Haitians in DR

Quisqueya

Bronze
Nov 10, 2003
682
0
16
Now on a more serious note. The situation in Haiti is not good. The plane has crashed and unfortunately alot of these innocent people will try to leave there, anyway they can. Most will take yolas to New York(USA) LOL and some will end up in the DR.

Great post Don Rick...just one thing. it's in?til. :glasses: I think we can get some good info on current situation if we post meaniful things such as Mirador and others.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

asopao

New member
Aug 6, 2005
390
6
0
I think that it will be a good idea to open a history thread. The amount of damage(brainwashing) that has caused historical distortions sanctioned by the State, I'm afraid is irreversible :tired:

Just reading Joaquin Balaguer's " La Isla Alrev?s" and his account of history.( just check out his utterly idiotic arguements against historian Jean Price-Mars) will make you cringe. :eek:gre:

can't believe that many Dominicans have taken that thrash as " genuine scholarship".
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,683
3,302
113
Asopao, you have to understand that Joaquin Balaguer was a politician, a caudillo. Thus, you have to define to who he was addressing his theories and speeches when he made certain comments or published certain books.

For example, let's take "La Isla Alreves" as an example.

Did you know what was the real purpose of that book? Most people think that it was a way for Balaguer to bash and discredit Haitians. That certainly appears to be the case if you read that book without knowing anything else about Balaguer or knowing very little of his other books which he published.

Let me explain, in the 1940s when Balaguer was Trujillo's protege, he published a book titled "La Realidad Dominicana". The book is out of print, but it is available in some bookstores in Santo Domingo. Do you know what was the purpose of that book?

He was trying to justify Trujillo's massacre of Haitians by portraying the Haitians as everything that they are not and don't wish to be.

How does "La Realidad Dominicana" relates to "La Isla Alreves"?

It's the same book! In fact, take a copy of "La Realidad Dominicana" and set it side by side with a copy of "La Isla Alreves" and you will notice what I noticed; the two books are word for word the same.

La Isla Alreves was nothing more than a revised version of "La Realidad Dominicana" with a new title and a new chapter at the end.

That final chapter is what gives "La Isla Alreves" it's political meaning which many people have completely missed because they focus on the rest of the book which is a word for word re-print of "La Realidad Dominicana" attempting to justify the Haitian massacre ordered by Trujillo. In fact, some people think Balaguer was ordered to Trujillo to publish "La Realidad Dominicana" as an attempt of justifying such.

What does the final chapter of the revised "La Realidad Dominicana" edition published in the 1980s as "La Isla Alreves" says? In a nutshell, Balaguer explains that Haiti (and by extension Haitians) are uncivilized, ungovernable, incapable of effectively governing themselves. Due to the precarious situation Haiti finds itself politically and economically (in the 1980s although today it's not much differet), Haiti will inevitably put various types of pressures on Dominican society.

In that entire last chapter of "La Isla Alreves", Balaguer pin points Haiti's failure and position himself as the only man capable of helping Haiti move forward.

Like I said at the top of this reply, Balaguer was a master politician, a caudillo taught by Trujillo himself and by extension the US military who trained "Trujillo to think like a marine" as an American southern infantry sargeant once stated. He was positioning himself to be the "savior" of both, the DR and Haiti by putting the situation of Haiti as a proof of Haitian inability to govern themselves and by making himself responsible for the "better" outcome politically and economically of the Dominican Republic.

In his mind, the "superiority" of Dominicans over Haitians is manifested in the political and economic outcome of the two nations and he was the "person fit" to govern the island.

Whether anyone believes everything or some of the things Balaguer proclaimed is another matter, but what is clear is that "La Realidad Dominicana" was a xenophobic publication meant to justify a massacre and "La Isla Alreves" was a revised edition meant to position Balaguer as the only man capable of setting the island of Hispaniola on the path towards progress and modernity.

That was the entire message of "La Isla Alreves".

Most people who are focused on criticizing "La Isla Alreves" are criticizing the book for the wrong reasons, in my opinion. They fail to see the real message in La Isla Alreves and, because many don't know of "La Realidad Dominicana" and much less see the word for word connection between the two books, they fail to see why 90% of "La Isla Alreves" is so anti-Haitian.

Understanding is not forgiving; understanding is accepting reality.

The parts of "La Isla Alreves" that most people criticize are the parts which on their own were geared to a different time period and a different group of people. In fact, "La Realidad Dominicana" had to be accepted by Trujillo in order to be published. The final added chapter which changes the meaning of revised book places Balaguer as the center of progress and modernity on Hispaniola and that is what most criticizers completely missed or ignored.

-NALs
 
Last edited by a moderator:

asopao

New member
Aug 6, 2005
390
6
0
Nals, I know that " isla alrev?s" is an update of " La Realidad Dominicana" published in 1947 :tired:

Dr. Ernesto Sagas mentions that in his book " Race and Politics in DR". Have you read that book?

Anyways, the part I was focusing was 19th century history, as interpreted by lackeys of the tyranny, with characters like Manuel Arturo Pe?a Battle.

Anyways, This belongs in a history thread, not this one. So I'll leave it here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
Walking at night through several of the lower-middle class neighborhoods south of Independencia Ave in Santo Domingo, I've noticed that the surge in newly arrived Haitians are not ghettoizing, but have filled every nook and cranny of available rental space. The Haitians are generally viewed as hard-working, law-abiding and non-meddlesome by their traditional Dominican neighbors.
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
Through time history is often forgotten by those that didn?t live it. In the same token with the passage of time there are many of those that take the ?well it didn?t happen to me ? approach and therefore believe it is unimportant in the present day to day procedure of living.

This seems to be the way that Dominicans seemed to have felt prior to the reign of Trujillo, who had a desire to convey a bad picture of Haitians, and the reign of Balaguer, who reinforced that bad picture. Since the reign of those two ______ (fill in your own choice of words), the Dominican people seem to have once again evolved into that ?live and let live? philosophy.

...

Dominicans, in general, do not take their social or political cues from history books. Not even the economic elite which drives the political establishment. Dominicans are a traditionalistic lot, and carry attitudes which trascend written history, going back to before the Conquest. It is difficult not to miss that most social, political, and economical relevant decisions in the DR are grounded on immediate expediency. To use history to shed light on the current situation of Haitians in the DR, is an exercise in futility. History, unlike science, has always failed to predict future events.
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Mirador,

Why do you wish to use a quote from me to try to prove a point when I haven?t contradicted anything you had to say?

Is it true that Dominicans don?t take their social or political cues from history books? I would say that this is a very true statement and I never said otherwise.

Are Dominicans a traditionalistic lot? I sure do think so and is the main reason there isn?t much change in this country even when those ?traditionalistic? actions have been proven by society to be detrimental to their health and/or wellbeing. This is true of their decisions of supposed ?immediate expediency?.

It is because of history that I am able to use it to shed light on any subject matter in this country. Like the Haitians the Dominicans have failed to learn anything through its history and in reality they keep ?shooting themselves in the foot?.

History and science are two items with many similarities and both must be studied if the end result is to learn anything regardless as to what the subject matter may be. If you fail to study science or read about it you are liable to do something you didn?t predict on happening. If you fail to study or read history you are liable to repeat it.

Now take what you said and integrate it with that which I said and tell me what you come up with.

What?s that you say???? ?Traditionalistic??????

Rick
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
Mirador,

Why do you wish to use a quote from me to try to prove a point when I haven?t contradicted anything you had to say?

Is it true that Dominicans don?t take their social or political cues from history books? I would say that this is a very true statement and I never said otherwise.

Are Dominicans a traditionalistic lot? I sure do think so and is the main reason there isn?t much change in this country even when those ?traditionalistic? actions have been proven by society to be detrimental to their health and/or wellbeing. This is true of their decisions of supposed ?immediate expediency?.

It is because of history that I am able to use it to shed light on any subject matter in this country. Like the Haitians the Dominicans have failed to learn anything through its history and in reality they keep ?shooting themselves in the foot?.

History and science are two items with many similarities and both must be studied if the end result is to learn anything regardless as to what the subject matter may be. If you fail to study science or read about it you are liable to do something you didn?t predict on happening. If you fail to study or read history you are liable to repeat it.

Now take what you said and integrate it with that which I said and tell me what you come up with.

What?s that you say???? ?Traditionalistic??????

Rick

Rick,

You seem to have missinterpreted me. I was not trying to polemize, or contradict you in any way. On the contrary, I was adding to your post, which was to turn away the thread from historical speculation, to the 'here and now' of Haitians in the DR...
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
And for that I humbly apologize Mirador. I see I've played the board jester here and I guess that's of my own demise.

I've been jumped on so many times and it's always through my quotes that I now almost automatically go into the "assume" mode when I see my quotes and you know what they say about the word 'assume'. Case in point.

Rick
 

mixedone

New member
Jan 22, 2007
5
0
0
Great informative debates

I cannot believe the amount of information I have obtained on this site.
I thought all contibutors presented a wealth of information that will assist a lot of people in the years to come. While reading this thread,I felt like I was taking graduate courses at college. The situation in the D.R. and Haiti can at times push human tolerance to uncomfortable levels,however, it is good to know that intelligent and sincere people regardless of their view can express themselves in a very enlightening way.
Such conversations in the past seemed to have brought out the worse in people. I have so much respect for the way this the topic in this thread was handled.
I hope in the near futre, both respected presidents of the D.R. and Haiti try to esablish/continue dialouges that will create not necessarily harmony but a common ground where greviances can be discussed and handled. Mutulal respect among the masses and administration is sorely needed between two countries sharing the same island.
I think this website would be a good model to follow.

Sincerely
mixed-one
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Well Mixed-one we thank you for that and welcome you to DR.1, your 'everything you ever wanted to know about the Dominican Republic' message board.

Rick
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
Well Mixed-one we thank you for that and welcome you to DR.1, your 'everything you ever wanted to know about the Dominican Republic' message board.

Rick

'Mixed' has such an ethnic ring to it, just consider yourself 'eclectic'...;-)
 

KeithF

New member
Jul 9, 2006
395
2
0
www.cabarete.org
KeithF you started this thread and you posted again at #18 with additional questions and statements that were never really addressed and your next post was #45 whereas you were in a tit for tat with Mirador. The question I have is if all your questions were answered that you had on this subject?

Rick, sorry for the delay in replying to your question.

I stopped posting because I had nothing to add to the debate but I had plenty to learn! As 'mixdone' said "while reading this thread, I felt like I was taking graduate courses at college".

I think it answered my question by asking many more questions. In other words, there is (as I kind of suspected) a great many reasons for the current situation between the two people of the neighbouring nations.

I can't help but think that in a way, the boom in DR from tourism etc is having a 'trickle down' effect that benefits Haiti as well but that this will not be enough to help the country up. I also think that the DR economy is now entirely entwined with the illegal migrant workers, in that if illegal immigrants were repatriated it would severely damage the DR economy.

And if that is the case...

then perhaps the Dom Rep would benefit from some kind of 'legal' migration? Give rights to migrant workers and then tax them? Build schools and educate their children. Most economic migrants are hard working, so 'make the most of them' as opposed to 'take advantage of them'?
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
I am of the opinion that this article, ?Cheap labor now creating a problem?, is the straw that may break the camel?s back as it pertains to importing illegal Haitians into this country. I also find it ironic that ?farmers? are the ones complaining when they are the ones that helped generate the present situation as we know it. I also find it ironic that after all the ONG?s and other bleeding hearts crying about the situation of lack of citizenship being provided to Haitian that we are presented with this and this.

That which I find disturbing after these revelations is that which can be done in such circumstances. Can you imagine the 11 million plus illegal immigrants in the US having the ability to vote in the US presidential elections. If they were able and people were to organize and get them to vote in blocks can you invision the end result?

Rick
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
3,563
0
0
The problem is daunting, and the consequences for the DR are dire. The international community (US, Canada, France... with the help of the UN), for the last 15 years, has been pursuing a one island-one nation policy. First, by destroying Haiti's independent political institutions, setting up a de facto trusteeship instead of a national government, promoting caos, maintaining desperate social and economic conditions, in order to provoke the current massive displacement of Haitians towards the relatively better off DR. And at the same time, favoring and supporting an ineffectual government this side of the island, where a corrupt class of politicians have sold their souls, and thus are incapable of avoiding the inevitable...
 

Exxtol

New member
Jun 27, 2005
471
30
0
I also find it ironic that after all the ONG?s and other bleeding hearts crying about the situation of lack of citizenship being and this.

Rick

Rick,

This article wrestles w/mere speculation: Morales Troncoso dijo que aunque no existe una estad?stica precisa sobre la cantidad de haitianos que han sido documentados irregularmente, la realidad es que el dato de un mill?n ?es un c?lculo conservador que nosotros hemos hecho?.

I am not rebutting this figure, but I just wanted to point out that this hasn't been substantiated, nor does this speak of how many Haitians are being denied or granted cedulas legally--this is speaking of number of alleged Haitians receiving cedulas illegaly.


If you ask me this article has done nothing more than engender hysteria (as noted by the commentary of posters) in a country that needs more than xenophobia and politically induced mass hysteria to battle a real and endemic immigration crisis. Los politicos and Troncoso speak of "estadisticas".........but where are the solutions?

--Exxtol
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
0
Mirador you did a very good job of explaining the situation as it has been and does stand here in the DR and in Haiti.

I won't say that those governments you mentioned have in fact done those things that have transpired with the exact intent as you have laid them out only because none of them are smart enough to know exactly what outcome their actions would produce.

The problem with illegal Haitians in the DR has been a problem even before the reign of Trujillo so rather then put the blame on other foreign countries I think it would be proper and fitting to place the blame where it really lies and that would be with the elite Dominicans and I don't mean the Dominican government even though the two work hand-in-hand. The laws are and have been on the books for such things as a Haitian entering this country and the number of Haitians that can be employed by a company. The fact that both of these laws are always being violated proves that those in power are looking the other way when Dominicans afford the Haitians the opportunity to enter this country be it through accepting a bribe, transporting or requesting someone to find employees in Haiti.

I will also agree that the problem is daunting and that the DR is faced with dire consequences for past actions by a lot of different parties. The disheartening part of this dilemma is just like all of the Dominican history in that the elite will break even or prosper from the end result that their greed brings and the average Dominican will continue to suffer. My opinion.

Rick