Helicopter with tourists missing

[wrecksum]

I would doubt this is due to a catastrophic mechanical failure due to poor maintenance.This is rare and normally occurs after maintenance has recently been carried out and a defect has been inadvertently built in.

It seems that decision-making and possible external operational pressures could be a factor.

The terrain on route is not that difficult to fly over unlike certain other parts of the island.Night VFR is perfectly possible,even when not authorised, for just about any pilot and at that time of day should present no problems to an experienced pilot.

GPS navigation and terrain warning are almost certainly fitted,even in most private aircraft and this aircraft was used commercially so poor navigation is unlikely to be a factor.

If it's due to lack of fuel or controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) then there remain many questions yet to be answered,but unfortunately over here,will probably not be fully investigated.

There is no spacial disorientation training required for any civilian pilot certificate as far as I know.Just standard recovery techniques under the hood.The pilot was, I'm told, also military trained so may have been familiar with this phenomenon.

 

[william webster]

you make a good point...

unless I missed it - nobody has mentioned the night was clear and a near full moon.
Vision might not have been a problem

 

[JD Jones]

I would doubt this is due to a catastrophic mechanical failure due to poor maintenance.This is rare and normally occurs after maintenance has recently been carried out and a defect has been inadvertently built in.

It seems that decision-making and possible external operational pressures could be a factor.

The terrain on route is not that difficult to fly over unlike certain other parts of the island.Night VFR is perfectly possible,even when not authorised, for just about any pilot and at that time of day should present no problems to an experienced pilot.

GPS navigation and terrain warning are almost certainly fitted,even in most private aircraft and this aircraft was used commercially so poor navigation is unlikely to be a factor.

If it's due to lack of fuel or controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) then there remain many questions yet to be answered,but unfortunately over here,will probably not be fully investigated.

There is no spacial disorientation training required for any civilian pilot certificate as far as I know.Just standard recovery techniques under the hood.The pilot was, I'm told, also military trained so may have been familiar with this phenomenon.

He also should have known how to do an autorotation. I'm still wondering about that one.

 

[cavok]

The FAA safety sim doesn't do radical angles. It just makes you lose complete touch with your physical orientation.

The seat is the revolving pivot point, so at first you really don't feel a whole lot. But after a half dozen instructions from ATC where you change heading or altitude, he asks you to change transponder settings like you're being handed off to a different center. And when you reach to change the transponder...wham!...your inner ears move off center and disorientation hits you all at once, your head starts spinning and after that it's an internal battle between "trust the instruments" and "WTF is going on, which end is up?"

I never felt the latter in IFR training or any other time. Even in the soup I never felt disoriented. I actually enjoyed bad attitude recovery, it's like a step-by-step game. Spin training never bothered me at all.

I saw a picture of the box you were in. It looks like a modern version of the chair I was in and is a more realist flight simulation but, the result is the same.

You were rotating in the box and the instructor had you put your head down by telling you to look at the transponder. I was rotating in the chair with my head down and eyes closed and then the instructor stopped the chair and told me to raise my head and open my eyes. Same principal and wicked disorientation. This could only be duplicated during a prolonged spin or graveyard spiral so, it is never demonstrated, nor required in actual pratice.

This is the reason the FAA advises against "rubber necking" while in IMC conditions. Even that can produce the same type of disorientation - just not anywhere near as severe. The maneuvering that the instructor did during my unusual attitude training is an attempt to produce the same sense of disorientation.

I've never actually experienced this disorientation either during sim training or actual flying but, as I said, some pilots are more susceptible than others and experience and training is a factor.

 

[cavok]

I would doubt this is due to a catastrophic mechanical failure due to poor maintenance.This is rare and normally occurs after maintenance has recently been carried out and a defect has been inadvertently built in.

It seems that decision-making and possible external operational pressures could be a factor.

The terrain on route is not that difficult to fly over unlike certain other parts of the island.Night VFR is perfectly possible,even when not authorised, for just about any pilot and at that time of day should present no problems to an experienced pilot.

GPS navigation and terrain warning are almost certainly fitted,even in most private aircraft and this aircraft was used commercially so poor navigation is unlikely to be a factor.

If it's due to lack of fuel or controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) then there remain many questions yet to be answered,but unfortunately over here,will probably not be fully investigated.

There is no spacial disorientation training required for any civilian pilot certificate as far as I know.Just standard recovery techniques under the hood.The pilot was, I'm told, also military trained so may have been familiar with this phenomenon.

The FAA doesn't require actual inflight spatial disorientation training becuase for the most part it is difficult to simulate and generally not practical nor safe to demonstate.

The principals of spatial disorientation as well as their causes and effects are, however, required by the FAA to be to be taught and are found in many FAA advisory circulars and pilot handbooks.

 

[dom]

why would he be disoriented, he was on final approach in a perfect straight line to la romana airport, from the distance he was he could see the airport !!

 

[william webster]

back to the gas gauge theory,,,,

 

[playacaribe2]

why would he be disoriented, he was on final approach in a perfect straight line to la romana airport, from the distance he was he could see the airport !!

If he was on final, he should have been in contact with ATC in La Romana. Maybe they can provide some insight. I am still not convinced that he ran out of fuel because he miscalculated his fuel needs.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[wrecksum]

The fuel question should be easy to answer with very little investigation.

This aircraft runs on jet fuel which is normally only available at fixed bases,such as POP or La Romana for example.A fuel delivery slip is issued at every fuelling and a copy kept by the fuel company.The aircraft's take offs and landings are also on file with ATC.

Knowing the endurance, fuel uplift,distance flown and consumption of the aircraft should provide a reasonable guide to fuel required and fuel on board.The only remaining difficulty would be determining how much was on board before the last refuelling if it were not a top-off to full tanks.

When filing the flight plan by radio or paper one is obliged to state the fuel on board at departure so this record should be also available.
I have flown several types (but not rotary wing) and have never yet seen a satisfactory low fuel warning system. Guages are for in flight guidance not trip planning.By the time the low pressure light is on it's already too late and tank level warnings are notoriously unreliable.

If this does not give an indicator for the accident,assuming low fuel that is, then maybe an undetected leak,although highly unlikely, could be a causal factor.

So,we wait.

 

[wilsonito]

Hello,

Could you please elaborate on this? Did you see the helicopter personally?

Lost some close family in the accident, and trying to obtain some clarity on the cause.

Thanks so much.

 

[wilsonito]

It's true. He landed in Maimon Bonao on the baseball field by my house and waited for a truck to come by with jet fuel.

Hello,

Could you please elaborate on this? Did you see the helicopter personally?

Lost some close family in the accident, and trying to obtain some clarity on the cause.

Thanks so much.

 

[JD Jones]

Condolences to the families of the deceased. On a more logical note; it does not surprise me unfortunately.. as a few others have pointed out with domain knowledge of the crafts that they are more than likely poorly maintained; companies in Dominican do not have enough accountability to maintain the crafts. Only aircraft I would ever get on would be European or North American.

Danilo has had two separate incidents in the last few weeks where his helo had to do an unscheduled landing due to mechanical issues, the latest was yesterday or the day before.

There has been a rash of accidents both here and abroad involving Dominican Crews and maintenance issues.

As I mentioned before, my friend who worked in the airport as a mechanic said he would never fly on an aircraft after what he had seen being done for maintenance here.

Looks like he was right.

 

[KateP]

Hello,

Could you please elaborate on this? Did you see the helicopter personally?

Lost some close family in the accident, and trying to obtain some clarity on the cause.

Thanks so much.

I have no info but I'm sorry for your loss. Answers in these types of incidents are always very hard to get. You might want to consider hiring a professional to analyze whatever info you can get.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

 

[JD Jones]

Hello,

Could you please elaborate on this? Did you see the helicopter personally?

Lost some close family in the accident, and trying to obtain some clarity on the cause.

Thanks so much.

The reason for the crash was they ran out of fuel.

Even without fuel, the pilot should have been able to do an autorotation to land it unless it was too dark and he couldn't determine his altitude.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[IslandDreaming]

The reason for the crash was they ran out of fuel.

Even without fuel, the pilot should have been able to do an autorotation to land it unless it was too dark and he couldn't determine his altitude.

Sorry for your loss.

Altitude also. If he/she were "tree hopping" there wouldn't be enough residual energy in the blades to auto rotate

I don't profess to know shi* about rotors but have had the unfortunate experience to have been exposed to them a couple times recently Being a pilot (fixed wing) and in front seat (Bell 407 Jet Ranger) I took advantage of the Pilot’s offer for the “pitch hitter course” This was a basic overview of flight controls which convinced me I didn’t have a prayer if she were incapacitated

The Bell Jet Ranger and EC120b are somewhat in the same class so the lesson I receivedm a quick intro on auto rotation pertaining to the Bell transfers to the Eurcopter somewhat

Helicopters have something called a “height/velocity curve.” Like a fixed wing, helos have a maximum rate of climb but surprisingly it is not based on their ability to climb but to the amount of energy stored in the blades in case of auto rotation.

Confused yet? same here, basically the lighter the helo the less energy stored so something like the little Robinson’s have very little chance of an auto rotation where a CH 53 has literally tons of energy available for engine out performance

Anyway, I’m sure you realize I have little knowledge of helos by this confusing post, so if anyone can provide a better picture of autorotation, PLEASE

 

[Cdn_Gringo]

The weight of the helicopter plus the pitch of the rotor blades and forward movement will keep the rotors spinning at a minimum speed if power is lost. This auto-rotation reduces the speed that the craft falls from the sky. AR onto flat terrain without obstacles is in many cases survivable. The impact is going to be hard and may well break the struts or parts of the undercarriage.

Provided there is very little forward momentum (most helicopters do not have wheels) at the time of touchdown, the craft can remain upright. If not it pitches forward and rolls over - much worse.

As with fixed winged craft, a safe emergency landing requires pilot skill and flat terrain free from obstacles such as trees, big rocks or anything else that the aircraft might hit. In the dark, if the helicopter pilot cannot see the ground approaching it can be difficult to curtail forward speed (required for auto-rotation) just before touchdown.

Obviously an unpowered landing on any sort sloping terrain is that much more difficult.

 

[wrecksum]

Referring to the lifestyle incident.

Accidents like these are always the domino effect and not one main cause.
He was low on fuel before taking off on the final leg to La Romana.All aircraft are a compromise between fuel load and pax load so it's likely he could not safely load the full required fuel on departure from POP.There is no fuel to my knowledge in Rio San Juan or casa de campo heliport but can't be absolutely sure of that.There could be a private stock but doubtful.

They were running late as is usual so pressure is on to get home.

There is no fuel in Rio San Juan and a refuelling diversion to El Catey would have probably put them too late to depart.
The pilot thought he could make it with the fuel on board.

There are considerable sanctions on a pilot,especially an active military one,which he was,should an unscheduled landing be required due to pilot error so this also places pressure to get there.Plus there would need to be jet fuel delivered to the place of the emergency landing causing many more problems.

Auto rotation requires height,and or airspeed and an extensive clear area,none of which he had.

He just needed about 3 minutes more fuel for a successful landing at his destination but didn't have them..

Ain't life a bitch.

 

[ljmesg]

Referring to the lifestyle incident.

Accidents like these are always the domino effect and not one main cause.
He was low on fuel before taking off on the final leg to La Romana.All aircraft are a compromise between fuel load and pax load so it's likely he could not safely load the full required fuel on departure from POP.There is no fuel to my knowledge in Rio San Juan or casa de campo heliport but can't be absolutely sure of that.There could be a private stock but doubtful.

They were running late as is usual so pressure is on to get home.

There is no fuel in Rio San Juan and a refuelling diversion to El Catey would have probably put them too late to depart.
The pilot thought he could make it with the fuel on board.

There are considerable sanctions on a pilot,especially an active military one,which he was,should an unscheduled landing be required due to pilot error so this also places pressure to get there.Plus there would need to be jet fuel delivered to the place of the emergency landing causing many more problems.

Auto rotation requires height,and or airspeed and an extensive clear area,none of which he had.

He just needed about 3 minutes more fuel for a successful landing at his destination but didn't have them..

Ain't life a bitch.

Sounds like Heli Russian Roulette Dominican Style. What a roll of the dice to come up craps with.

 

[william webster]

Write it of as human error....
If the gas guessing theory is true....

Yes, like shooting craps...... Russian Roulette style

Tough game
Oftentimes, the ‘paying customer ‘ isn’t a patient one...
That adds to the equation