poor or unprogressive. They are small island developing nations but no where as dismal economically as Haiti but at the same time one must keep in mind none has had the same history. However, my point being is that popular religions have not impeded progress or development.

One must also keep in mind that not all Haitians are voodoo followers or believers therefore clearly there is a clash of ideals or beliefs among the population. If anything this is an issue of education of a segment of the population.

Article in the Toronto Star today:

The one month anniversary of quake yesterday was marked with religious prayer, spiritual songs and chants in Haiti and this article about the Voodoo religion was posted in the Toronto Star. It does present some concepts that I stated in my post that there is a clash of ideals among Haitians themselves as an estimated sixty percent of the population are followers of voodoo. These followers are shunned by their fellow Haitians which supports my theory that the religion and its beliefs are not the sole reason for Haiti being an impoverished nation. It may be a contributing factor but in my view Haiti is a victim of its own political practices and corruption and voodoo could just be a factor on the periphery nothing more nothing less.

I think the last seven short paragraphs of the article indicate imminent change in Haiti even for the most fervent in their beliefs.

Wells: Voodoo disciples are Haiti's 'outsiders' - thestar.com



-MP.

 

[Chip]

Concerning vudu, don't take my word for it. Instead per our very own pedrochemical(not a real advocate of Christianity by any stretch) who lives in Haiti and whose wife is Haitian:

http://www.dr1.com/forums/828810-post29.html

http://www.dr1.com/forums/828842-post44.html

It's easy to gloss things over from afar...

 

[pedrochemical]

Concerning vudu, don't take my word for it. Instead per our very own pedrochemical(not a real advocate of Christianity by any stretch) who lives in Haiti and whose wife is Haitian:

http://www.dr1.com/forums/828810-post29.html

http://www.dr1.com/forums/828842-post44.html

It's easy to gloss things over from afar...

For the record.

• The first quote is largely about the Christian cult. In fact there is one mention of Voodoo.
• The second quote is ENTIRELY ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN CULT.

Chip, give it up dude!
If God does exist then she is one sick xxxx!!!!

Or does she really just not like Haitians??

Please, give it a rest.

 

[Marianopolita]

Participation from world leaders...

I think the visibility and participation of world leaders in the relief efforts are imperative. Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper will be in Haiti for two days to meet with President Preval and prime minister Jean-Max Bellerive. The focus will be the recovery efforts and long term reconstruction plans for the country.

Prime Minister Harper to visit Haiti to discuss relief, rebuilding efforts

The French President Nicolas Sarkozy will also be visiting this month and his visit will mark the first by a president from France since Haiti's independence. Isn't that incredible?



-MP.

 

[las2137]

There is an article in today's New York Times about the misrepresentation of voodoo:
Myths Obscure Voodoo, Source of Comfort in Haiti

Here is one particularly pertinent clip:

“I’d tell reporters to go into the shanties and find the local voodoo priest,” said Amy Wilentz, the author of an acclaimed book on contemporary Haiti, “The Rainy Season.” “Voodoo is very close to the ground. It’s a neighborhood to neighborhood, courtyard kind of religion. And one where you support each other in time of need.”

(Emphasis mine.)

 

[Marianopolita]

Still unsure what the future holds for Haiti- short and long term

There is an article in today's New York Times about the misrepresentation of voodoo:
Myths Obscure Voodoo, Source of Comfort in Haiti

Here is one particularly pertinent clip:

(Emphasis mine.)

las2137: Thanks for the article. It's interesting and I read it a few times to get a good understanding of what the writer is trying to say. Parts of it echo what I stated in my post #32.

______________________________

As time goes by and the international focus on Haiti lessens, I become more worried about the future of the country and its people. Will past behaviour be indicative of future behaviour? No, I am not casting negativity on the situation but one must wonder how the Haitian government will conquer and endure the difficult task of rebuilding a destroyed city and in many ways the country because change in Haiti is imminent. There has been much skepticism about the UN and their effectiveness post the quake and the current situation of the homeless is a growing concern and should be a top priority of the government.

Canada bit by bit begins to withdraw from Haiti and the same will hold true for other countries that have sent rescue workers since January 12. (See article below). Therefore, what does this mean for Haiti? The international presence will continue to dwindle overtime but how will Haiti cope with the immediate issues that are affecting the day to day lives of Haitians- homeless people and the need for medical care for the injured survivors of the quake.

While meetings abroad are being held by the international community involved in Haiti's recovery plan, the here and the now in my opinion needs to be addressed. Leaders who are actively involved in Haiti's reconstruction forecast anywhere between five to ten years for Haiti to return to where it was before the quake. That's a tremendous and unfortunate setback for a country that has had very little if not no economic growth for decades.

I am a firm believer that Haiti has to own its recovery in the short and long term but with great assistance and guidance from the international community. If corruption could be eradicated overtime because it's not going to happen overnight this country could recover very slowly but surely.

Here are few interesting articles that I have read over the past few days:

English article:

Canada begins military withdrawal from Haiti

Spanish article:

This is one of the best articles I have read about Haiti since the quake.
'Ayudar a Hait? a reconfigurarse'

Ayudar a Hait? a reconfigurarse ? ELPA?S.com



Gone are the days of just sending money to Haiti and everyone involved feels they have done their part. This country needs something bigger and better starting with the government and eventually reaching the people.

According to the PM Jean Max Bellerive:

'Ha?ti veut prendre en main sa reconstruction'- Okay Haiti well the world is waiting to see this happen. IMO, the government owes this to their people.

French article: Ha?ti - s?isme : Ha?ti veut prendre en main sa reconstruction


-MP.

 

[Lambada]

There is an article in today's New York Times about the misrepresentation of voodoo:
Myths Obscure Voodoo, Source of Comfort in Haiti

Here is one particularly pertinent clip:

(Emphasis mine.)

Thanks for that, las2137. One here in a similar vein:

'Religious tension has also increased: Baptists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormons and other missionaries have flocked to Haiti in droves since the earthquake to feed the homeless, treat the injured and jockey for souls. Some Voodoo practitioners have said they've converted to Christianity for fear they will lose out on aid or a belief that the earthquake was a warning from God. "Much of this has to do with the aid coming in," said Max Beauvoir, a Voodoo priest and head of a Voodoo association. "Many missionaries oppose Voodoo. I hope this does not start a war of religions because many of our practitioners are being harassed now unlike any other time that I remember." '

Voodoo practitioners attacked at ceremony for Haiti earthquake victims

 

[jrhartley]

Haiti Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive says anger is no longer felt on Port-au-Prince streets

is the prime minister saying Americans can go home now ?

 

[Chip]

Thanks for that, las2137. One here in a similar vein:

'Religious tension has also increased: Baptists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormons and other missionaries have flocked to Haiti in droves since the earthquake to feed the homeless, treat the injured and jockey for souls. Some Voodoo practitioners have said they've converted to Christianity for fear they will lose out on aid or a belief that the earthquake was a warning from God. "Much of this has to do with the aid coming in," said Max Beauvoir, a Voodoo priest and head of a Voodoo association. "Many missionaries oppose Voodoo. I hope this does not start a war of religions because many of our practitioners are being harassed now unlike any other time that I remember." '

Voodoo practitioners attacked at ceremony for Haiti earthquake victims

Thanks for the rabble rousing.

I dounbt any Christians in Haiti would promote violence, on the contrary, many I met were very peace loving and let people know.

If anything, Haitians are doing what they are accustomed to as old habits die hard.

BTW, with your endless supply of links, why don't you post a few showing what vudu has done for Haiti - I don't expect you can find a lot and probably not even one.

 

[Squat]

I doubt any Christians in Haiti would promote violence, on the contrary, many I met were very peace loving and let people know.

I agree 100%. My experience in Haiti since 97 is that Christians are usually the only ones to come & help, build school, hospitals and of course churches (they are Christians, so don?t expect them to build mosques )
I believe this story about an alleged attack is fabricated by the media to create some hype... It is very fashionable to throw mud at Christians, and defend the "nice & authentic Vaudou practitioner"...

 

[Berzin]

NGO's should help for the sake of helping.

They should either provide secular assistance or get out.

Haitians should decide for themselves who/what/how they choose to worship or not worship when they are on their feet, as opposed to having any religious group of whatever denomination striking fear into their hearts with threats of fire and brimstone when they are down.

Belief should come from within. External influences (which usually come in the form of threats of eternal damnation) become difficult to implement as an instrument of recruitment when you are dealing with an educated and economically stable society.

I find it absolutely repugnant that in light of the destruction that has been heaped upon these people, they have to be subjected to religious indoctrination OF ANY SORT. Poor, uneducated and disenfranchised people can be persuaded to believe in ANYTHING if it means that a particular group would come and help them.

Religious indoctrination of a people in a moment of such profound weakness when they are incapable of making independent, well-informed choices is disgraceful. They should not be coerced into making such choices based on ignorance of the unknown and fear.

But that is par for the course-in a disaster of this magnitude, why not offer the Haitians a contrived salvation and tie it to whatever aid they get? The carrot and the stick scenario for more souls?