Haitians in DR

[macocael]

on stats and opinions

Everyone has an opinion. But some opinions are more valid than others. One can get a whiff of validity by sourcing the factual base of their opinions. That is why I asked. If one has stats, one can usually cite the stats.

Cobraboy, you are probably aware of the famous line attributed to British PM, Disraeli? "There are three kinds of lies, lies, damned lies, and statistics." Just thought I would throw that in there for fun. Sure, I understand where you are coming from and you are not being obtuse at all. On the contrary, you were quite right.

NALs, you might be interested in reading a dissertation I recently came across about the plantations: Industrial Oligopoly and Vertical Integration: The Origins of the American Sugar Kingdom in the Caribbean, 1881 to 1921. The author, Cesar J Ayala, argues that "the seemingly independent US companies producing raw sugar in (Cuba, Puerto Rico and DR) were actually integrated through interlocking directorates, into an oligopolistic refinery-plantation complex centered in the refining industry of the United States. The entire complex encompassing the metropolitan refinery industry and the colonial sugar plantations is labeled the American Sugar Kingdom." Apparently a majority of the plantations were subsumed under this "oligopoly" and thus the Americans controlled not only the majority of plantation land here in DR but also in Cuba and PR. Quite a kingdom.

 

[NALs]

NALs, you might be interested in reading a dissertation I recently came across about the plantations: Industrial Oligopoly and Vertical Integration: The Origins of the American Sugar Kingdom in the Caribbean, 1881 to 1921. The author, Cesar J Ayala, argues that "the seemingly independent US companies producing raw sugar in (Cuba, Puerto Rico and DR) were actually integrated through interlocking directorates, into an oligopolistic refinery-plantation complex centered in the refining industry of the United States. The entire complex encompassing the metropolitan refinery industry and the colonial sugar plantations is labeled the American Sugar Kingdom." Apparently a majority of the plantations were subsumed under this "oligopoly" and thus the Americans controlled not only the majority of plantation land here in DR but also in Cuba and PR. Quite a kingdom.

Sounds interesting.

I'll see if I can get my hands on the dissertation.

-NALs

 

[samana3]

Let me put this simple enough so all the people in this forum could understand
'without the Haitians the economy of The Dominican Republic would be worser than what it already is'

 

[Kyle]

good point, but who didn't know that ??

 

[KeithF]

Where were we? according to the OP, we should de discussing "Hiatians" in the DR (Argh! I hate bad spellers ;-).

...There's absolutely nothing to stop a Haitians from crossing the border into the DR...

...After crossing the rivers on foot, Hatians take the regular bus and motoconcho routes to the main cities...

Three different spellings in one post? Who lives by the sword... :bunny: (or were you being ironic?)

Actually, I'm "low grade dyslexic" so I apologies now and for future reference to the spelling police for mistakes. I usually run a spell check over long posts but not always.

 

[NALs]

Let me put this simple enough so all the people in this forum could understand
'without the Haitians the economy of The Dominican Republic would be worser than what it already is'

That is debatable.

The Dominican economy doesn't necessarily likes or needs Haitians per se. The one thing the Dominican economy loves is cheap labor, actually is more like super cheap labor.

Whomever is willing to work at those super cheap prices for their work is who will be hired.

The alternative would be for Dominican firms to either mechanize their operations, increase multitask among its workers, etc. Such things would result in higher wages for workers, but overall lower costs for firms.

Of course, the alternative to that would be increase the labor supply to keep labor costs low. If labor costs are not low enough, an increase in labor supply would do the trick, infact having a working age population that has a high unemployment rate does wonders to cheapening the prevailing wage rates.

All of these assumptions can be further analyzed and applied to each particular sector and firm of the Dominican economy, but in general such assumptions hold true.

-NALs

 

[Exxtol]

The Dominican economy doesn't necessarily likes or needs Haitians per se. -NALs

Then why use them? :ermm: If the Dominican economy loves super-cheap labor and Haitians provide them with that, common sense would dictate there is indeed a need for, and a desire to recruit this type of labor source.

Cheaper labor supply = greater profits.

-Exxtol

 

[NALs]

Then why use them? :ermm: If the Dominican economy loves super-cheap labor and Haitians provide them with that, common sense would dictate there is indeed a need for, and a desire to recruit this type of labor source.

Cheaper labor supply = greater profits.

-Exxtol

Exxtol, you are saying exactly what I was saying.

However, I think you slightly misunderstood my comment.

Before the Haitians, the one's who supplied cheap labor to the DR was the British West Indies (ie. Cocolos). In fact, they dominated the bateyes, the sugar cane jobs, etc until they made the first and only effective strike during the era of Trujillo in 1946. They demanded higher wages, better living conditions, etc.

How did Trujillo responded? Not by addressing the demands of the Cocolos. He responded by turning to Duvalier in Haiti, made a deal with Duvalier agreeing to be paid x amount of money per Haitian sent to the DR during the zafra.

Why? For the reason we both agree with here, to keep cheap labor cheap.

Now, does that means the DR economy needs Haitians per se? Absolutely not.

The DR economy loves cheap labor, regardless who supplies it.

Yesterday it was the British West Indies who supplied cheap labor, today it's Haiti, tomorrow (if the Haitians become too problematic for Dominican firms in the same manner Cocolos became problematic under Trujillo) it could be some other people from some other place. Or perhaps businesses will finally come the realization that becoming capital intensive is the most natural thing for the DR rather than importing labor to keep a situation that is not suppose to exist in the DR anymore.

The point is that while Haitians are supplying cheap labor today, that in itself doesn't mean the DR needs Haitians, because Haitians are not the only one's who can supply cheap labor just how the Cocolos were not the only ones.

Sure, we can say Haitians are the predominant foreign cheap labor source, but they certainly are not the only ones.

At one point St Lucia, Tortola, Aguilla and other islands were the predominant foreign cheap labor source for the DR and when they demanded an increase in the cost of their labor, Haitians were used to supplant them.

Back then someone could have said the Dominican economy would not exist without the Cocolos and look what happened.

-NALs

 

[Exxtol]

Word play

Why? For the reason we both agree with here, to keep cheap labor cheap.

Now, does that means the DR economy needs Haitians per se? Absolutely not.

The DR economy loves cheap labor, regardless who supplies it.

-NALs

Nals,

Lets stop w/the trivial word play. You seem determined to negate Haitian labor's significance to particular sectors of the Dominican economy. We are not discussing the past nor future. And since we are in the present and the "it" labor supply is currently Haitian in origin, the statement that big business needs haitians is neither subjective or invalid.

It is fact.

--Exxtol

 

[NALs]

Nals,

Lets stop w/the trivial word play. You seem determined to negate Haitian labor's significance to particular sectors of the Dominican economy. We are not discussing the past nor future. And since we are in the present and the "it" labor supply is currently Haitian in origin, the statement that big business needs haitians is neither subjective or invalid.

It is fact.

--Exxtol

Ok, let's leave it at that.

I will end with this: cheap labor is the recurring theme regardless of nationality. That is also a fact.

Every time I go to the store to buy bread, I like it good and cheap. I don't care who made it, I just care that the bread is there, is good, and its cheap when I go to the store to buy.

I say this not for further elaboration into this topic, but to make people think about what I am trying to say. When was the last time any DR1er thought of who was the one who made it possible for them to buy what they buy to live everyday?

I won't be surprised if most people hardly gave any thought to that.

-NALs

 

[Mirador]

Three different spellings in one post? Who lives by the sword... :bunny: (or were you being ironic?)

Actually, I'm "low grade dyslexic" so I apologies now and for future reference to the spelling police for mistakes. I usually run a spell check over long posts but not always.

No, I was not trying to be ironic, and, also, you don't need to apologize for your disability or future misspellings (By the way, I'm dyslexic myself, more like high-grade). Did you hear that the European Commission has selected English as Europe's official language? German was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away. By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w"with "v". During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas. If zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza pepl.

 

[macocael]

NALs, are you certain that Cocolos were the predominate bunch prior to Trujillo? I am fairly certain that the Haitians were already well on their way to being the predominate bunch. Another thing is that there was a great mix of different people here: Puerto Ricans (who came here on boats using the same route that now operates out of Miches to carry Dominicans to PR -- that is apparently how the route got started); Cubans; Gallegos (a considerable number), etc etc. If we lump all the English speaking islanders together, then yes they probably outnumbered the rest -- after all they comprise several islands -- but since the Haitians were close by, they formed a cheap and nearby labor pool that I imagine was heavily exploited from the start. Perhaps Ayala has some info on this.

 

[Mr_DR]

How many times do we have beat this poor horse?

 

[Kyle]

until it looks like this


Kyle while trying to shrink your photo it got erased. If it is your actual desire to publish this picture the I suggest that you try again but first reduce the size so that we don't end up with an extra big thread.

Rick

 

[Chip00]

Macocael

Macocael said:

there are still Dominican peons working the fields

For your information "peon" in English is a VERY derogatory, inflammatory (re: bad) word in the way you used it. If you were to use this word with a native English speaking person they would more than likely think you don't have a good understanding of English or that you were "delusional" in your view of yourself.

 

[Chirimoya]

Macocael said:

there are still Dominican peons working the fields

For your information "peon" in English is a VERY derogatory, inflammatory (re: bad) word in the way you used it. If you were to use this word with a native English speaking person they would more than likely think you don't have a good understanding of English or that you were "delusional" in your view of yourself.

It's no worse than 'peasant'. It means an unskilled, casual labourer. It's a statement of fact. It's a little archaic, although in Indian English it's a common term for a menial worker. Also, maco is a native English speaker and, if I'm not mistaken, has worked as an English professor, so I'm sure he chooses his words carefully.

 

[George Holmes]

I am busy writing a study of rural politics in the DR, and peasant is actually a technical term, as is peon, with a different meaning. Peasant describes someone who farms more land that they own - i.e. they have their own small finca to provide subsistance or produce for the market, but may rent land from a large owner to farm, or get a significant proportional of their income from wage work - echando dia. A peon on the other hand is someone who lives almost exclusively from wage labour, and is particularly tied to a particular landowner, formally or informally. This is similar to what was known in feudal Europe as a serf, but I can't remember the difference. With regards to Indian English, peon has a technical meaning that has entered more widespread use, but I fell asleep in that lecture and don't know the difference.

Peasant is most definately a technical academic term - there is an Institute for Peasant Studies at Yale University, which publishes a journal called Journal of Peasant Studies.
As is it the season of goodwill, remember that a pheasant is a pleasant present for a peasant.

Where I live near Constanza, there are plenty of Haitians in my village who work long hours for poor wages doing strenuous work. The Dominican's most certainly don't want their jobs - in fact they used to have those jobs but left because of the poor wages and illness caused by pesticide application, hence more Haitians came in to take up the slack in the labour market. These Dominicans, almost all women, were then forced to diversify and have integrated themselves into the men's industry of flower growing - the men do the growing and the women make bouquets and sell them at Mercado Modelo in SD. The women are better off than before.

Of course, this is specific to my village, and I would be careful to expand this to the rest of the DR

 

[Chip00]

Peon

It's no worse than 'peasant'. It means an unskilled, casual labourer. It's a statement of fact. It's a little archaic, although in Indian English it's a common term for a menial worker. Also, maco is a native English speaker and, if I'm not mistaken, has worked as an English professor, so I'm sure he chooses his words carefully.

Maybe in Britian or in some academic circles in the US(I doubt it) but as an American professional it IS very demeaning - especially in todays "politically correct" environment and especially the way Maco used it. Example, I guarantee you without a smidgen of a doubt if some person in the US in the "public eye" were ever to use this term it would probably be his last before he was fired or booted out of office - it would just not be tolerated to classify a person in such a manner.

 

[George Holmes]

Peasant and peon are both technical terms based on economic conditions, particularly land ownership. The most literal, but not ideal, translation of peasant into spanish is campesino, which is different from someone who merely lives in the campo. I admit that negative conotations come to the minds of many people when peasant or peon, but there is no other way of accurately describing someone's economic condition. I use the word when speaking to non-academics in english all the time, but there is no real alternative.

In a similar way, describing someone as a slave can be both a literal truth or an insult if it is a figurative description. When I use the words peon and peasant, it is in the former context.

 

[Chip00]

Peasant and peon are both technical terms based on economic conditions, particularly land ownership. The most literal, but not ideal, translation of peasant into spanish is campesino, which is different from someone who merely lives in the campo. I admit that negative conotations come to the minds of many people when peasant or peon, but there is no other way of accurately describing someone's economic condition. I use the word when speaking to non-academics in english all the time, but there is no real alternative.

In a similar way, describing someone as a slave can be both a literal truth or an insult if it is a figurative description. When I use the words peon and peasant, it is in the former context.

Yes there is an alternative that infers nothing about a person's social status - "laborer"